RE: Warranty Troubles
Wednesday 13th November 2002
Warranty Troubles
Should track days invalidate a warranty?
Discussion
That the mechanical failure was an ‘extremely rare’ occurrence, despite the fact that Carter knows of at least one other M owner who has experienced the same problem.
'Scuse me but isn't this the whole f****ng point of a warrantee. So that any rare failure in the car is sorted out for you???????
So BMW are saying that cos its rare the warantee doesn't cover it.
Whether or not this poor bloke has been on a track day or not should be irrelavant. BMW engineer the cars to take such abuse.
Andy
I own an M5 which I was looking forward to spanking around a track,but given the fact the thing goes wrong being driven on public roads God only knows what it will do to itself on a track. As someone pointed out BMW have used tracks to launch and demonstrate its models, does this mean that anybody who has bought a BMW ex demo from BMW could well be buying a car with no warranty under BMW's rules. If I buy another M car (my current car is an ex demo) I will demand a signed statement from BMW saying that the car has never been tracked. By the same right BM should make available their records to see which cars they sold on as demos have been tracked, as, by default, they are saying that track use puts unacceptable demands on the cars,hence invalidating the warranty and seriously reducing the value of the car.Owners of these cars should have a very valid and strong compensation claim.
Isn't this the same as the SMG easter egg quandry?
Why do BMW bill them selves as builders of the "Ultimate Driving Machine" then not engineer their cars to be able to stand the strain of the damands of the "Ultimate Driver".
With one hand they give the "M Power" badge and with the other they take the ability to in clear conscience to enjoy all that it implies.
It's all a bit of ripoff isn't it?
Mouse
Why do BMW bill them selves as builders of the "Ultimate Driving Machine" then not engineer their cars to be able to stand the strain of the damands of the "Ultimate Driver".
With one hand they give the "M Power" badge and with the other they take the ability to in clear conscience to enjoy all that it implies.
It's all a bit of ripoff isn't it?
Mouse
This is just plain crazy. BMW 'pride' themselves on testing their cars to destruction through motorsport and their vault-like build quality, yet when a customer tries and proves them wrong, they get all defensive. As a manufacturer of driver's cars, BMW should know the sort of people they sell to and the sort of things they enjoy.
Arno said: AFAIK the same sort of 'track use voids warranty' clauses are in the warranty documents of Caterham(now there's a pure road car that wil neeever see a track! *cough* *cough*), Lotus (ditto!) and others.
So it's not that uncommon.
Bye, Arno.
I have to agree. Any warranty I have seen says that track/comp driv/ whatever use will invalidate the warranty.
With the ongoing boom in track days the manufacturers are bound to close the doors on what will be an increasing large number of claims.
It is further proof that although these vehicles are sold as one thing, they are often far from able to deliver.
Ultimately there will need to be a warranty test case, maybe this is it, to determine the legitmacy of the manufacturers current position regarding track use of a vehicle in a non competitive event.
Although they are built to go this fast they are not built to driven this fast and hard round a track all day and then again and again.
Cars are built with the majority in mind. The majority will not take them on track ... ever ... they may not even drive them enthusiastically.
Ultimately as drivers of performance vehicles who use those vehicle performance on a track we are in the minority and therefor will struggle to get anywhere on these issues.
The manufacturers will continue to advertise their cars as the 'ultimate driving' machines and expect the majority never toexploit the potential they actually have.
Sad but true .....
hi,
just wondering how bmw took notice of the track day use. i did the same with my new m3 together with a friend. after 6000 miles, we (both m3's) had total engine blast..mine with a big hole in the block! there was no problem with warranty, although they also said it would be extremely rare..
costs were about 20k euros each!
just wondering how bmw took notice of the track day use. i did the same with my new m3 together with a friend. after 6000 miles, we (both m3's) had total engine blast..mine with a big hole in the block! there was no problem with warranty, although they also said it would be extremely rare..
costs were about 20k euros each!
hmmm... and to think the Nurburgring taxi's are M5's...
www.nurburgring.org/taxi.html
Mind you, they get 'disposed of & replaced' every 18,000k's (but that is supposed to be chassis warp)
www.nurburgring.org/taxi.html
Mind you, they get 'disposed of & replaced' every 18,000k's (but that is supposed to be chassis warp)
Steve
These bits off BMW's own website www.bmw.de/de/services/Fahrertraining/index.htmlmay help your cause (sorry its a bit long):
Driver Training with BMW M cars.
Are you an enthusiastic driver with a particular liking for sports cars and high-performance cars? Then it's clearly a sensible idea to practice the most important driving maneuvers in extreme situations at the wheel of a BMW M car. As a developer and manufacturer of sport-oriented vehicles, BMW is aware of its special responsibility in this respect, and this special training therefore offers drivers an individual introduction to M Power, from theory through chassis and suspension design, the SMG gearbox and driving practice on the racing circuit. You can be certain that we pull out all the stops when it comes to BMW M Power driving. Experience this special sensation with a group of people who think the way you do.
Most (if not all!) pictures under the Driver Training section show BMW's on racetracks!!
Perfection training.
Target group:
For drivers who wish to perfect their driving style.
Car:
BMW M3 SMG is supplied.
Requirement:
BMW Intensive Training must have been completed.
This training course brings your driving skills up to maximum level. It is held on various well-known racing circuits, and simulates just about every potential risk situation at 'autobahn' speeds. The course includes dynamic driving elements that prepare you for fast laps of the racing circuit. You will learn to drift and to follow the ideal line.
Intensive training M3.
Target group:
For drivers who wish to intensify their skills in the BMW M3.
Car:
BMW M3 SMG is supplied.
Requirement:
A one-day course must have been completed.
This course carries on from advanced training by practicing risk situations at main-road speeds. Exercises such as braking and obstruction avoidance when cornering, double emergency lane changing and the effects of under- and oversteer enhance your knowledge of road-vehicle dynamics. You will sense the performance potential and superiority of the SMG gearbox and the M3's modern management systems. A final test run and laps of the circuit with supervision by the instructor are included.
Racetrack experience.
Target group:
Climax of the training program for the motor sport enthusiast.
Car:
BMW M3 SMG is supplied.
Requirement:
Racetrack Fascination training must have been completed.
Pure, dynamic driving at high speeds. Coordinated training held on various well-known racing circuits. Make the acquaintance of a no-compromise car and sample the character of a racing circuit. The focus is on finding the ideal line when lapping the circuit. Wearing a helmet is compulsory. Revel in the dynamic character of the car and the feeling of having it under perfect control.
Nordschleife Circuit training.
Target group:
The highspot for those who know and are fascinated by the Nordschleife of the Nürburg Ring racetrack.
Car:
BMW 330i SMG, M3 SMG or M5 is supplied.
Services provided:
Sample our cars where the BMW engineers and chassis specialists do their own testing and tuning: in the labyrinth of bends known as the "Green Hell". This cleverly planned training course includes handling exercises and instruction on finding the ideal line, but also how to work out braking points, controlled over- and understeer and correct steering when approaching and leaving bends.
The highspot: pace-car laps on this 21-km long circuit.
>> Edited by griff2be on Wednesday 13th November 14:32
>> Edited by griff2be on Wednesday 13th November 14:33
>> Edited by griff2be on Wednesday 13th November 14:35
These bits off BMW's own website www.bmw.de/de/services/Fahrertraining/index.htmlmay help your cause (sorry its a bit long):
Driver Training with BMW M cars.
Are you an enthusiastic driver with a particular liking for sports cars and high-performance cars? Then it's clearly a sensible idea to practice the most important driving maneuvers in extreme situations at the wheel of a BMW M car. As a developer and manufacturer of sport-oriented vehicles, BMW is aware of its special responsibility in this respect, and this special training therefore offers drivers an individual introduction to M Power, from theory through chassis and suspension design, the SMG gearbox and driving practice on the racing circuit. You can be certain that we pull out all the stops when it comes to BMW M Power driving. Experience this special sensation with a group of people who think the way you do.
Most (if not all!) pictures under the Driver Training section show BMW's on racetracks!!
Perfection training.
Target group:
For drivers who wish to perfect their driving style.
Car:
BMW M3 SMG is supplied.
Requirement:
BMW Intensive Training must have been completed.
This training course brings your driving skills up to maximum level. It is held on various well-known racing circuits, and simulates just about every potential risk situation at 'autobahn' speeds. The course includes dynamic driving elements that prepare you for fast laps of the racing circuit. You will learn to drift and to follow the ideal line.
Intensive training M3.
Target group:
For drivers who wish to intensify their skills in the BMW M3.
Car:
BMW M3 SMG is supplied.
Requirement:
A one-day course must have been completed.
This course carries on from advanced training by practicing risk situations at main-road speeds. Exercises such as braking and obstruction avoidance when cornering, double emergency lane changing and the effects of under- and oversteer enhance your knowledge of road-vehicle dynamics. You will sense the performance potential and superiority of the SMG gearbox and the M3's modern management systems. A final test run and laps of the circuit with supervision by the instructor are included.
Racetrack experience.
Target group:
Climax of the training program for the motor sport enthusiast.
Car:
BMW M3 SMG is supplied.
Requirement:
Racetrack Fascination training must have been completed.
Pure, dynamic driving at high speeds. Coordinated training held on various well-known racing circuits. Make the acquaintance of a no-compromise car and sample the character of a racing circuit. The focus is on finding the ideal line when lapping the circuit. Wearing a helmet is compulsory. Revel in the dynamic character of the car and the feeling of having it under perfect control.
Nordschleife Circuit training.
Target group:
The highspot for those who know and are fascinated by the Nordschleife of the Nürburg Ring racetrack.
Car:
BMW 330i SMG, M3 SMG or M5 is supplied.
Services provided:
Sample our cars where the BMW engineers and chassis specialists do their own testing and tuning: in the labyrinth of bends known as the "Green Hell". This cleverly planned training course includes handling exercises and instruction on finding the ideal line, but also how to work out braking points, controlled over- and understeer and correct steering when approaching and leaving bends.
The highspot: pace-car laps on this 21-km long circuit.
>> Edited by griff2be on Wednesday 13th November 14:32
>> Edited by griff2be on Wednesday 13th November 14:33
>> Edited by griff2be on Wednesday 13th November 14:35
Watch any motoring program nowadays and you see BMW and Merc, indeed any car being driven sideways.. step forward Jason Plato and Tiff to name but two. The program should point out that this type of driving is not covered by BMW under term of their warranty as it seems to be competetive ie this car is better than the other cars we are testing today!!!
Could Clarkson take up this cos he hates BMW?
P
Could Clarkson take up this cos he hates BMW?
P
Think how often race cars get serviced - after every hour or two of racing, even then they suffer mechanical failures (and not just things that have been trimmed to the edge to save weight etc). It's unrealistic to expect a manufacturer to honour a warranty on a vehicle that has been thrashed around a racetrack for what could well be thousands of miles within a decent warranty period.
You expect tyres, brakes etc to suffer from such hard use, why should it be the fault of the manufacturer if other mechanical parts suffer premature wear?
You expect tyres, brakes etc to suffer from such hard use, why should it be the fault of the manufacturer if other mechanical parts suffer premature wear?
Hang on a minute. Race cars are generally engineered for maximum performance and minimum weight. Components are designed to be as light as possible so that they are just strong enough to do the job. The line between too light and not strong enough is fine and hence a lot of the failures. Engines are generally at a much higher state of tune and therefore more fragile.
Road cars, on the other hand, are built with a considerable margin for reliability and longevity.
A track day is NOT a race and although the car may put under more strain than it may generally endure on the road, I do not see why a track day per se should void a warranty.
Certain items will wear prematurely - tyres and brakes for example, and no-one would suggest that a warranty should pick up the tab for these. (Actually, as BMW claim that their brakes are race car technology and designed to endure the most extreme use, arguably their discs (not pads) should be up to the job). However, major components should not fail and should be covered by warranty.
In Steve's case it sounds like things got hot, a pin shrank and a massive failure resulted.
I'm no engineer, but if Steve had been caught in a massive traffic jam in the height of summer - surely things would have got even hotter?
Equally he could have gone for a thrash up an down a mountain. It would arguably put far more strain on the car.
My point is that abuse may be a valid reason for not honouring a warranty claim. For example, driving around with the hand brake on, full bore starts every time you pull away, riding the clutch, not having oil in the car. But driving on a track day is not prima facea evidence of abuse.
On the contrary, I find the majority of people who drive nice cars at trackdays are the most mechanically sympathetic drivers. How many times do you see a row of people checking tyre pressures and oil levels, warming the car up and allowing the car to cool after use. And then checking all of the above again. And being tuned into the noises the car makes and being aware if something is not quite right.
Look out of the office window at 5pm and you'll see hundreds of people jump in cold cars and rev the nuts off them from cold. Are they invalidating their warranties?
No-one I know drives their car in a manner which they think is likely to damage it, thinking 'I don't care, I've got a warranty'. They look after their cars.
And finally - BMW states that rallying, racing and similar COMPETITIVE sports invalidate the warranty.
There is not a trackday in the country which is run as a competitive event. BMW's argument is factually wrong and I wish Steve the best of luck against them.
(Next time, Steve, take it to a different dealer who knows nothing of your track days!)
>> Edited by griff2be on Wednesday 13th November 16:26
Road cars, on the other hand, are built with a considerable margin for reliability and longevity.
A track day is NOT a race and although the car may put under more strain than it may generally endure on the road, I do not see why a track day per se should void a warranty.
Certain items will wear prematurely - tyres and brakes for example, and no-one would suggest that a warranty should pick up the tab for these. (Actually, as BMW claim that their brakes are race car technology and designed to endure the most extreme use, arguably their discs (not pads) should be up to the job). However, major components should not fail and should be covered by warranty.
In Steve's case it sounds like things got hot, a pin shrank and a massive failure resulted.
I'm no engineer, but if Steve had been caught in a massive traffic jam in the height of summer - surely things would have got even hotter?
Equally he could have gone for a thrash up an down a mountain. It would arguably put far more strain on the car.
My point is that abuse may be a valid reason for not honouring a warranty claim. For example, driving around with the hand brake on, full bore starts every time you pull away, riding the clutch, not having oil in the car. But driving on a track day is not prima facea evidence of abuse.
On the contrary, I find the majority of people who drive nice cars at trackdays are the most mechanically sympathetic drivers. How many times do you see a row of people checking tyre pressures and oil levels, warming the car up and allowing the car to cool after use. And then checking all of the above again. And being tuned into the noises the car makes and being aware if something is not quite right.
Look out of the office window at 5pm and you'll see hundreds of people jump in cold cars and rev the nuts off them from cold. Are they invalidating their warranties?
No-one I know drives their car in a manner which they think is likely to damage it, thinking 'I don't care, I've got a warranty'. They look after their cars.
And finally - BMW states that rallying, racing and similar COMPETITIVE sports invalidate the warranty.
There is not a trackday in the country which is run as a competitive event. BMW's argument is factually wrong and I wish Steve the best of luck against them.
(Next time, Steve, take it to a different dealer who knows nothing of your track days!)
>> Edited by griff2be on Wednesday 13th November 16:26
Hi people.
Thanks for the interest and support.
I've received a 'whole bunch' of e-mails today regarding my situation. Thanks to Pistonheads (and you kind souls) for standing up and being counted.
I'm hoping this issue will make the national press, because, whatever BMW say, I think we need at least to establish whether cars that claim to be of 'motorsport' quality are the real thing.
Plus, If they decide track days, skid pans, and advanced driver training will mean the the warranty will not be honoured, I'd like to know why.
But to me, the most important thing is that BMW let us know why non-competitive driver improvement days are considered "racing, rallying or competitive sport".
They don't seem to want to tell me.
Thanks for the interest and support.
I've received a 'whole bunch' of e-mails today regarding my situation. Thanks to Pistonheads (and you kind souls) for standing up and being counted.
I'm hoping this issue will make the national press, because, whatever BMW say, I think we need at least to establish whether cars that claim to be of 'motorsport' quality are the real thing.
Plus, If they decide track days, skid pans, and advanced driver training will mean the the warranty will not be honoured, I'd like to know why.
But to me, the most important thing is that BMW let us know why non-competitive driver improvement days are considered "racing, rallying or competitive sport".
They don't seem to want to tell me.
Get real everyone.This incident could actually be the owners fault and not the cars.If there were any real issues BMW would recall every E46 M3 ever made and rectify the fault.If you want serious problems look at Audi,the RS4 that bends wheels and what about the tt that takes off.These are big issues that occured with normal driving not track driving.If BMW intended for the car to be raced then it would come with a roll cage and slicks.
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