BMW Car Club track days.......some tyres banned...
Discussion
I'm sorry this is so long. I have posted this message on a number of BMW sites, but it might be important for all track day enthusiasts. It relates to BMWCC banning the use of road-legal race tyres on their track days in the interests of safety. Perhaps the Porsche or Subaru clubs will follow?????
I had a long chat with Chris Wadsley today to find out what is going on. He is organising the Hethel day, and he's one of the BMWCC instuctors.
Basically, the club has been alarmed at the number of accidents occuring over the last couple of years on their track days. I pointed out to Chris that all the accidents that I had seen had been with inexperienced drivers over-doing it. They all had standard road tyres on. I must say that looking at some of them and their cars, I wondered if any of them had checked their oil levels, let alone their grey stuff between their ears.
Chris agreed that these folks were responsible for the majority of the accidents, and it seems he has a VERY difficult job getting them to calm down. They just don't listen to him. Hmmmmmmmmmm. Last year at Cadwell, nobody crashed. However, a total prat in a brand new Compact span right on front of me before the Mountain and I nearly collected him. He was a novice who was too excited and who had decided to see what the result of turning off the traction control might be. Good one, fella. I reported him to the organisers.
So, the sticky tyres question. Chris agreed that higher cornering speeds hadn't necessarily caused any crashes at BMWCC track days as yet. The thinking is that something bad might happen as a result of increased cornering speeds. Banning sticky tyres would be seen as a pre-emptive strike to prevent a high speed accident. Chris thinks that everyone with sticky tyres should swap them for a set of worn out road tyres. Lancelot had an intersting point about this, as above.
It's a pitty I spent so much on Dunlop Formula-R's then. Oh well, I'll use them at other track days.
I reckon that the club will have a difficult time ahead of them in terms of keeping the track days going. Chris said that that club bigwigs wanted to stop them all together before a big accident happened. He argued strongly for the track days to continue, and he has been allowed to do more of them, but with a few promises to keep on his (i.e. the organisers') part. They will be even tougher on clowns who over-do it. The term "track day" will no longer be used. "Better driving day" will be used always. They will ban sticky tyres. However, slicks on race cars will be allowed, because their drivers, "don't want to crash their valuable cars". Well neither do I want to crash my valuable Sport Evo.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to be in his position. But it strikes me that the crashes happen to the beginners as a general rule. The experienced drivers look after themselves no matter what tyres they are using, and they don't often spin or crash.
Perhaps the club should let the experienced group use sticky tyres. That would exclude me, as I run in the novice group (near the front owing to my fast car). However, if they ban sticky tyres for good, then quite a few folks will stop going to BMWCC's track days. This is an important issue because of the poor attendences at some track days. Look at Croft the year before last, and Bedford too. Cancellations of the less popular days may be the result.
Again, I stress that Chris and his colleages in the club have a difficult job here, but we had no warning whatsoever about this. There was no consultation with the regular track day crowd, and I don't think the recent survey of track day drivers counts. They could have sent a letter to the regulars and asked them to write into the magazine for a special, extended letters page, or something. The club can see what I see, though, and that is the end of track day insurance on regular policies for individul cars, and the chance of seriously painful litigation if someone gets badly hurt.
Let me know what you think.
John W
>>> Edited by johnny senna on Saturday 22 February 19:33
I had a long chat with Chris Wadsley today to find out what is going on. He is organising the Hethel day, and he's one of the BMWCC instuctors.
Basically, the club has been alarmed at the number of accidents occuring over the last couple of years on their track days. I pointed out to Chris that all the accidents that I had seen had been with inexperienced drivers over-doing it. They all had standard road tyres on. I must say that looking at some of them and their cars, I wondered if any of them had checked their oil levels, let alone their grey stuff between their ears.
Chris agreed that these folks were responsible for the majority of the accidents, and it seems he has a VERY difficult job getting them to calm down. They just don't listen to him. Hmmmmmmmmmm. Last year at Cadwell, nobody crashed. However, a total prat in a brand new Compact span right on front of me before the Mountain and I nearly collected him. He was a novice who was too excited and who had decided to see what the result of turning off the traction control might be. Good one, fella. I reported him to the organisers.
So, the sticky tyres question. Chris agreed that higher cornering speeds hadn't necessarily caused any crashes at BMWCC track days as yet. The thinking is that something bad might happen as a result of increased cornering speeds. Banning sticky tyres would be seen as a pre-emptive strike to prevent a high speed accident. Chris thinks that everyone with sticky tyres should swap them for a set of worn out road tyres. Lancelot had an intersting point about this, as above.
It's a pitty I spent so much on Dunlop Formula-R's then. Oh well, I'll use them at other track days.
I reckon that the club will have a difficult time ahead of them in terms of keeping the track days going. Chris said that that club bigwigs wanted to stop them all together before a big accident happened. He argued strongly for the track days to continue, and he has been allowed to do more of them, but with a few promises to keep on his (i.e. the organisers') part. They will be even tougher on clowns who over-do it. The term "track day" will no longer be used. "Better driving day" will be used always. They will ban sticky tyres. However, slicks on race cars will be allowed, because their drivers, "don't want to crash their valuable cars". Well neither do I want to crash my valuable Sport Evo.
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want to be in his position. But it strikes me that the crashes happen to the beginners as a general rule. The experienced drivers look after themselves no matter what tyres they are using, and they don't often spin or crash.
Perhaps the club should let the experienced group use sticky tyres. That would exclude me, as I run in the novice group (near the front owing to my fast car). However, if they ban sticky tyres for good, then quite a few folks will stop going to BMWCC's track days. This is an important issue because of the poor attendences at some track days. Look at Croft the year before last, and Bedford too. Cancellations of the less popular days may be the result.
Again, I stress that Chris and his colleages in the club have a difficult job here, but we had no warning whatsoever about this. There was no consultation with the regular track day crowd, and I don't think the recent survey of track day drivers counts. They could have sent a letter to the regulars and asked them to write into the magazine for a special, extended letters page, or something. The club can see what I see, though, and that is the end of track day insurance on regular policies for individul cars, and the chance of seriously painful litigation if someone gets badly hurt.
Let me know what you think.
John W
>>> Edited by johnny senna on Saturday 22 February 19:33
This seems to be a ridiculous situation, first and foremost, there is surely a distintion between Race and Road legal tyres, I am using Yokohama A048R's,(according to Demon Tweeks, the closest thing you can get to slicks and still be road legal) and any vehicle sporting a road legal tyre should be allowed to participate in a track/better driving day. I would have thought the fact that these "sticky" tyres give improved grip would increase the safety of those taking part, although I do take the point that they increase cornering speeds which in turn can contribute to larger impact speeds should anything go wrong, but when you arrive at any race track, the first thing you see is a large disclaimer stating that "Motorsport is dangerous" end of story really.
I sympathise with the club to a certain extent. However, it's no good banning certain types of equipment. From the outset on any track day you need to lay down the law. If people aren't driving sensibly or within their limits then you either insist that they take an instructor out or you ban them from the track.
Setting the tone of what's acceptable on track is extremely important when running a track day.
Setting the tone of what's acceptable on track is extremely important when running a track day.
The whole situation at the club is developing now. I think that half the lads who normally drive in the "fast group" at BMWCC track days might go elsewhere. One member of the club who is an excellent driver said that he'd had enough, and that the he'll leave the soggy old farts to their "vicar's tea party" meets and pansy-ish track days. Plenty of other track day organisers after all.
Anything similar to this brewing with other clubs?
Anything similar to this brewing with other clubs?
I went on a BMWCC track day some years ago. One guy was hassling me to get out of the way. When I found a safe place to pull over he hooned past me and then lost it straight away and pirouetted off onto the grass. Another bloke stuffed his M3 convertible into the gravel trap.
On many track days, the organisers would then insist on those drivers going out with an instructor next time out.
As I say, it's down to the policing of the event, not the equipment. Particularly where novices are concerned. When I've run track days in the past we've had to warn people about their driving and in one case we stopped someone driving and in the other we were too late and he stuffed his Cerbera into the banking on his second session (I'd already told him to calm down).
It's not easy but you need to lay down the law.
On many track days, the organisers would then insist on those drivers going out with an instructor next time out.
As I say, it's down to the policing of the event, not the equipment. Particularly where novices are concerned. When I've run track days in the past we've had to warn people about their driving and in one case we stopped someone driving and in the other we were too late and he stuffed his Cerbera into the banking on his second session (I'd already told him to calm down).
It's not easy but you need to lay down the law.
The City region track days at Snetterton have a major accident every two years. There was a big one last year so hopefully this year will be trauma-free.
I can see the BMWCC point of view. Anything that increases grip levels and therefore cornering speed makes any accident that then happens more violent.
Lap times are irrelevant on track days so in theory running around on a set of Colway remoulds would be a laugh.
In practice that means having two sets of rims because you definitely wouldn't want those on the road - even for the drive home. And since a set of rims won't fit in most cars boots many people who've got sticky tyres just aren't going to bother.
Stricter policing is definitely the answer, with observers at marshall posts and 'no questions asked' elimination from the event written into the joining instructions.
I can see the BMWCC point of view. Anything that increases grip levels and therefore cornering speed makes any accident that then happens more violent.
Lap times are irrelevant on track days so in theory running around on a set of Colway remoulds would be a laugh.
In practice that means having two sets of rims because you definitely wouldn't want those on the road - even for the drive home. And since a set of rims won't fit in most cars boots many people who've got sticky tyres just aren't going to bother.
Stricter policing is definitely the answer, with observers at marshall posts and 'no questions asked' elimination from the event written into the joining instructions.
I probably do approx. 10 track days a year as do a number of guys I know. Road legal 'slick' tyres such as TypeR, Pilot Cups, Rossos', Yoko A32R etc are now the tyre of choice for most track day enthusiasts. The whole point of these tyres is that they have been designed for track use, therefore would it not make more sense for track day organisers to promote the use of such tyres. PCGB and RMA both use Silverline/Hutchinson Motorsport and actively promote drivers to try/use these kind of tyres.
To say these tyres increase cornering speeds is correct but to be concerned that this will lead to a bigger accident is just being silly IMO. What's next, the banning of more track orientated cars such as M3's Porsche RS's, 7's because they can corner too fast!
More strict marshalling of cars being driven beyond the cars/drivers ability is the only way to prevent accidents, however at the end of the day motorsport is dangerous, thats why you sign a disclaimer before going on any track.
To say these tyres increase cornering speeds is correct but to be concerned that this will lead to a bigger accident is just being silly IMO. What's next, the banning of more track orientated cars such as M3's Porsche RS's, 7's because they can corner too fast!
More strict marshalling of cars being driven beyond the cars/drivers ability is the only way to prevent accidents, however at the end of the day motorsport is dangerous, thats why you sign a disclaimer before going on any track.
Having instructed in a huge variety of cars on all kinds of circuits at lots of different track days i do feel that it is upto the instructors to help the guests/drivers have a fun,enjoyable and safe day whilst also helping them to learn more about their own driving and improve their ability.
The safety record of a track day is more to do with the quality of instructors and less to do with the type of car,tyre or experience of the guests/drivers.
I was at Donington with 2xBMW's last year when the M3 convertable rolled,i trust the occupants are well (?) and didn't know the level of experience of the driver, however you can tell a lot by watching the body language of the car and driver on the circuit and in the pits/paddock.
Nigel
The safety record of a track day is more to do with the quality of instructors and less to do with the type of car,tyre or experience of the guests/drivers.
I was at Donington with 2xBMW's last year when the M3 convertable rolled,i trust the occupants are well (?) and didn't know the level of experience of the driver, however you can tell a lot by watching the body language of the car and driver on the circuit and in the pits/paddock.
Nigel
But it strikes me that the crashes happen to the beginners as a general rule. The experienced drivers look after themselves no matter what tyres they are using, and they don't often spin or crash.
This isn't the case.. we've had more incidents, at circuits, involving experienced/race licence holding drivers than novices. Before anyone thinks that this is due to number of attendees, it's not - we attract around 30-40% novices at all our events, and typically less than 10% of drivers will have a race licence.
Andy
BookaTrack.com
shinyandy said:
But it strikes me that the crashes happen to the beginners as a general rule. The experienced drivers look after themselves no matter what tyres they are using, and they don't often spin or crash.
This isn't the case.. we've had more incidents, at circuits, involving experienced/race licence holding drivers than novices. Before anyone thinks that this is due to number of attendees, it's not - we attract around 30-40% novices at all our events, and typically less than 10% of drivers will have a race licence.
Andy
BookaTrack.com
That's interesting. At the BMWCC track days, it has been the beginners who've had the most accidents over 3 years.
spnracing said: The City region track days at Snetterton have a major accident every two years. There was a big one last year so hopefully this year will be trauma-free.
I can see the BMWCC point of view. Anything that increases grip levels and therefore cornering speed makes any accident that then happens more violent.
Lap times are irrelevant on track days so in theory running around on a set of Colway remoulds would be a laugh.
In practice that means having two sets of rims because you definitely wouldn't want those on the road - even for the drive home. And since a set of rims won't fit in most cars boots many people who've got sticky tyres just aren't going to bother.
Stricter policing is definitely the answer, with observers at marshall posts and 'no questions asked' elimination from the event written into the joining instructions.
Using a set of Colway remoulds might be a laugh, but it wouldn't be as safe as using R-compound tyres that were designed to put up with the demands that circuit driving puts on tyres.
johnny senna said:That's interesting. At the BMWCC track days, it has been the beginners who've had the most accidents over 3 years.
In our experience there is generally more "bravado" between the owners on a single make car club event, this can often lead to the more inexperienced drivers trying things they shouldn't !
Andy
BookaTrack.com
johnny senna said:
Using a set of Colway remoulds might be a laugh, but it wouldn't be as safe as using R-compound tyres that were designed to put up with the demands that circuit driving puts on tyres.
I've done hundreds of competitive miles through the Welsh forests on Colway remoulds, they are perfectly adequate for a track day. They just have no grip.
Dunlop Formula R's on the other hand get quite sticky and you can start putting some serious lap times in - which may not be appropriate on a track day.
spnracing said:
Dunlop Formula R's on the other hand get quite sticky and you can start putting some serious lap times in - which may not be appropriate on a track day.
Hang on! Prey tell me what would be appropriate at a track day? Me thinks we're back into the vicars tea party again!
Quick intro as this is my first post. I've been to many trackdays in the past couple of years in my E46 M3 Coupe and have been using Dunlop Formula-Rs for the last few.
I can't believe no-one has mentioned one of the most obvious reasons for using semi-slicks on a trackday ... they don't overheat, their tread doesn't distort beyond recognition after a single day and they basically last much longer than any conventional road tyre (even considering the fact that they start off with half the tread in the first place).
I tried the Dunlops out at Donington Park (my favourite UK track) for the first time a few weeks ago and even after 15 or so 1m30s'ish laps, the tyres were fine and had used hardly any tread all day.
I'd be interested to know how the BMWCC distinguishes between tyres that are allowed and tyres that are not allowed given that many semi-slicks are road legal (including the Dunlop D01Js).
Ian.
I can't believe no-one has mentioned one of the most obvious reasons for using semi-slicks on a trackday ... they don't overheat, their tread doesn't distort beyond recognition after a single day and they basically last much longer than any conventional road tyre (even considering the fact that they start off with half the tread in the first place).
I tried the Dunlops out at Donington Park (my favourite UK track) for the first time a few weeks ago and even after 15 or so 1m30s'ish laps, the tyres were fine and had used hardly any tread all day.
I'd be interested to know how the BMWCC distinguishes between tyres that are allowed and tyres that are not allowed given that many semi-slicks are road legal (including the Dunlop D01Js).
Ian.
BMWCC have different organisers for each track day. The chaps who organise the Croft and Cadwell days have decided that they are going to allow R-compound tyres, despite what the other track day organisers in the club have said. I will be attending the Cadwell and Croft days with my Dunlop Formula-Rs as a result.
The BMWCC banned these tyres as a few individuals were identified with particularly bad track etiquette, who all had stickies, and were not driving particularly well somewhere in the middle of the pack. I understand on the next track day they turned up with road tyres and where still in the middle of the pack, but much better behaved
Cheers
Konst
Cheers
Konst
I find that comment amazing. Were these drivers ever cautioned about their driving. If that is really true then the club have destroyed their own misguided actions. Surely, if they still drove poorly with "road" tyres then one has to ask how the hell did they make the decision to ban R compounds.
I agree with many of the posts here that banning equipment is simply not the answer. Where will they draw the line of specifying that any modified cars in any way cannot attend, so if you've uprated the dampers or springs etc, then you can't go?
No, as many of the posts point out - etiquette is the answer. I've reported a couple of drivers on track days for overtaking in corners or under braking or just plain over aggressive driving. It's not a race.
John, I don't know the exact circumstances obviously but I would have thought that a track day *is* when you turn off the traction control and try to learn about the limits of your car and yourself? And I definitely get excited when I go to track days - what's the point otherwise?
Not intended as a flame, as I said I don't know how the chap in question was driving.
No, as many of the posts point out - etiquette is the answer. I've reported a couple of drivers on track days for overtaking in corners or under braking or just plain over aggressive driving. It's not a race.
John, I don't know the exact circumstances obviously but I would have thought that a track day *is* when you turn off the traction control and try to learn about the limits of your car and yourself? And I definitely get excited when I go to track days - what's the point otherwise?
Not intended as a flame, as I said I don't know how the chap in question was driving.
konst said: The BMWCC banned these tyres as a few individuals were identified with particularly bad track etiquette, who all had stickies, and were not driving particularly well somewhere in the middle of the pack. I understand on the next track day they turned up with road tyres and where still in the middle of the pack, but much better behaved
Cheers
Konst
Hi Konst,
Well.....myself and 9 other miffed E30 M3 drivers did not go to that first track day where "sticky tyres" were banned (it was at Hethel last month). We had a terrific day instead at Oulton Park with Easytrack. Sticky tyres were in abundance.
So, the trouble makers who had previously used stickies turned up to the BMWCC Hethel track day, did they? I am pleased because, from that, it sounds as if none of my mates who I went to Oulton Park with instead were part of the original problem that the organisers identified.
What makes this all so farcical is that the BMWCC track days at Croft and Cadwell later in the year will both be allowing stickies. The rules are different for the different events!! Ridiculous.
>> Edited by johnny senna on Sunday 13th April 23:32
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