Disappointed with your car at a track day?

[bennyboysvuk]

I'm considering a car track day on a UK circuit, but I've a feeling I'm going to get to the cars limits* so quickly that I'd find it all a bit slow and disappointing. Has anyone ever felt anything like this about their car?

*By the car's limits I mean brakes and suspension.

[GreenV8S]

That rather depends on the car, and the driver, and the track, doesn't it? Most drivers (me included) have lots of room for improvement, and the main fun for me comes from finding and extending my own limits. But if you think you're already a really good driver and you current car isn't enough to challenge your capabilities, don't do it. You probably wouldn't learn much anyway if that's how you see yourself.

[Don]

bennyboysvuk said:

I'm considering a car track day on a UK circuit, but I've a feeling I'm going to get to the cars limits* so quickly that I'd find it all a bit slow and disappointing. Has anyone ever felt anything like this about their car? *By the car's limits I mean brakes and suspension.

The whole point is to get up to the absolute limit and hold it there the whole way round without going over it and falling off.

Some people worry about being overtaken by cars with lots more power - I don't - because I am incredibly well endowed and utterly confident in my manhood.

But you'll be able to enjoy yourself hugely if what you like is the learning process of going faster. Remember - and instructor in your car will punt it round their home track far faster than you will be able to - so the fun is in trying to get that good!

[daydreamer]

Surely you should get to the cars limits at each and every corner?

[hbaumhardt]

Got to the (reasonable) limit of my stock Elise in 9 track days. Then put on adjustable suspension for another 6 track days of fun winding up the damping. Now A048 semi slick tyres should give me another bunch of days new fun. Then drop a 200bhp+ engine in for more new fun. Then goto a bunch of brand new tracks ... endless combinations of new amusement to be had.

[havoc]

bennyboysvuk said:

I'm considering a car track day on a UK circuit, but I've a feeling I'm going to get to the cars limits* so quickly that I'd find it all a bit slow and disappointing. Has anyone ever felt anything like this about their car? *By the car's limits I mean brakes and suspension.

By car I assume you mean your 328 Sport? E36 or E43?

It's going to feel fast, and the suspension will probably lean alarmingly. But don't worry, the BM's are sorted cars and should react predictably, and you'll have a ball, esp. if you haven't done a trackday before.

Brakes would be the main thing to think about before doing it - change the fluid for good stuff (Super DOT-4 or DOT5.1), and see how much meat's left on the pads, ideally change them for fast-road pads if largely worn (NOT too aggressive compound, otherwise they'll eat your disks on a trackday - Mintex 1144 or Ferodo DS2000 would be a good compromise for the odd trackday) - road pads don't tend to last-out a trackday if used hard, esp. not on a roadcar the weight of a 3-series.

Other stuff to check:-
- Tyres: How much tread is left, how are you going to get home if you scrub them (it's been known, particularly with powerful rear-drivers and soft-compound rubber like S02's and Eagle F1's). Bookatrack do a tyre-fitting service at their days.
- Engine: When last serviced? How much oil is in it? Have you got a top-up can of oil?

Otherwise, just round up all the loose crap in the car and leave it at home/in the pits - don't need a map and a bluetooth headset when going through Quarry!. You might also want insurance - Competition Car Insurance are the main providers in the UK, talk to them.


On a serious note - if you want to find the limits of your car, how it reacts, how you react to them, then it's a great idea...just start off sensibly and build up speed, you've got all day on-track, no sense going balls-to-the-wall in the first hour and stuffing her somewhere (likely to be a gravel trap). You're almost certain to enjoy it, if you like road-driving it's kiddy-in-sweetshop time for most.
So:-
- be aware of the car's limits - restrict yourself to 10-15min sessions (so as not to kill the brakes - means that open-pit days are more useful as more flexible),
- keep an eye on oil pressure,
- be courteous to the regulars in their track-specials (that 205 might look an old nail but he could well be quicker than you if he's got a 170bhp Mi16 and slicks),
- take advantage of any instruction offered,
- have fun.

[bennyboysvuk]

havoc said:

By car I assume you mean your 328 Sport? E36 or E43? It's going to feel fast, and the suspension will probably lean alarmingly. But don't worry, the BM's are sorted cars and should react predictably, and you'll have a ball, esp. if you haven't done a trackday before. Brakes would be the main thing to think about before doing it - change the fluid for good stuff (Super DOT-4 or DOT5.1), and see how much meat's left on the pads, ideally change them for fast-road pads if largely worn (NOT too aggressive compound, otherwise they'll eat your disks on a trackday - Mintex 1144 or Ferodo DS2000 would be a good compromise for the odd trackday) - road pads don't tend to last-out a trackday if used hard, esp. not on a roadcar the weight of a 3-series.

Yep, my E36 328 Sport. It's got a couple of things going for it like EBC green stuff pads and grooved discs, but I still think that the brakes will feel poor after a couple of laps which will really put me off. I was thinking about doing Brands Indy since I've raced hundreds of laps there on my bike and I know the place well. I just assume the car will feel a bit slow, heavy and mundane around there and I'll be begging for more power to get the rear squirming at the high speeds that the track surface supports. Incidentally, the tyres are Eagle F1s.

The suspension is Bilstein sprintline dampers with Eibach springs which came highly recommended by other E36 owners. It still rolls, but the ARB's are a bit more pricey than I want to spend on the car currently.

Maybe I should just get over the whole braking and weight thing and just give it a go anyway?

[bennyboysvuk]

GreenV8S said:

That rather depends on the car, and the driver, and the track, doesn't it? Most drivers (me included) have lots of room for improvement, and the main fun for me comes from finding and extending my own limits. But if you think you're already a really good driver and you current car isn't enough to challenge your capabilities, don't do it. You probably wouldn't learn much anyway if that's how you see yourself.

The car is an E36 BMW 328 which I find quite a flattering car. It's easy to provoke understeer and oversteer, but also quite easy to get into a mildly drifting neutral kind of state as well. You could be onto something about the car not being challenging enough though. If only the bank manager agreed.

[havoc]

Your car sounds better set-up than many road&track cars for a trackday. I'd go for it. although after a bike day I suspect even an E36 M3 would feel underpowered.

EBC green's with grooved discs, if you've some good new fluid, should cope adequately with a LITTLE care. My suggestion (worked for the 'teg with brembo blanks and 1144's) would be to do 4-6 hot laps, then one cool-down lap for the brakes. Repeat again (maybe a lap less), then pit at the end of the second cool-down lap. That'll be 15mins easy, and the car will need the rest.

You'll soon find out how the car feels. Most 'fade' will be fluid, not pads with your set-up. So new fluid will help, as will treating them carefully (at least for the morning) - so long as it doesn't boil, the fluid will come back to strength after cooling down. Oh, and the usual leave-the-handbrake-off advice for when in the paddock.

Eagles...not experienced them on-track, but if they're even half-worn, I'd be tempted to order a replacement set to be fitted at the track. Unless it's wet of course, in which case you'll be singing their praises as all the guys with stiff set-ups and cut-slicks find themselves skating.

[bennyboysvuk]

havoc said:

EBC green's with grooved discs, if you've some good new fluid, should cope adequately with a LITTLE care.

They had new fluid about 2 months ago now, but I still find they fade when stopping repeatedly from speed. That said though, I do test them somewhat.

Thanks for your help though. I'll see if I can arrange something for Brands Indy sometime.

[m3pilot]

I did my first rackday in dec and didn't have any problems with the brakes or suspension having said that i was driving a very striped 205 gti with leda -ve camber adjustable suspension so would expect to.

I can't see an E36 325 sport being the ideal choice for a trackday car as even the M3 isn't regarded as a great trackday car. IMHO a trackday car should be light weight and handle well. Then worry about the power. after all my 110BHP 1.6 pug got past and held up by alot more powerfull cars.

[fergus]

bennyboysvuk said:

havoc said: EBC green's with grooved discs, if you've some good new fluid, should cope adequately with a LITTLE care. They had new fluid about 2 months ago now, but I still find they fade when stopping repeatedly from speed. That said though, I do test them somewhat. Thanks for your help though. I'll see if I can arrange something for Brands Indy sometime.

Ben
EBC pads are generally sh1te compared to other more dedicated pads. They are bordering on contravening the trade descriptions act in terms of their quotes on temp stability and fade resistance! What kind of fade do you get? Pedal to the floor, or firm pedal with little retardation? Start with decent (i.e. high dry boiling point) fluid, then go for some 'endurance' pads (typically harder compound). If you're on a budget try ferrodo DS2500 or DS3000+. If not, get some Pagid RS15s ('greys'). Good luck. Remebe it's not a minitwin when you're coming into paddock or into bottom bend. The 328 is a tad heavier than an SV!

[bennyboysvuk]

fergus said:

EBC pads are generally sh1te compared to other more dedicated pads. They are bordering on contravening the trade descriptions act in terms of their quotes on temp stability and fade resistance! What kind of fade do you get? Pedal to the floor, or firm pedal with little retardation? Start with decent (i.e. high dry boiling point) fluid, then go for some 'endurance' pads (typically harder compound). If you're on a budget try ferrodo DS2500 or DS3000+. If not, get some Pagid RS15s ('greys'). Good luck. Remebe it's not a minitwin when you're coming into paddock or into bottom bend. The 328 is a tad heavier than an SV!

Lol. Thanks fergus. The feel on the brake pedal is like there's less friction on the discs and you're therefore pushing the brake pedal harder and further than when they were cool for not even close to the same braking effect.

Ah, the SV. It could lock the front wheel or raise the rear at whatever speed no matter how long I was out on the circuit.

[bennyboysvuk]

m3pilot said:

I can't see an E36 325 sport being the ideal choice for a trackday car as even the M3 isn't regarded as a great trackday car. IMHO a trackday car should be light weight and handle well. Then worry about the power. after all my 110BHP 1.6 pug got past and held up by alot more powerfull cars.

It's a 328 I'll have you know.

I completely agree that a lighter car would be preferable, but I can't really justify that at the moment so my daily hack will have to bear the brunt of my car track day curiosity.

[m3pilot]

quote]It's a 328 I'll have you know. quote]

Doh hit 5 instead of 8, thats what happens when you on the forum in work time!

[brendonj]

Benny,

As per Havov and Fergus, upgrade your brake pads you'll be amazed at the difference it makes.

Stay away from Ebc pads, they're like paper. I had a set of Mintex 1155s on my M3 that lastest 3 trackdays that I was impressed with. However per popoular consensus on e36coupe.com (a great source of info on these cars) the DS2500s are considered the best bang per buck. I have just gone for Pagid yellows on the front and blacks on the back, a bit more expensive than the DS2500s but I did a trackday on sat and was very impressed with them (you will have to put up with them squeling on the roads thou.)

Oh yes, get your brakelines upgraded (goodridge etc) and flush the brake fluid and replace it with a decent dot 4 or 5.

Cheers,
Brendon

[havoc]

Ahh, braided brake hoses - very nice little upgrade, makes the middle pedal feel a lot firmer. But one piece of advice - check where they screw into the pipework every 6-12mths - one of mine worked loose over about 18mths and I discovered it weeping onto the drive. Not serious, but could have become so. I wondered whether it might not have been fitted properly, but asked around and apparently they're more prone to suffer from vibration than ordinary hoses. Others were all OK though, so...


EBC...I thought it was their OLD greenstuff pads that had the bad rep, the new compound (well, 2years ago now) had sorted things. Are people still having problems then? Or is this old info Ferg?

1155's are pretty hardcore for road use - bet the alloys looked black after a trackday, all that dust. Not an expert on Pagid's, how aggressive are the yellow's?

>> Edited by havoc on Wednesday 8th March 20:48

[bennyboysvuk]

I have to say, the EBC greenstuffs haven't exactly blown me away with their consistency. So it looks like the Ferodo DS2500s it is then. Goodridge hoses work out at £66 for a set so they're on the shopping list too.

Thanks all, with any luck the bim will stop rather more consistently than it has ever done before.

[iguana]

Ben- knowing your tail happy road antics, just so you don't get disapointed, you wont be able to play the tail happy drift god at most track days, esp brands, you'll be black flagged & off.

I still think you will enjoy ya self, fun to me isnt speed related, I like driving something as near to its limit as I feel is posible, whereas in something very fast & capable I admit I'd just not have the skill to feel I'd had the best out of the car- rather than the other way around, so just go easy on the brakes bung in new fluid & braided line & throw that EBC cack in the bin 1st!

[havoc]

iguana said:

...fun to me isnt speed related, I like driving something as near to its limit as I feel is posible, whereas in something very fast & capable I admit I'd just not have the skill to feel I'd had the best out of the car- rather than the other way around...

Oh I agree completely.