My 172 at the Nordschleife [VIDEO]
Discussion
Track knowledge is the key as this demonstrates, I think my mate in the Evo could have passed me on the straight up towards the Karusell, but he hung back for the good of the footage. Ripped him up in the corners though 
Was a relatively quick lap, but nothing special, only got passed by a F430 on the run down to Adenau Bridge, managed to overtake a few bikers and a slow chap in a Caterham 7 type thingy towards the end of the lap.
Timed at 9m 31s Bridge to Gantry including slowing for a bike crash just after Flugplatz, one of the fastest parts of the circuit. Weather was very warm and had the air-con on full whack
Seemed to be hitting around the 9 minute mark or just over throughout the course of the week. This was a standard 172 with crap tyres. Hopefully sub 9 minute next year with decent rubber and bigger cojones.
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?d
Was a relatively quick lap, but nothing special, only got passed by a F430 on the run down to Adenau Bridge, managed to overtake a few bikers and a slow chap in a Caterham 7 type thingy towards the end of the lap.
Timed at 9m 31s Bridge to Gantry including slowing for a bike crash just after Flugplatz, one of the fastest parts of the circuit. Weather was very warm and had the air-con on full whack
Seemed to be hitting around the 9 minute mark or just over throughout the course of the week. This was a standard 172 with crap tyres. Hopefully sub 9 minute next year with decent rubber and bigger cojones.
http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?d
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 1st November 18:45
Had the clio a couple of months dude, couldn't think of anything else I fancied for that kind of money. Did alright on track though!
Still got the 205, decided to take it off the road for the winter and see if I can get some more work on it to make it into a full on track weapon (seam welded, full challenge spec cage etc). It's too much fun to break. Took it out last week and it made me laugh my tits off, I reckon it'd run rings round the clio to be honest mate!
The clio is good for the commute.... air con, leather, alcantara, climate control, xenons, 30mpg
We should meet up soon for a beer, although I'm working in London until 10th December :-(
Still got the 205, decided to take it off the road for the winter and see if I can get some more work on it to make it into a full on track weapon (seam welded, full challenge spec cage etc). It's too much fun to break. Took it out last week and it made me laugh my tits off, I reckon it'd run rings round the clio to be honest mate!
The clio is good for the commute.... air con, leather, alcantara, climate control, xenons, 30mpg
We should meet up soon for a beer, although I'm working in London until 10th December :-(
If you are aware of your limits, respect the track, and keep an eye out on other kamikaze drivers and bikers especially, then it's fine. It does have a reputation as a bit of a widowmaker, but as long as you don't go out there with a "I've lapped it in 8 minutes on the Playstation therefore my *insert car name here* can easily do a 7:45 lap" attitude, personally I feel it's no worse than a normal UK trackday.
I've had more hairy moments round Cadwell Park than I have at the 'ring. I'm no expert mind you, I've only got about 35 laps under my belt, but I do have a healthy respect of the Nordschleife (and my car!)
Mac
I've had more hairy moments round Cadwell Park than I have at the 'ring. I'm no expert mind you, I've only got about 35 laps under my belt, but I do have a healthy respect of the Nordschleife (and my car!)
Mac
gutmann pug said:
Plenty more to come from that car. 8.45 shouldnt be too difficult, not that time means shit other than for pub talk.
One of the reasons videoing was banned was that footage showing accidents was ending up on the net. Might be worth thinking about.
Gary
One of the reasons videoing was banned was that footage showing accidents was ending up on the net. Might be worth thinking about.
Gary
I know, naughty boy for filming but some rules are made to be bent a little! I know filming is banned, but as long as you don't take the piss I think it's ok. A couple of laps filmed here and there won't harm as long as you are careful with the content. I think if any of my footage contained accidents I would be morally obliged to keep it out of the public domain for legal/insurance/pride reasons for the persons involved.
You're again totally right about lap times, for me it's about the enjoyment of the place, the length, undulations, elevation changes, camber changes, the view, and the other cars. Times don't really mean jack shit in the real world, other than to bring up over dinner in the evening to embarass your supercar owning buddies ;-)
Put me in a Mini with 50hp and I'm sure I'd enjoy the place just as much, timing is only a very small way of measuring a lap. It's probably better to try and improve yourself without bringing numbers into play, did I remember all of the corners in the correct sequence, were my braking and turning in points perfect? Did I get on the power too soon/too late coming out of the bends, did I anticipate what other cars/bikes were doing? Did I get my gear selection right, were my gearchanges smooth? Did my passenger feel safe? Did I look after the car? Stuff like that.
I don't think I'd ever set off to time a lap from the car on a stopwatch, what we tended to do was film the laps, go home, crack open the Bitburger in the hotel and de-brief and find out what times we were all hitting, at the same time as taking the piss out of each other when we had any brown trouser moments. For me, the banter post-lapping is almost as much fun as the daytime activities
(almost) You were actually out there that weekend Gary, but I never spotted you on-track or in the car park while you were in the 205, I'd have liked to see how they perform out there (see my profile, I also have one!)
boxsey said:
So if that's the 35th time you've been round there (it looked a confident drive BTW) what was it like the very first time you drove it?
Absolute choas
My first lap was in September 2005
I'd driven it on the PS2, but it's no comparison. My heartrate was through the roof, my palms were sweaty, I couldn't speak much on the lap becasue I was concentrating too much! I had no idea where the track went and I spent more time looking in my mirror diving out of the way of much faster cars than I did enjoying the lap. The first couple of laps weren't that enjoyable as I was so tense and worked up.
After about 5 laps I started to relax a little and get into the groove, and you find yourself getting overtaken less. The GT3s and CSLs still fly past but you find yourself having more 'space' on track if that makes sense, as the speed differential between yourself and other traffic becomes less. I'm not super quick now, but I'm not too bad, and know the corners relatively well, and it doesn't intimidate me as much as it used to. Haven't driven it in the wet though, not looking forward to that!
Mac, many thanks for that. Very useful feedback. I (and a few others) are aiming to do it for the first time in the spring. I guess it's preferable to have a passenger so that you have a second pair of eyes with so much going on? My mindset at the moment is just to drive it as an unknown road i.e. pay attention to the disappearing point and adjust my speed accordingly. Cheers again. 
I would strongly suggest getting at least one passenger lap before venturing out in your own car. It will let you know where there are any corners which you may have misjudged if driving on sight alone (the vanishing point rule could see you exit some corners off the track - adenau forst for example is a classic). I know it's difficult, but going across at Easter isn't necesserily great for your first few laps as the place is getting busier and busier. Also be aware that depending upon what kind of winter Europe has this year, 'late spring' may see snow on the track!
Mac, I have made more than the odd one or 2 visits this year so it's possible you were there the same time as me
If you havent already seen it this is my 205 on crappy A539 tyres. The engine is pretty much a standard 120K knackered smoking french thing. But it seems to hustle on pretty well www.northloop.co.uk/videos_pug.htm
Getting experience at the ring is something which should be done slowly. Take as many passenger laps with experienced ringers as you can and build your own speed slowly. Do that, keep an eye in the rear view mirror and you should progress nicely.
Gary
If you havent already seen it this is my 205 on crappy A539 tyres. The engine is pretty much a standard 120K knackered smoking french thing. But it seems to hustle on pretty well www.northloop.co.uk/videos_pug.htm
Getting experience at the ring is something which should be done slowly. Take as many passenger laps with experienced ringers as you can and build your own speed slowly. Do that, keep an eye in the rear view mirror and you should progress nicely.
Gary
boxsey said:
Mac, many thanks for that. Very useful feedback. I (and a few others) are aiming to do it for the first time in the spring. I guess it's preferable to have a passenger so that you have a second pair of eyes with so much going on? My mindset at the moment is just to drive it as an unknown road i.e. pay attention to the disappearing point and adjust my speed accordingly. Cheers again.
Like the other guys have said, it would help you if you could get a couple of passenger laps first so at least you get to see what the track looks like in the flesh without having to worry about driving. There is a very friendly atmosphere in the car park, and often just striking up conversation with someone results in a passenger lap.
In terms of having a passenger in the car, I don't think it helps in terms of the cars behind you, as you can see in the mirrors more than they can, and are therefore more aware of whats going on beforehand. Most of the time my passengers were just holding on quietly.. hehe
What is good though is to have a sensible passenger who can calm you down a bit, as what tends to happen is that I set off nice and easy, and by the time I get to the Foxhole I'm perhaps a little high strung and might try pushing too hard. A passenger is always good who can just have a quick word... "calm down" or "chill a bit" when things get hairy. It certainly helped me in my early laps when I got a bit carried away with myself.
It sounds daft, but I also found talking to myself helped.... brake, 3rd gear, turn in late, power on NOW, up into 4th, stay left, over the crest back down into 3rd... stuff like that helps you to remember where you can improve on the next lap if you felt your gear selection wasn't quite spot on.
Let me know if you need more info, I always like talking about this place
Good luck
Mac
Thanks to all three of you above for the replies and sound advice. This is proving to be a very handy thread for me 
.
Indeed there will be some experienced 'ringers in the party and I fully intend to do passenger laps myself first. One is so experienced (averages half a dozen trips per year)and very quick in his Boxster S (8 minute something I believe) that he might end up putting me completely off driving it myself
.
By spring, I should have said very late spring, it'll be end of May at the earliest which will be a good thing considering Fergus' point about snow on the ground.
BTW I have done some track days and will be doing more before I go. I realise the 'ring is a completely different kettle of fish but at least I won't be totally green by the time I set eyes on the place.
Thanks again guys. Keep the advice coming.
. Indeed there will be some experienced 'ringers in the party and I fully intend to do passenger laps myself first. One is so experienced (averages half a dozen trips per year)and very quick in his Boxster S (8 minute something I believe) that he might end up putting me completely off driving it myself
. By spring, I should have said very late spring, it'll be end of May at the earliest which will be a good thing considering Fergus' point about snow on the ground.
BTW I have done some track days and will be doing more before I go. I realise the 'ring is a completely different kettle of fish but at least I won't be totally green by the time I set eyes on the place.
Thanks again guys. Keep the advice coming.
End of May should be good, personally I'd avoid the Easter weekend, as it seems that there's a HUGE British contingent that heads over for what is usually the first full tourist weekend of the season. Becasue of that, there are a lot of 'winter-frustrated' newbies who once the barrier lifts, go at it hammer and tong. From what I've read on numerous trip reports online is that more time is spent with the track closed than actually open over this particular weekend!
My most enjoyable laps have been weekday evening sessions in August/September, where the car park is perhaps half full, and there are a few quick locals out. These laps tend to be the quietest and most stress-free ones as there are less bikers out than the weekend sessions where everybody within a 50 mile radius seems to be trying to get in the car park!
There's something special about the end of summer evening sessions, the air is cool, the track is warm, and the sun is gradually dropping beneath the trees in the distance, and the valleys are bathed in a warm orange glow. Fantastic stuff!
My most enjoyable laps have been weekday evening sessions in August/September, where the car park is perhaps half full, and there are a few quick locals out. These laps tend to be the quietest and most stress-free ones as there are less bikers out than the weekend sessions where everybody within a 50 mile radius seems to be trying to get in the car park!
There's something special about the end of summer evening sessions, the air is cool, the track is warm, and the sun is gradually dropping beneath the trees in the distance, and the valleys are bathed in a warm orange glow. Fantastic stuff!
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 7th November 15:00
I've been out there in 612bhp Mercs, 911 Turbos, Exiges, Caterhams and NSXs but the most fun I've ever head at the Ring was a couple of months ago when a bunch of us went out there in £100 Ford Sierras. Brilliant laugh. You'll get more satisfaction from getting a perfect line in a shitbox than you will running a fast but raggedy lap in an SL65 AMG.
Your lap looked reasonably neat. I can see a number of places where you could be making quite a bit of time.
Your lap looked reasonably neat. I can see a number of places where you could be making quite a bit of time.
Edited by bad_roo on Tuesday 7th November 17:48
bad_roo said:
I've been out there in 612bhp Mercs, 911 Turbos, Exiges, Caterhams and NSXs but the most fun I've ever head at the Ring was a couple of months ago when a bunch of us went out there in £100 Ford Sierras. Brilliant laugh. You'll get more satisfaction from getting a perfect line in a shitbox than you will running a fast but raggedy lap in an SL65 AMG.
Your lap looked reasonably neat. I can see a number of places where you could be making quite a bit of time.
Your lap looked reasonably neat. I can see a number of places where you could be making quite a bit of time.
Edited by bad_roo on Tuesday 7th November 17:48
About a fortnight before I went out there, the little white dots were repainted on the turn-in points and the apexes of the corners which helped significantly.
There are four main corners that I can't seem to get right, the first one one is Adenaur Forst, I'm not sure of the line into the first tight left hander. The second one I have trouble is Ex-Muhle, I can never seem to pick the right turn in point and I always seem to bog down exiting the corner up the hill. It's too fast for second gear, and third gear doesn't have enough pull. This slows me down up the hill to Bergwerk.
The third one I can't seem to nail is the tight right hander just before the small run up to the Karusell... I can't remember it's name, and the last one that I annoy myself with is the left hander just before Hohe Acht, I seem to scrub of too much speed because it looks worse than it is, and I always curse myself afterwards (could have taken that in 4th, not 3rd! - DAMN!)
If you can give me some pointers that would be great! (Bear in mind I was the car in front on that video, not the chase car)
Cheers
Mac
Mac,
Not easy to see your line through Adenauer Forst but I suspect you're turning in a little late and getting sucked towards the middle of the track for turn-in. Ex-Muhle is very gearing specific and it helps if you have a lot of torque. Try it in third with a more aggressive corner entry speed. If you've played GT4, you're likely to be treating this corner with too much deference. In the game you lose grip as you proceed through the corner. In real life grip comes to you and because it's so sharply uphill, your corner entry speed can feel very sporty but the hill will scrub speed off.
The theing to remember with the Steilstrecke Kurve is to get your braking done in a disciplined manner, aiming in a straight line gently left and remember that you have a TON of track to play with here, so balance power and steering using all of the exit. The clipping point is, as a result, a little earlier than you might expect.
Not sure if you're talking about the first left hander after the Karusell (which should be flat in a Clio 172) but I suspect you're thinking about the second. It's easy to get over aggressive here and ruin the next corner, especially as the turn in dot on the track is painted hopelessly late for the right hander. The close vanishing point on this corner gives many the willies, but this is one of the few corners on the track where a late turn in can really ruin a section.
Roo
PS - When you turn left at T13, don't then veer to the left of the circuit. Stay right and let the next gentle right hander move you into a position on the left hand side of the track for the next right hander. The same goes for when you accelerate out of Hocheichen. Stay right as you head into Quiddelbacher Hohe and let the track rather than the steering rack do the work for you, moving you left up towards Flugplatz. In a very powerful car you may want to avoid some of the sharper tarmac transitions here but theClio'll handle 'em fine.
That's enough typing from me. It's tea time.
Not easy to see your line through Adenauer Forst but I suspect you're turning in a little late and getting sucked towards the middle of the track for turn-in. Ex-Muhle is very gearing specific and it helps if you have a lot of torque. Try it in third with a more aggressive corner entry speed. If you've played GT4, you're likely to be treating this corner with too much deference. In the game you lose grip as you proceed through the corner. In real life grip comes to you and because it's so sharply uphill, your corner entry speed can feel very sporty but the hill will scrub speed off.
The theing to remember with the Steilstrecke Kurve is to get your braking done in a disciplined manner, aiming in a straight line gently left and remember that you have a TON of track to play with here, so balance power and steering using all of the exit. The clipping point is, as a result, a little earlier than you might expect.
Not sure if you're talking about the first left hander after the Karusell (which should be flat in a Clio 172) but I suspect you're thinking about the second. It's easy to get over aggressive here and ruin the next corner, especially as the turn in dot on the track is painted hopelessly late for the right hander. The close vanishing point on this corner gives many the willies, but this is one of the few corners on the track where a late turn in can really ruin a section.
Roo
PS - When you turn left at T13, don't then veer to the left of the circuit. Stay right and let the next gentle right hander move you into a position on the left hand side of the track for the next right hander. The same goes for when you accelerate out of Hocheichen. Stay right as you head into Quiddelbacher Hohe and let the track rather than the steering rack do the work for you, moving you left up towards Flugplatz. In a very powerful car you may want to avoid some of the sharper tarmac transitions here but theClio'll handle 'em fine.
That's enough typing from me. It's tea time.
Mac and all the other guys interested. I'm part of a very good forum which is centred almost 100% around the Nurburgring. If you want to chat with like minded individuals we can be found on the forum linked to www.northloop.co.uk
bad roo is also a member
bad roo is also a member
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