Track day car advice needed
Discussion
Me and my brother in law have been toying with the idea of chipping in some money and buying a dedicated track day car for us to share and use on track days. We both have experience of track days, me in my S2000, and him in his Impreza.
We have budgeted up to £15,000 but if we can get something just as fun, for less $$$ then thats fine too, no point in spending more than you must! Also we are thinking along the lines of something road legal as trailer and car to tow with adds too much extra cost.
We were originally considering an Ariel Atom (have seen a couple about in the last 6 months within budget) but I don't think we'd be getting best value for money down that route. Also the rareity makes them hard to find and sell on I would assume.
Obviously we could consider something like a Caterham or Westie but I have limited knowledge of these so don't know what would be the best option.
So at this point I wondered if anyone had any suggestions or advice as to what would be a good choice?
Thanks in advance,
Karl
We have budgeted up to £15,000 but if we can get something just as fun, for less $$$ then thats fine too, no point in spending more than you must! Also we are thinking along the lines of something road legal as trailer and car to tow with adds too much extra cost.
We were originally considering an Ariel Atom (have seen a couple about in the last 6 months within budget) but I don't think we'd be getting best value for money down that route. Also the rareity makes them hard to find and sell on I would assume.
Obviously we could consider something like a Caterham or Westie but I have limited knowledge of these so don't know what would be the best option.
So at this point I wondered if anyone had any suggestions or advice as to what would be a good choice?
Thanks in advance,
Karl
We did buy a VW Golf MkII 1.8 that we were going to track, but we were going to go down the non road legal route, things didn't work out and we had nowhere to keep it in the end, we now have access to a garage again, so are rethinking it.
I would prefer something more dedicated to the track than just a 205 GTi thats been stripped. I know they can be a lot of fun but we don't mind spending a bit more for something lower/faster/ with better handling etc.
I would prefer something more dedicated to the track than just a 205 GTi thats been stripped. I know they can be a lot of fun but we don't mind spending a bit more for something lower/faster/ with better handling etc.
For that kind of money you could get a s/h Caterham Superlight. Comes with 1.6 SS K-series engine (about 135bhp) 6 speed gearbox, AP 4 pot brakes with vented disks, adjustable ride height suspension, wide track front suspension, LSD and a few carbon bits.
For a dedicated track car, you need to be able to set it up to handle how you want it to, so adjustable suspension (ride height) is a must. A choice of anti-roll bars might be good as well (or an adjustable one).
There are plenty of Seven clones out there that can be made to handle well and for half your budget you could have a Sylva Striker or similar.
That Westfield looks like good value if you fancy a bike engined car.
I had the same plans as you and went down the Caterham route after looking at all the options as it just seemed to deliver the overall best package. Owners of other Seven style cars will be along quickly to talk up their marque and I certainly have a respect for many of them. There are plenty of quick Westys and Sylvas about. If you don't like the Seven style then there are plenty of track cars with enclosed bodywork - Sylva Phoenix, SSC Stylus, Fisher Fury.
For a dedicated track car, you need to be able to set it up to handle how you want it to, so adjustable suspension (ride height) is a must. A choice of anti-roll bars might be good as well (or an adjustable one).
There are plenty of Seven clones out there that can be made to handle well and for half your budget you could have a Sylva Striker or similar.
That Westfield looks like good value if you fancy a bike engined car.
I had the same plans as you and went down the Caterham route after looking at all the options as it just seemed to deliver the overall best package. Owners of other Seven style cars will be along quickly to talk up their marque and I certainly have a respect for many of them. There are plenty of quick Westys and Sylvas about. If you don't like the Seven style then there are plenty of track cars with enclosed bodywork - Sylva Phoenix, SSC Stylus, Fisher Fury.
I was at Brands on Tuesday and a guy there had an Atom, and was tracking it for the first time. He was impressed with it, although did have a couple of spins. One thing I would say though is that if you're going to drive it home afterwards you may want something a little less extreme. After about 100 miles of hard track work I was knackered and being able to drive back in some kind of comfort was a bonus. Some of the tweaked elises can be fun, and probably more bearble on the drive home. Similarly I can really see you parking an Atom on the street?!?!
Doug - I do like the look of that Westfield - seems to be good value for money. I'm looking into that further.
Shaun - Thanks for the advice, some good points there, I will keep in mind. Whats the bhp/tonne for Superlight? Also whats the advantages/disadvantages of a bike engined car??
Stephen - emailed back
Phil - As I have mentioned I don't know much about the Westfields, the one listed above - how does that rate? What Westfield do you have?
I also met a guy at Brands (from the board) who had an Atom but he had to many other people there to be able to take me out in it. Looked awesome on the track though. The thing thats holding me back though is that for the money I've got I'd be looking at a 170, when you really want the 2.0l Supercharged...lol. I'm not too worried about it being too extreme, if theres 2 of us insured on it we can take it in stints, I just want to maximise the fun I can get out of a track car for the money available.
Exboxer - the car will be garaged!
Thanks for the advice so far, I'm starting to build a picture of what we *COULD* get.
Shaun - Thanks for the advice, some good points there, I will keep in mind. Whats the bhp/tonne for Superlight? Also whats the advantages/disadvantages of a bike engined car??
Stephen - emailed back
Phil - As I have mentioned I don't know much about the Westfields, the one listed above - how does that rate? What Westfield do you have?
I also met a guy at Brands (from the board) who had an Atom but he had to many other people there to be able to take me out in it. Looked awesome on the track though. The thing thats holding me back though is that for the money I've got I'd be looking at a 170, when you really want the 2.0l Supercharged...lol. I'm not too worried about it being too extreme, if theres 2 of us insured on it we can take it in stints, I just want to maximise the fun I can get out of a track car for the money available.
Exboxer - the car will be garaged!
Thanks for the advice so far, I'm starting to build a picture of what we *COULD* get.
re bike engined, I believe they are more peaky and more bother round town etc. If you use it on track only then its not an issue I guess. You may want to look into the reliability and lastability of a bike engine too, IIRC they are not up there with car blocks (ever seen a high mileage bike?)
regarding your choices, you may be *just* into westfield xtr2 teritory there, and you wont find much quicker round a track than one of those. Depends what you want I suppose but I think the choice to go for a sevenesque caterfield type is a no brainer seeing as you only need to drive it to track, and not daily to work or anything.
Atoms are great, but agree with your comments regarding being retricted to the 170 for that money, and I have always thought they would be hard to shift on and repair etc and I personally decided to go for something more mainstream in the end (I bought a westy). Lotus 340r is the other option along those lines but again, I know for a fact they are *very* expensive to repair bodywork etc (many thousands). I don't know enough about the atom though, dont let me put you off, it was just my personal thoughts at the time when I was trying to make a decision similar to yours.
let us know what you go for!
Martin
regarding your choices, you may be *just* into westfield xtr2 teritory there, and you wont find much quicker round a track than one of those. Depends what you want I suppose but I think the choice to go for a sevenesque caterfield type is a no brainer seeing as you only need to drive it to track, and not daily to work or anything.
Atoms are great, but agree with your comments regarding being retricted to the 170 for that money, and I have always thought they would be hard to shift on and repair etc and I personally decided to go for something more mainstream in the end (I bought a westy). Lotus 340r is the other option along those lines but again, I know for a fact they are *very* expensive to repair bodywork etc (many thousands). I don't know enough about the atom though, dont let me put you off, it was just my personal thoughts at the time when I was trying to make a decision similar to yours.
let us know what you go for!
Martin
Having driven a few evo's on a variety of circuits I'd suggest an RS evo.
You are in the right price range to get a brilliant track biased evo like this one:
www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=105377
Fairly bullet proof mechanics, power oversteer, good fun wet or dry, will comfortably get you to and from the track on the road, 300 bhp will induce big smiles.
Having driven elise/vx's on track I found them quite boring after driving an EVO, nice thing about these is having lots of power = ample opportunity for big controlable slides.
You are in the right price range to get a brilliant track biased evo like this one:
www.lancerregister.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=105377
Fairly bullet proof mechanics, power oversteer, good fun wet or dry, will comfortably get you to and from the track on the road, 300 bhp will induce big smiles.
Having driven elise/vx's on track I found them quite boring after driving an EVO, nice thing about these is having lots of power = ample opportunity for big controlable slides.
phase_k said:
Phil - As I have mentioned I don't know much about the Westfields, the one listed above - how does that rate? What Westfield do you have?
The one mentioned earlier looks good. It has the standard roll bar though, which is not safe. If you manage to roll it, that won't help you. They're not high enough, and are not strong enough. You'll need an RAC roll bar. I didn't put mine on track till I had fitted one. Also I've heard that those aeroscreens aren't very effective at high speed (over 100), so you'll need a strong neck. Get one with an aero though. The windscreen is just a big air brake and weighs a lot more than an aero. I've just bought a Plays Kool carbon fibre aero for mine which is supposed to be much better, and in my opinion looks better. Just to whet your appetite for a busa listen (and watch) this.
If you are serious about a Westfield go to the discussion board at the Westfield owners club (http://boardroom.wscc.co.uk/cgi-bin/i You can ask for further advice there, and if there is something you are considering, post a link and ask them what they think.
I don't have a bike engined car as I use mine off track as well as on, so I wanted a more versatile car engined car. Mine has 180bhp Vauxhall red top, which in my opinion is the best car engine to go in a Westfield. If you wanted a car engine I'd recommend a tuned one of these with throttle bodies. You can easily get 220-250 bhp from these. Here's a 220bhp one. (20mb vid). Also this is fun. (40mb vid)
Hope that helps
>> Edited by Phil. S. on Friday 17th March 09:38
Superlight weighs about 525-550kg depending on specification giving somewhere around 250bhp/tonne - not too shabby. 0-60 around 5 secs but will run out of steam as you near 100mph. On track though you will out brake most cars and be able to carry more speed through corners.
Any big saloon is going to cost a fair bit in brakes and tyres if tracked regularly and probably suspension/wheel bearings too. In 3 years I have done 14k miles and a dozen or so track days in my SL and still on the original pads. I have been through 3 sets of tyres in that time - sticky race ones - and haven't had to replace or fix any suspension parts.
I've never driven a bike engined car but from discussions with owners it seems that there are a lot of myths about them being difficult to drive in town, etc. but most owners will refute that. Also people will say they have no torque but that is rubbish as gearing and rpm even that out. The thing to bear in mind I guess is the rpm that bike engines reach - it "could" be wearing on a long journey but then so will any light weight kit car. My SL has no carpets and is pretty noisy and is doing 5000rpm at motorway speeds - I just wear ear plugs or use an intercom system. Advantage of a BEC is the sequential box, low weight, good turn in (little weight over front wheels) and I guess the noise (if you like that sort of thing
)
One final thing worth thinking about is roll over protection. You ideally want an FIA specification roll over bar - maybe even a cage although they can be impractical for a road car.
Any big saloon is going to cost a fair bit in brakes and tyres if tracked regularly and probably suspension/wheel bearings too. In 3 years I have done 14k miles and a dozen or so track days in my SL and still on the original pads. I have been through 3 sets of tyres in that time - sticky race ones - and haven't had to replace or fix any suspension parts.
I've never driven a bike engined car but from discussions with owners it seems that there are a lot of myths about them being difficult to drive in town, etc. but most owners will refute that. Also people will say they have no torque but that is rubbish as gearing and rpm even that out. The thing to bear in mind I guess is the rpm that bike engines reach - it "could" be wearing on a long journey but then so will any light weight kit car. My SL has no carpets and is pretty noisy and is doing 5000rpm at motorway speeds - I just wear ear plugs or use an intercom system. Advantage of a BEC is the sequential box, low weight, good turn in (little weight over front wheels) and I guess the noise (if you like that sort of thing
) One final thing worth thinking about is roll over protection. You ideally want an FIA specification roll over bar - maybe even a cage although they can be impractical for a road car.
My recommendations are::
- a stripped out hot hatch, like a Pug 205 or Mk1/2 golf
- Bike engined caterham or westfield
- Exige
I wouldn't recommend a road oriented saloon.
I've tracked caterhams, a modified subaru and 2 stripped out hardcore peugeot 205s. By miles i have more fun in the 205 and it's the cheapest to own
there are plenty of vids of my old 205 mi16 on my website www.mckeown-enterprises.co.uk/mi16_videos.htm
Sean
- a stripped out hot hatch, like a Pug 205 or Mk1/2 golf
- Bike engined caterham or westfield
- Exige
I wouldn't recommend a road oriented saloon.
I've tracked caterhams, a modified subaru and 2 stripped out hardcore peugeot 205s. By miles i have more fun in the 205
and it's the cheapest to own there are plenty of vids of my old 205 mi16 on my website www.mckeown-enterprises.co.uk/mi16_videos.htm
Sean
Martin - good points about the bike engines, I''m not too worried about issues off track so it means my options are open, which is good. Theres an XTR2 in the classifieds for £16k, but I think it may be a bit more than we need.
I was also worried as to how easy it would be to shift an atom if you want to move on, in my experience its easier / cheaper to maintain & sell a more mainstream car, and atoms are few and far between. I think if I had more money than sense, it would be my choice, but maybe not in this circumstance.
Rallycross - I know you can have a lot of fun in an Evo, but its just, kinda too "sensible" for what I want at the moment. The appeal lies in a car that has no roof, and isn't at all sensible, cramped and rattly, but FAST!
Phil - thanks for the advice. What about the zetec engined ones? In my experience these can be very reliable, pokey engines. Thanks for the links.
Shaun - thats why I am looking more to a kit type car than a saloon or stripped Gti. You mention roll bar protection - do you know anyone that has had accidents involving rolls? I would have thought you would have to get it really wrong to roll one of these, the track days I've been to I'm sure you'd get black flagged before you had a chance to drive that badly?
Sean - I'm just really liking the idea of a superlight. I know how much fun the Gti's can be, my brother has owned a few.
I'd have to say a Westfield is sounding like the best bet at the moment. Bike or car engined, still not sure!
One thing I want to consider also is the width of whatever I go for. At the moment I have access to my dad's garage, but that may not be forever. I have my own garage but it is behind my house and you have to use the shared accessway between my house and next door. I measured it last night and it is 1.545m (I could potentially widen this by maybe 5cm). All I could find on the net is that a Westfield seight is 1.56m, but can't find details of any other Westfields. Can anyone tell me the width measurments?
Thanks everyone,
Karl
I was also worried as to how easy it would be to shift an atom if you want to move on, in my experience its easier / cheaper to maintain & sell a more mainstream car, and atoms are few and far between. I think if I had more money than sense, it would be my choice, but maybe not in this circumstance.
Rallycross - I know you can have a lot of fun in an Evo, but its just, kinda too "sensible" for what I want at the moment. The appeal lies in a car that has no roof, and isn't at all sensible, cramped and rattly, but FAST!
Phil - thanks for the advice. What about the zetec engined ones? In my experience these can be very reliable, pokey engines. Thanks for the links.
Shaun - thats why I am looking more to a kit type car than a saloon or stripped Gti. You mention roll bar protection - do you know anyone that has had accidents involving rolls? I would have thought you would have to get it really wrong to roll one of these, the track days I've been to I'm sure you'd get black flagged before you had a chance to drive that badly?
Sean - I'm just really liking the idea of a superlight. I know how much fun the Gti's can be, my brother has owned a few.
I'd have to say a Westfield is sounding like the best bet at the moment. Bike or car engined, still not sure!
One thing I want to consider also is the width of whatever I go for. At the moment I have access to my dad's garage, but that may not be forever. I have my own garage but it is behind my house and you have to use the shared accessway between my house and next door. I measured it last night and it is 1.545m (I could potentially widen this by maybe 5cm). All I could find on the net is that a Westfield seight is 1.56m, but can't find details of any other Westfields. Can anyone tell me the width measurments?
Thanks everyone,
Karl
Phil. S. said:
I'm surprised you'd prefer a 205 to a caterham. My last track car was a 1.9 205GTi. It was great fun, but nowhere near as much fun as my Westfield.
Caterfields are hell in the winter to live with. I love the idea of getting 250 bhp per tonne out of a seriously stripped out 205 and hassling all sorts of expensive machinery. Adds to the fun
I know of at least 2 rollover accidents in a seven - you do have to be trying pretty hard though. One was on track - the car had an FIA bar fitted and the driver walked away. The other was on road in France and the car had the standard bar fitted - the driver survived but having seen pictures of the car afterwards I would recommend fitting an FIA bar - the driver has had one fitted on his replacement Seven. BTW it wasn't his fault - he rounded a bend to find a local driver on the worng side of the road heading towards him - the rollover happened when the car hit the soft verge in an avoidance manoeuvre.
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