Track day cars.....with a twist
Discussion
Having spent last weekend lapping the nurburgring, thinking about getting a track day car. Being an absolute tight fist and due to the nature of track day insurance I am looking at the cheaper end of the market. Cue “Get a BMW 325/Pug GTI/ Mk2 golf”. However pretty much every hot hatch (or similar) in this price range has been completely rinsed by all 28 of it’s previous owners and yet you still need to handover well over a grand for something which is on it’s last legs
Are there any cars which would make alright track cars but have no imagine to speak of and therefore haven’t been driven to within a inch of their life and aren’t comically priced. (Yes it probably won’t be as fast but track days appear to more about driver skill than how big your engine is)
Questions in no particular order:
1. Ford Serria? Almost free these days, RWD, 2.0 litre engine gives it reasonable poke. 4x4 v6 version almost as cheap, although my housemate believes the 4x4 will cause these to under steer like crazy.
2. Roll cage? Yes or no. People were crashing out at the ‘ring left, right and centre. (Thinking 6 point bolt in effort)
3. Ripping out the interior to save weight. Apart from making the car completely worthless if you try and sell it, is it the magic cure some people will lead you to believe that will turn a complete dog into a road going go-cart?
4. Due to my parking situation the car will probably have to be road legal; Anybody got any good insurance recommendations for a company who isn’t going to laugh their head off when I tell them my car has non-standard brakes, suspension and a roll-cage? (Or assume I some pimp my ride wanna be and charge me appropriately).
Are there any cars which would make alright track cars but have no imagine to speak of and therefore haven’t been driven to within a inch of their life and aren’t comically priced. (Yes it probably won’t be as fast but track days appear to more about driver skill than how big your engine is)
Questions in no particular order:
1. Ford Serria? Almost free these days, RWD, 2.0 litre engine gives it reasonable poke. 4x4 v6 version almost as cheap, although my housemate believes the 4x4 will cause these to under steer like crazy.
2. Roll cage? Yes or no. People were crashing out at the ‘ring left, right and centre. (Thinking 6 point bolt in effort)
3. Ripping out the interior to save weight. Apart from making the car completely worthless if you try and sell it, is it the magic cure some people will lead you to believe that will turn a complete dog into a road going go-cart?
4. Due to my parking situation the car will probably have to be road legal; Anybody got any good insurance recommendations for a company who isn’t going to laugh their head off when I tell them my car has non-standard brakes, suspension and a roll-cage? (Or assume I some pimp my ride wanna be and charge me appropriately).
steven said:
Having spent last weekend lapping the nurburgring, thinking about getting a track day car. Being an absolute tight fist and due to the nature of track day insurance I am looking at the cheaper end of the market. Cue “Get a BMW 325/Pug GTI/ Mk2 golf”. However pretty much every hot hatch (or similar) in this price range has been completely rinsed by all 28 of it’s previous owners and yet you still need to handover well over a grand for something which is on it’s last legs
Are there any cars which would make alright track cars but have no imagine to speak of and therefore haven’t been driven to within a inch of their life and aren’t comically priced. (Yes it probably won’t be as fast but track days appear to more about driver skill than how big your engine is)
Questions in no particular order:
1. Ford Serria? Almost free these days, RWD, 2.0 litre engine gives it reasonable poke. 4x4 v6 version almost as cheap, although my housemate believes the 4x4 will cause these to under steer like crazy.
2. Roll cage? Yes or no. People were crashing out at the ‘ring left, right and centre. (Thinking 6 point bolt in effort)
3. Ripping out the interior to save weight. Apart from making the car completely worthless if you try and sell it, is it the magic cure some people will lead you to believe that will turn a complete dog into a road going go-cart?
4. Due to my parking situation the car will probably have to be road legal; Anybody got any good insurance recommendations for a company who isn’t going to laugh their head off when I tell them my car has non-standard brakes, suspension and a roll-cage? (Or assume I some pimp my ride wanna be and charge me appropriately).
Are there any cars which would make alright track cars but have no imagine to speak of and therefore haven’t been driven to within a inch of their life and aren’t comically priced. (Yes it probably won’t be as fast but track days appear to more about driver skill than how big your engine is)
Questions in no particular order:
1. Ford Serria? Almost free these days, RWD, 2.0 litre engine gives it reasonable poke. 4x4 v6 version almost as cheap, although my housemate believes the 4x4 will cause these to under steer like crazy.
2. Roll cage? Yes or no. People were crashing out at the ‘ring left, right and centre. (Thinking 6 point bolt in effort)
3. Ripping out the interior to save weight. Apart from making the car completely worthless if you try and sell it, is it the magic cure some people will lead you to believe that will turn a complete dog into a road going go-cart?
4. Due to my parking situation the car will probably have to be road legal; Anybody got any good insurance recommendations for a company who isn’t going to laugh their head off when I tell them my car has non-standard brakes, suspension and a roll-cage? (Or assume I some pimp my ride wanna be and charge me appropriately).
I've seen all sorts on track, in the few hunded quid to a grand area, all depends on what you are after.
Dont really advise tracking a bog standard older car tho, tracking is v hard on the car- which sees much much more track time than 99% of racing cars do in a day (normal Uk race series= 20 mins qual, 15-20 mins race, typical uk track day 2& half hrs of track time- more if open pit) & a bog standard old hatch etc will struggle to last a few sesions without dieing- let alone a full trackday seasion.
For a well prepped old track car youve got to expect to spend a grand or so on top of purchance price sorting the fundamentals & the niggles & breakages that will occur over a season.
If you want fwd I had a good chin wag to a fella with a Civic a few wks back, was the older one- up right hachback model that looks a bit like a breadvan, but this particular car came with the same VTEC engine as the CRX so 160 bhp, & all he'd done was a general service & he was absolutley flying round, only cost a few hundred at auction & was more than a match for my well prepped track Golf.
For rwd also chinwagged to a fella who'd done the same with am MX5, so well was he going & I didnt pass him easily so I assumed it was a supercharged one as they really do fly, but no it was a boggo 1.6, ok he knew the circuit v well & could certainly drive. It was an import & cost not much over a grand at auction, good intro to rwd & cheap to track I thought, with the option of a huge range of go faster bits when you decide to upgrade I think its a good choice- not great if you are tall tho.
To answer yr other questions-
1- dunno
2- Yes + harnesses & harness bar, many folks don't & I diddnt used to, but a couple of scares 'ring & Uk tracks at speed & I got one- lots available on ebay & 2nd hand on zillions of websites which can save you cash.
3- Put it this way- you can loose an easy 100kg from stripping out- makes a big change to power to weight ratio & if you dont cut out sunroofs & the dash etc out & mainly just rempve trim/ carpets etc you can still re-install it all come resale time.
4- Insurers generally hate modded cars & particually roll cages, much easier if you can get a classic policy for a 2nd car.
Edited by iguana on Sunday 18th June 12:13
1) Why not. But I'd be tempted to replace the engine if possible...the Scorpio V6 has a fair bit of poke to it, and I think has the same mounting points.
2) Absolutely.
3) Absolutely. Angle grinder perhaps as well!!!
4) Specialists, definitely specialists. And as Sierra's are >15y.o, it's a classic, so a classic policy can be obtained.
Oh...get this months (last months?) PPC magazine - got a Sierra article in it which could help a fair bit.
2) Absolutely.
3) Absolutely. Angle grinder perhaps as well!!!
4) Specialists, definitely specialists. And as Sierra's are >15y.o, it's a classic, so a classic policy can be obtained.
Oh...get this months (last months?) PPC magazine - got a Sierra article in it which could help a fair bit.
choose a car that has a good power to weight ratio in the first place, good road cars are generally shit track cars...cue the Ford Sierra. Also the benefit of going for the usual suspects is that generally means you can get uprated parts for them, and even 2nd hand uprated parts.
My first thought was of something like an Alfa Romeo 33 or what ever they are. Remember seeing a string of prepped alfas going well round the ring.
By far the best value for money is buying a 2nd hand rally/race car already fitted with suitable seats, care and harness etc. You can pick something that will absolutely fly round a track and be very safe for £1,500 or so with nothing to be spent. Have a look in the motorsport section of pistonheads
for 205 inspiration look here www.track-monkey.co.uk
Sean
My first thought was of something like an Alfa Romeo 33 or what ever they are. Remember seeing a string of prepped alfas going well round the ring.
By far the best value for money is buying a 2nd hand rally/race car already fitted with suitable seats, care and harness etc. You can pick something that will absolutely fly round a track and be very safe for £1,500 or so with nothing to be spent. Have a look in the motorsport section of pistonheads
for 205 inspiration look here www.track-monkey.co.uk
Sean
These people have a good idea:
www.talonsportscars.com/
They take a Metro, cut out the rot, lower and fix the suspension, fit bigger brakes, and a low mileage VVC engine and....whoosh a real sleeper that performs well on the track, is road legal, and cheap to run 'cause it's light.
I think they've done a stripped out version and it weighed 650Kg.
Total kit Car article here:
www.totalkitcar.com/tkc_article_1153.php
www.talonsportscars.com/
They take a Metro, cut out the rot, lower and fix the suspension, fit bigger brakes, and a low mileage VVC engine and....whoosh a real sleeper that performs well on the track, is road legal, and cheap to run 'cause it's light.
I think they've done a stripped out version and it weighed 650Kg.
Total kit Car article here:
www.totalkitcar.com/tkc_article_1153.php
I'd definitely look at a kit of some sort, you'll probably be able to find one very easily with virtually no interior to speak of, ready for full rebuild to your spec (read: requiring a full rebuild) with an easy to adapt chassis for roll caging and pi55 cheap insurance - there are so many light-with-potential kits out there that are sitting unfinished waiting for a few quid to change hands.
I met one guy at a track day running a stipped out pug 405 estate - he seemed to be enjoying himself so I guess you can use just about anything. Assuming you do not crash or have a mechanical failuire then overheating the engine and brakes seem to be the issues which lose you track time so you may end up spending on a recored rad and uprated brakes.
What about finding a like minded mate and buying a car between you? This halves the cost and gives you an extra pair of hands for maintenance. If you both go to a track day and share the sessions you also get the option of a support vehicle, handy for tools, parts, jerry cans, tent, food, towing, etc.
If you assume any money spent on the car is gone and unrecoverable then getting anything back if you sell or break it will be a nice bonus.
What about finding a like minded mate and buying a car between you? This halves the cost and gives you an extra pair of hands for maintenance. If you both go to a track day and share the sessions you also get the option of a support vehicle, handy for tools, parts, jerry cans, tent, food, towing, etc.
If you assume any money spent on the car is gone and unrecoverable then getting anything back if you sell or break it will be a nice bonus.
smckeown said:
a rover with custom bits to make it handle..erm no thanks 
For 160 BHP 1.8 VVC ... £4,395 you could put together a Peugeot 205 mi16 (with needed rebuilt engine) that would wipe the floor with it. No custom made parts needed either
For 160 BHP 1.8 VVC ... £4,395 you could put together a Peugeot 205 mi16 (with needed rebuilt engine) that would wipe the floor with it. No custom made parts needed either£4.4k wouldn't make you a particularly spectacular Mi16, not even if you did most of it yourself. However you could buy a pre-prepped one for that sort of money. Although it would weigh substantially more, and I'm not convinced it would wipe the floor with the Metro.
A friend (good mechanic) managed to spend over £7k making his Mi16 conversion - cage, suspension, engine, head porting, strip-and-rebuild, dry sump, spares, tyres etc...plus hundreds of hours labour.
About the Sierra 4x4 understeer. At easter at the ring, the funniest thing I saw was a white Sierra 4x4 going sideways around EVERY corner. Wasn't quick but looked like so much fun. Cheap motoring, but not necessarily reliable. But older cars are easier to work on, so it'd be worth a shot.
Depends on the budget and is it preferable to be road legal or a must. Rover Gti Cup cars are great for trackdays and seem to be about 2.5 to 3k at present, bombproof engine, amazing handling and you won't find much that'll lap quicker on an average trackday. Proper seat, harness, extinguisher etc. so go and race it when you are ready, but you will need a trailer. On the other hand the Sierra is now £157.00! 
Just bought this as a road legal trackday car, for the very reasons listed above, it was advertised on here by a very nice chap
www.trackaction-online.co.uk/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=44&limit=recent
www.trackaction-online.co.uk/photopost/showphoto.php?photo=44&limit=recent
Edited by lowpro on Tuesday 20th June 18:48
havoc said:
[quote=smckeown]
A friend (good mechanic) managed to spend over £7k making his Mi16 conversion - cage, suspension, engine, head porting, strip-and-rebuild, dry sump, spares, tyres etc...plus hundreds of hours labour.
A friend (good mechanic) managed to spend over £7k making his Mi16 conversion - cage, suspension, engine, head porting, strip-and-rebuild, dry sump, spares, tyres etc...plus hundreds of hours labour.
I've been developing dedicated track 205s for a few years now. I'm not going to enter a pissing contest just to say you can build an absolute beats of a 205 mi16 (160bhp) for well under £4k and weighing about 800kgs. Not only that it will handle great. It's becuase your taking a great car and making it better. Rather than starting with a rover metro shit heap and making it slightly better for the track. The only problem with the mi16 engine is the fact it suffers from oil surge issues. That's why this time i've gone for the 8v.
Anyway, my point being there are much better platforms for building a track other than a rover metro.
Oh there are. But the metro is very light. With a full cage it's rigidity will improve no end. With replacement springs/dampers, the suspension is no longer such a liability, and with a new engine it's probably very capable. So a track-Metro is no longer the dog you make it out to be...and £100 for one of them is better than £1,000 for a decent GTi.
205 - a target of 800kg is a lot of weight to strip out when you're adding in a roll-cage and 16v head...my view is that much shy of 900kg, wet weight, is a good result. As for the money...if the donor car costs £1k-ish, a good Mi16 about the same, a decent suspension kit over £500, a roll cage and painting more than that, and then you need to solve oil-surge (which is a dry sump, quite honestly), you're already at OVER £4k parts before any of the following:-
- engine work (you're buying a used engine which is an oil surge risk!)
- brakes
- wheels/tyres
- extinguisher & bracket
- racing buckets
- spares
- consumables / things breaking first-time around
Anyone budgeting less than £6k on a DIY project is cutting corners, quite honestly.
205 - a target of 800kg is a lot of weight to strip out when you're adding in a roll-cage and 16v head...my view is that much shy of 900kg, wet weight, is a good result. As for the money...if the donor car costs £1k-ish, a good Mi16 about the same, a decent suspension kit over £500, a roll cage and painting more than that, and then you need to solve oil-surge (which is a dry sump, quite honestly), you're already at OVER £4k parts before any of the following:-
- engine work (you're buying a used engine which is an oil surge risk!)
- brakes
- wheels/tyres
- extinguisher & bracket
- racing buckets
- spares
- consumables / things breaking first-time around
Anyone budgeting less than £6k on a DIY project is cutting corners, quite honestly.
it's totally down to budget.
£500 - probably a 318i fully stripped - I believe the best part of 200kg's can be ripped out.
£1000 - pug 205 / 309 - should geta nice one, remove a bit of interior & should do the job
£2000 - pug 306 gti - remove approx 100kg's from the inside.
I wouldn;t bother with a sierra unless you are seriously handy with a spanner.
Also, bear in mind that if you are looking at many track days, a proerp track car will be much cheaper to run than any road car.
Weight is the enemy on a track - a light car needs less brakes, tyres, suspension mods.
£500 - probably a 318i fully stripped - I believe the best part of 200kg's can be ripped out.
£1000 - pug 205 / 309 - should geta nice one, remove a bit of interior & should do the job
£2000 - pug 306 gti - remove approx 100kg's from the inside.
I wouldn;t bother with a sierra unless you are seriously handy with a spanner.
Also, bear in mind that if you are looking at many track days, a proerp track car will be much cheaper to run than any road car.
Weight is the enemy on a track - a light car needs less brakes, tyres, suspension mods.
adrian flux cover one of my cars with full cage, harnesses, stripped etc. on a limited mileage policy for £250. The engine & drivetrain are not tinkered with tho. They know it is to be used on track but the cover is only for road. Individual track policies can be taken out but they are obviously expensive.
Try competition car insurance for track policies.
Try competition car insurance for track policies.
havoc said:
Oh there are. But the metro is very light. With a full cage it's rigidity will improve no end. With replacement springs/dampers, the suspension is no longer such a liability, and with a new engine it's probably very capable. So a track-Metro is no longer the dog you make it out to be...and £100 for one of them is better than £1,000 for a decent GTi.
205 - a target of 800kg is a lot of weight to strip out when you're adding in a roll-cage and 16v head...my view is that much shy of 900kg, wet weight, is a good result. As for the money...if the donor car costs £1k-ish, a good Mi16 about the same, a decent suspension kit over £500, a roll cage and painting more than that, and then you need to solve oil-surge (which is a dry sump, quite honestly), you're already at OVER £4k parts before any of the following:-
- engine work (you're buying a used engine which is an oil surge risk!)
- brakes
- wheels/tyres
- extinguisher & bracket
- racing buckets
- spares
- consumables / things breaking first-time around
Anyone budgeting less than £6k on a DIY project is cutting corners, quite honestly.
205 - a target of 800kg is a lot of weight to strip out when you're adding in a roll-cage and 16v head...my view is that much shy of 900kg, wet weight, is a good result. As for the money...if the donor car costs £1k-ish, a good Mi16 about the same, a decent suspension kit over £500, a roll cage and painting more than that, and then you need to solve oil-surge (which is a dry sump, quite honestly), you're already at OVER £4k parts before any of the following:-
- engine work (you're buying a used engine which is an oil surge risk!)
- brakes
- wheels/tyres
- extinguisher & bracket
- racing buckets
- spares
- consumables / things breaking first-time around
Anyone budgeting less than £6k on a DIY project is cutting corners, quite honestly.
Well you obviously know a little about 205s but thats not the best picture. Here's reality.
I got my mi16 engined 205 down to 779 kgs. Thats with:
fibreglass hatch (£70)
FG bonnet (150)
stripped interior (seriously stripped)
Heated front screen (£150) as there's no heater anymore
OZ superleggera wheels (£200)
If your rebuilding the engine then you can but a 205 with a nackered one like I did for £250 easily. A good mi16 rebuild can be done for £1k. Can be done for a lot less but I meant a good build. You don't need a dry sump to solve the oil surge issues. Those of us in the know over at 205gtidrivers.com know the proven solution of extending the oil pickup and running more oil to counteract the mi16 head oil drainage issues. that's been proven time and time again, so no nasty £1500 expense on a pace dry sump system.
You can buy an mi16 engine with al ancilaries for £300, not the £1k you quoted, it's up to you if you rebuild it, the bearings do wear significantly after 80k.
Cage and painting will be like for like 205 to rover so no point listing that, same with all thhe consulables you list
So you can get a sorted 160 bhp 205 mi16 for well less than £4k you list and it wil lweigh close of 800kgs not 900. So thats 200 bhp per ton; that's very rapid round a track, been there got the t-shirts.
check my website for the 2 x 205s I have had prepared
www.track-monkey.co.uk
So i'll make my point again, i'd rather improve a well handling car to begin with, than starting with a shit heap and trying to improve that
Sean
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