Track Day friendly insurers
Discussion
As we all know, a lot of policies, whomever they may have been taken out with, are normally underwritten by the usual (bigboy) suspects i.e. Norwich Union, etc.
Egg are now offering car insurance underpinned by "UK Insurance". I spoke to Egg specifically to enquire whether or not trackdays were covered by their (UKI) policies, as I could find no mention of it in the small print on the web. I wasn't convinced that the girl with whom I spoke was 100% sure what a trackday was when she said, "oh yes, that will be fine."
Can anyone shed any light on Egg's trackday cover through personal experience of having one of their policies? The premiums seem pretty competitive. If not Egg, which companies (underwriters) are trackday friendly these days? A Manning's TVR scheme (TVR days only) is too limiting now there are so many other organisers putting on good days.
Thanks in Advance....
Dave.
The problem is that they will never put "includes track day cover" on their policy document, so when you come to buy they say "But of course sir". As soon as your premium hits their pocket it becomes "Well that's motorsport sir and the T&Cs clearly rule that it voids the cover".
Wherever you get it from you need to have a specific phrase, in writing, before you take their word on it. As they say in law, a verbal contract is only worth the paper it is written on!
In law, the fact that it is ambiguous should let you claim and stop this ridiculous practice. But how many of us have the time or money to spend taking insurance companies to court? Look how difficult it is to get a reply from most insurance companies, unless they want you to give them money. One they have your premium, they don't want to know!
It took me 11 months to get my insurance documents last year and that was after the insurance company had supposedly spent £2m on a new customer service centre and staff training.
I was without tax for 2 months as I could not re-tax the car without the cover note, and after being asked to produce my documents at the local nick I was told that under law they have to supply me with it, and I was telling the constable a load of porkies - which I didn't take kindly too and was removed from the nick reception to cool down.
For £2m me and my granny could do a better job.
>> Edited by M-Five on Wednesday 13th November 20:25
Wherever you get it from you need to have a specific phrase, in writing, before you take their word on it. As they say in law, a verbal contract is only worth the paper it is written on!
In law, the fact that it is ambiguous should let you claim and stop this ridiculous practice. But how many of us have the time or money to spend taking insurance companies to court? Look how difficult it is to get a reply from most insurance companies, unless they want you to give them money. One they have your premium, they don't want to know!
It took me 11 months to get my insurance documents last year and that was after the insurance company had supposedly spent £2m on a new customer service centre and staff training.
I was without tax for 2 months as I could not re-tax the car without the cover note, and after being asked to produce my documents at the local nick I was told that under law they have to supply me with it, and I was telling the constable a load of porkies - which I didn't take kindly too and was removed from the nick reception to cool down.
For £2m me and my granny could do a better job.
>> Edited by M-Five on Wednesday 13th November 20:25
1st class rant old boy!I took out a policy with Egg back in june, as they had a decent quote and gave 10% cashback for putting it on my egg card.
I asked about trackday cover too, and was told "yes, we do cover for that. Just tell us a couple of days before you go on the event". Now I did this for one event, fortunately no accident, but all I have ever had is a verbal confirmation which as M-five says probably ain't worth squat. From my understanding though trackdays come under the 'pleasure' part of Social, Domestic & Pleasure. What EXACTLY you are covered for I don't know, as I have asked for details but got no response.
Secondly, as you say dave Egg are run by UK Insurance. Who also run Privilege Insurance and Tesco Insurance. I know this for sure as I have had correspondance from all 4 different companies!
Unfortunately I was in an accident in June, when a guy on a ducati came wide on a bend and leanded on my car. Luckily he was OK, but as the accident wasn't my fault I assumed that it would be sorted fairly quickly. How wrong I was.
Basically, dealing with Egg's claim department has been a continuous hassle and 4 months down the line I am still haven't got a decent valuation on my car, still haven't got my vehicle documents back, and still haven't got the soilicitors on the case to claim back the dough I had to spend on a hire car.
If I was being complimentary, I'd describe them as shambolic. I keep getting sent advertising from Egg about their motor insurance (which I have already, well done
) and the lines that get me are:
"one call claims - most claims sorted with one call!
and
"we haven't sacrificed one iota on quality to bring you these prices"
they are real funny! 
Over the 4 months I must have phoned 20-30 times to get anything done, NOTHING happens if you don't continuously kick uo a fuss. And the people running it are fcuking siht, no question. I have been constantly lied to about about what they will do. Virtually every piece of post I have sent has been lost, including a cheque for the salvage value of the car. They suggested I send another one by recorded delivery, which I did. Two days later I checked to see if it had been recieved, and was told it was received by their post room. After another NINE DAYS of phoning and hassling the cheque finally got to the correct person who could release my car. The distance this cheque had to travel? A total of FOUR FLOORS
They are on a major advertising push at the moment, and this can only make their customer service even more abysmal. More people having policies means more for these numpties to do, which means even less chance of getting anything sorted. They may offer a cheap premium but pray you don't get involved in an accident. They resultant stress will definitely outdo anything you would suffer from an accident.
So yes, I would be interested in decent companies that cover for trackdays too!
I asked about trackday cover too, and was told "yes, we do cover for that. Just tell us a couple of days before you go on the event". Now I did this for one event, fortunately no accident, but all I have ever had is a verbal confirmation which as M-five says probably ain't worth squat. From my understanding though trackdays come under the 'pleasure' part of Social, Domestic & Pleasure. What EXACTLY you are covered for I don't know, as I have asked for details but got no response.
Secondly, as you say dave Egg are run by UK Insurance. Who also run Privilege Insurance and Tesco Insurance. I know this for sure as I have had correspondance from all 4 different companies!
Unfortunately I was in an accident in June, when a guy on a ducati came wide on a bend and leanded on my car. Luckily he was OK, but as the accident wasn't my fault I assumed that it would be sorted fairly quickly. How wrong I was.
Basically, dealing with Egg's claim department has been a continuous hassle and 4 months down the line I am still haven't got a decent valuation on my car, still haven't got my vehicle documents back, and still haven't got the soilicitors on the case to claim back the dough I had to spend on a hire car.
If I was being complimentary, I'd describe them as shambolic. I keep getting sent advertising from Egg about their motor insurance (which I have already, well done
) and the lines that get me are: "one call claims - most claims sorted with one call!
and
"we haven't sacrificed one iota on quality to bring you these prices"
they are real funny! Over the 4 months I must have phoned 20-30 times to get anything done, NOTHING happens if you don't continuously kick uo a fuss. And the people running it are fcuking siht, no question. I have been constantly lied to about about what they will do. Virtually every piece of post I have sent has been lost, including a cheque for the salvage value of the car. They suggested I send another one by recorded delivery, which I did. Two days later I checked to see if it had been recieved, and was told it was received by their post room. After another NINE DAYS of phoning and hassling the cheque finally got to the correct person who could release my car. The distance this cheque had to travel? A total of FOUR FLOORS
They are on a major advertising push at the moment, and this can only make their customer service even more abysmal. More people having policies means more for these numpties to do, which means even less chance of getting anything sorted. They may offer a cheap premium but pray you don't get involved in an accident. They resultant stress will definitely outdo anything you would suffer from an accident.
So yes, I would be interested in decent companies that cover for trackdays too!
I actually think that the insurance companies have a valid case here, but in not publishing what they are actually prepared to insure, they are losing any sympathy that customers may have.
Reading some of the track reports on pistonheads, there is a ten percent rate of attrition on many of the days. This is pretty high, and certainly more than you would expect for a Sunday afternoon drive. This is borne out by the high cost of specialist track day insuracnes.
However, because none of the companies appear to want to let us know what they are prepared to cover, then they have to expect arguements. If, as they say, customers using track days are a small percentage, then they should either be covered (small no of customers so absorb the risk), or be told that they are not covered and let them make up their own minds as to if they wish to continue cover.
This is not the same as the BMW warrenty thread. Being told that my gearbox is no longer under warrenty because I have approached the red line (why do they have a red line if the allowable revs are only half that) is shocking. I shall be getting an S2000 rather than a BM next year!
Reading some of the track reports on pistonheads, there is a ten percent rate of attrition on many of the days. This is pretty high, and certainly more than you would expect for a Sunday afternoon drive. This is borne out by the high cost of specialist track day insuracnes.
However, because none of the companies appear to want to let us know what they are prepared to cover, then they have to expect arguements. If, as they say, customers using track days are a small percentage, then they should either be covered (small no of customers so absorb the risk), or be told that they are not covered and let them make up their own minds as to if they wish to continue cover.
This is not the same as the BMW warrenty thread. Being told that my gearbox is no longer under warrenty because I have approached the red line (why do they have a red line if the allowable revs are only half that) is shocking. I shall be getting an S2000 rather than a BM next year!
Daydreamer
How did you come up with the 10% attrition rate for trackdays?
I have attended 6 trackdays involving literally hundreds of cars. In those 6 events there were 2 incidents.
One was at an airfield and the driver admitted he was being a bit of an arse through some standing water and hit the only barrier (ironically it was a portable crowd control barrier) on the whole track. The side of the car needed re-skinning. Say £8k for repairs
The other was at Donnington when a guy was driving too close and hit a barrier backwards whilst trying to avoid a spinner. Car was a write off. About £18k cost
In my statistically unsound sample, that works out at less than 0.5% of accidents to participants (assuming 80 cars per day, which is about right). That still works out at an average cost of £79 per car to pay for the insurance company's costs. But then you need to factor in the stats from 'normal' road accidents to people under cover to see how this compares before drawing any conclusions.
To put this in context, my company used to have a claim to vehicle ratio of 3:2 each year - i.e one and a half claims per year, per vehicle.
I would argue that there are high and low risk drivers and this applies both on track and off. Just because I attend a track day it doesn't mean I am a high risk. As a low risk driver, I am also a low risk when on a track.
The two incidents I referred to above could easily have happened on the road (driving like an arse and driving too close are all too evident on the roads) - and had they done so on the road there would almost certainly have been other road users involved, possibly pedestrians - the costs could have been a lot higher.
Anyway - here endeth the lesson....
How did you come up with the 10% attrition rate for trackdays?
I have attended 6 trackdays involving literally hundreds of cars. In those 6 events there were 2 incidents.
One was at an airfield and the driver admitted he was being a bit of an arse through some standing water and hit the only barrier (ironically it was a portable crowd control barrier) on the whole track. The side of the car needed re-skinning. Say £8k for repairs
The other was at Donnington when a guy was driving too close and hit a barrier backwards whilst trying to avoid a spinner. Car was a write off. About £18k cost
In my statistically unsound sample, that works out at less than 0.5% of accidents to participants (assuming 80 cars per day, which is about right). That still works out at an average cost of £79 per car to pay for the insurance company's costs. But then you need to factor in the stats from 'normal' road accidents to people under cover to see how this compares before drawing any conclusions.
To put this in context, my company used to have a claim to vehicle ratio of 3:2 each year - i.e one and a half claims per year, per vehicle.
I would argue that there are high and low risk drivers and this applies both on track and off. Just because I attend a track day it doesn't mean I am a high risk. As a low risk driver, I am also a low risk when on a track.
The two incidents I referred to above could easily have happened on the road (driving like an arse and driving too close are all too evident on the roads) - and had they done so on the road there would almost certainly have been other road users involved, possibly pedestrians - the costs could have been a lot higher.
Anyway - here endeth the lesson....
Lesson noted. The stat wasn't quite made up, but one that stuck in my mind from reading the track reviews. The nurburgring.org.uk site also makes for interesting (if a little scary) readings (although this is a pubic road so doesn't qualify as a track).
Still think that risks are higher on a track (IMHO only of course). Only been on track four times and don't think that I drive like an idiot. But some of the thrill comes by driving closer to the edge - brake later, turn in faster etc. That is what gets the heart rate up and makes everyone love it. Stands to reason if you're pushing harder, colser to the edge, then the liklihood of a crash is higher.
Admit that you may still be safer on a track than someone else on the road, but very difficult to legislate for this. The second point is perhaps more valid, if they aren't going to cover track days, then they should have the decency to say so. Must say 3:2 claim ratio sounds high - how can people crash that often?
Anyway, feeling suitably humbled
.
Not against TD's at all, and I'd love them to be included on my insurance policy. All I'm saying si I can see why they may be excluded - just like to know about it before I do thousands of pounds worth of damage.
>> Edited by daydreamer on Thursday 14th November 18:17
Still think that risks are higher on a track (IMHO only of course). Only been on track four times and don't think that I drive like an idiot. But some of the thrill comes by driving closer to the edge - brake later, turn in faster etc. That is what gets the heart rate up and makes everyone love it. Stands to reason if you're pushing harder, colser to the edge, then the liklihood of a crash is higher.
Admit that you may still be safer on a track than someone else on the road, but very difficult to legislate for this. The second point is perhaps more valid, if they aren't going to cover track days, then they should have the decency to say so. Must say 3:2 claim ratio sounds high - how can people crash that often?
Anyway, feeling suitably humbled
. Not against TD's at all, and I'd love them to be included on my insurance policy. All I'm saying si I can see why they may be excluded - just like to know about it before I do thousands of pounds worth of damage.
>> Edited by daydreamer on Thursday 14th November 18:17
Agreed mate - I can also understand why they might exclude them - or charge an extra premium. There will always be nutters on and off track. The majority don't need a track to have a prang.
I 'push it' harder on a track too - but only because
1) I know the road ahead
2) There's nothing coming the other way (ususally)
3) Little Johnny isn't going to run across the road
4) (Not really relevant to the debate) Plod isn't hiding round the corner.
I am still weighing up the risks though - possibly more than I do on the road as I give it 100% concentration 100% of the time - and I can't say I ALWAYS do that on the road. If there is a load of armco on the outside of the bend, I'm not going to practice my Richard Burns impression on that corner.
But give me Bedford Autodrome and I'll drive like I have an unlimited rear tyre budget
(except on turn 8, nasty wall with a TVR magnet on it).
BTW: Our company claim ratio is not all crashes - its claims. So it includes thefts and all the scrotes chucking bricks through windows to help themselves to car radios, mobile phones, laptops. We used to have a very high proportion of Mercs, BMWs and hot hatches in the fleet, which didn't help.
One of my more embarassing track day related moments was Redline magazine hosting and doing an article on 'Real life' Gran Turismo at Oulton Park (it was a free trackday, ok?). They did a little inset feature thing on me (I think because I was the only one there with an estate car (with slicks, naturally)).
They made some stuff up and missquoted me horribly. It started 'Andy's a no-nonsense kind of guy who rags his car round a track like his arse is on fire'.
I'm a chartered accountant for God's sake. They can't say things like that!!! Fortunately the senior partner thought it was funny....
I 'push it' harder on a track too - but only because
1) I know the road ahead
2) There's nothing coming the other way (ususally)
3) Little Johnny isn't going to run across the road
4) (Not really relevant to the debate) Plod isn't hiding round the corner.
I am still weighing up the risks though - possibly more than I do on the road as I give it 100% concentration 100% of the time - and I can't say I ALWAYS do that on the road. If there is a load of armco on the outside of the bend, I'm not going to practice my Richard Burns impression on that corner.
But give me Bedford Autodrome and I'll drive like I have an unlimited rear tyre budget
(except on turn 8, nasty wall with a TVR magnet on it). BTW: Our company claim ratio is not all crashes - its claims. So it includes thefts and all the scrotes chucking bricks through windows to help themselves to car radios, mobile phones, laptops. We used to have a very high proportion of Mercs, BMWs and hot hatches in the fleet, which didn't help.
One of my more embarassing track day related moments was Redline magazine hosting and doing an article on 'Real life' Gran Turismo at Oulton Park (it was a free trackday, ok?). They did a little inset feature thing on me (I think because I was the only one there with an estate car (with slicks, naturally)).
They made some stuff up and missquoted me horribly. It started 'Andy's a no-nonsense kind of guy who rags his car round a track like his arse is on fire'.
I'm a chartered accountant for God's sake. They can't say things like that!!! Fortunately the senior partner thought it was funny....
LOL.
We keep threatening to take the MD's T5 out - a definite wolf in sheeps clothing, but he's not too keen. Unfortunately after becoming a statistic myself early last year (premature end to much loved MR2), I'm presently relegated to a bouncy A3. This isn't even any fun on the drive into work - so I tend to solve all of my problems at the moment by going to organised driving days (i.e. they supply the cars).
At least I don't have to worry about the insurance!
We keep threatening to take the MD's T5 out - a definite wolf in sheeps clothing, but he's not too keen. Unfortunately after becoming a statistic myself early last year (premature end to much loved MR2), I'm presently relegated to a bouncy A3. This isn't even any fun on the drive into work - so I tend to solve all of my problems at the moment by going to organised driving days (i.e. they supply the cars).
At least I don't have to worry about the insurance!
I have always used a policy from PerformaceMarque, whcih is actually an NU policy. Before this year, it included trackday insurance, unlimited number of days, by any organiser. I always obtained a cover note for the day by phoning PerformanceMarque before the day.
At renewal time time this year, the policy only provided cover for three trackdays, organised by PCGB.
So, I did the big ring-around. Egg use the same call centre as BarclayCard and Tesco. Different phone numbers, but you talk to the same staff. Who you get to talk to determines the cover. I have asked to talk to the same person at the call centre, BarclayCard Insurance in this case. They have consulted an underwritter, trackdays are included as part of the standard policy. Findeing a call centre operative that understands what a trackday is, decides the outcome.
I have a BarclayCard standard policy, protected NCD, partner as an additional driver, european cover, etc. etc. including trackday cover.
This policy came into effect in August 2002. I have done three trackdays since then, all differnt organisers. One of the days was at Spa, i.e. European travel and Trackday.
No problem.
Using the WEB sites, i.e. getting on-line quotes, isn't the way to go, call them, have all details of your car(s), drivers, and cover required at your fingertips. If necessary ask to speak to an underwritter.
Edited to include: My car has performance mods, e.g. chiped, brake ducts, non standard brakes, racing fluid, etc. etc. Tell the call centre operative. Then, no come back from a loss adjuster in the event of a trackday claim. To repeat, the trick is getting to talk to the right call centre operative.
>> Edited by Pete Cros on Friday 15th November 14:07
At renewal time time this year, the policy only provided cover for three trackdays, organised by PCGB.
So, I did the big ring-around. Egg use the same call centre as BarclayCard and Tesco. Different phone numbers, but you talk to the same staff. Who you get to talk to determines the cover. I have asked to talk to the same person at the call centre, BarclayCard Insurance in this case. They have consulted an underwritter, trackdays are included as part of the standard policy. Findeing a call centre operative that understands what a trackday is, decides the outcome.
I have a BarclayCard standard policy, protected NCD, partner as an additional driver, european cover, etc. etc. including trackday cover.
This policy came into effect in August 2002. I have done three trackdays since then, all differnt organisers. One of the days was at Spa, i.e. European travel and Trackday.
No problem.
Using the WEB sites, i.e. getting on-line quotes, isn't the way to go, call them, have all details of your car(s), drivers, and cover required at your fingertips. If necessary ask to speak to an underwritter.
Edited to include: My car has performance mods, e.g. chiped, brake ducts, non standard brakes, racing fluid, etc. etc. Tell the call centre operative. Then, no come back from a loss adjuster in the event of a trackday claim. To repeat, the trick is getting to talk to the right call centre operative.
>> Edited by Pete Cros on Friday 15th November 14:07
My TVR policy is with Privilege now, who surprised me by undercutting my old insurer by £00s even after an extra SP50.
The policy says, among other things, "no racing", but not "no driving round a track".
I rang up and said "am I covered for a track day? I won't be racing but I will be on a circuit". After the person at the other end went of to check, I was told "no problem - you're covered". I tape-recorded the conversation (as indeed the insurer will have had to do by law) and asked the person's name.
There is no way that they could have refused a claim after that. So it might be worth giving Privilege a try.
The policy says, among other things, "no racing", but not "no driving round a track".
I rang up and said "am I covered for a track day? I won't be racing but I will be on a circuit". After the person at the other end went of to check, I was told "no problem - you're covered". I tape-recorded the conversation (as indeed the insurer will have had to do by law) and asked the person's name.
There is no way that they could have refused a claim after that. So it might be worth giving Privilege a try.
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