Pad recommendations for a friend

[IdiotRace]

I took a friend for his first ever trackday at Donington on Friday and he had a great time. However he did find the limits of his factory brakes on the day, we did bleed them beforehand with some uprated Motul fluid but kept the factory pads as they had a lot of meat on them.

The car in question is a MK2 TTRS, the car is still on just regular Michelin PS4's but he might be looking at some smaller wheels to put something stickier on. So we are looking for an uprated pad that will work for his car. I use Carbotech XP8 and my other friend uses some kind of hawk pad but our cars have half the power and are also a fair bit lighter (gt86 and nc mx5) plus my pads are not great on the road as they sound like a train and dust really badly but my car isn't really used that much so I don't care.

So I'm looking for a pad that can stand up to track abuse but isn't too extreme really, the factory setup is pretty beefy anyway as it's got some pretty big 4 pot brembos with a 370mm disc. My first thought was DS2500's but years ago I chewed through a set in a single trackday in my old turbo mr2 so maybe one up with the DS11.11 or whatever it's called?

Pagid was another option but I really can't figure out which one is a trackday compound? Is it the RS29? Same goes for carbone lorraine would it be the RC5+ or RC6?

[Paul_M3]

Everyone will have their own opinion on pads, but I'm a big fan of the Pagid RSL29's. I've used them on various cars over the years, and currently run them on my Exige.

They might not have the outright bite of some newer pads on the market, but they work fine on the road, last well on track, are very kind to discs, and don't generate lots of corrosive dust. On track the bite is significantly better than something like a DS2500, and I never seem to be able to get them to fade (although obviously that will be car dependent)

[IdiotRace]

Theres a RS29 and RSL29, is there a difference between the two?

[E-bmw]

IdiotRace said:

Theres a RS29 and RSL29, is there a difference between the two?

I believe RSL is the new name for RS29, so you may come across places with RS29 in stock.

Either these or DS1.11 would be my opinion.

Both come in at £300 (ish) or more but both will last well over a year of TDs unless you are out a couple of times a week.

[IdiotRace]

I'm definitely erring towards the Pagids, but doing a bit of research on the pad diagrams they seem to be missing the slot for the wear sensor that the oem pads have.

I might try them too once I've gone through my carbotechs but thats gonna be a while I think.

[E-bmw]

They don't normally have pad wear sensors, they are endurance racing pads.

[IdiotRace]

Yeah I kinda thought that, funny thing is the pad shape is also identical to the brembos on my 86 without the sensor indent. I'm assuming people tracking these must short the sensor out to stop it complaining if you run these pads.

[Kaveney]

Winmax W6.5 are worth a look . Good on track but fine for the road and no noise from them on the road either .

[E-bmw]

IdiotRace said:

Yeah I kinda thought that, funny thing is the pad shape is also identical to the brembos on my 86 without the sensor indent. I'm assuming people tracking these must short the sensor out to stop it complaining if you run these pads.

You don't short it out, that will bring it into pad worn, just tie the sensor wire out of the way with a cable tie.

[Niffty951]

I'm seriously impressed with the new EBC Bluestuff pads. Not only are they currently pretty cheap to buy, I guess still trying to build a reputation, but I'm struggling to think of a better track pad I've used on a heavier (1400kg+) car.

Quick rundown of my experience with other pads I can remember:

EBC Yellow stuff/Red Stuff - Great bite but awful pads. Friction changes with temp so you're always chasing the right brake pressure. Cooked both varieties in one 20min session in a 1550kg car.

Mintex 1144 - Best bite of any pad I've driven. Superb in lighter cars (Mini/Exige) but over temp on track if car over ~1400kg

EBC Green stuff - Very similar to the Mintex, not as good when cold (maybe) better when up to temp but also overtemp in anything heavy like a TT.

Pagid RS14 - lovely consistency, excellent durability, lower friction so pedal firmer, horrible on the road. Squealing like train brakes and numb.

Carbon Lorrain - poor fit in calipers so rattle unless freshly lubed in copper grease and cooked in 2 laps on the Nurburgring (Evora S). Only good thing is they will recover and brake well after being over temperature.

Brembo HP2000 Performance - Good cold bite. Narrow operating window, they get better and better with temperature, then go over quickly and deposit material on the disks leading to judder. Also, once over temp a couple of times they turn to blocks of wood.

EBC Bluestuff - Not a much bite as Mintex or other EBC pads, but lovely and consistent like the Pagid, slightly more bite than Pagid and far less squealing on the road (very occasional squeak). I've yet to seriously over temperature them on track, even in my 1850kg Tesla! Also tried on a lighter GR86 and they have worn very well.

Edited by Niffty951 on Wednesday 25th June 12:14

[Paul_M3]

E-bmw said:

You don't short it out, that will bring it into pad worn,

This is incorrect...

E-bmw said:

just tie the sensor wire out of the way with a cable tie.

...but this is indeed a better solution

[E-bmw]

Paul_M3 said:

E-bmw said:

You don't short it out, that will bring it into pad worn,

This is incorrect...

It may be car dependant then as on a car (can't remember which) I had several years ago shorting out the wire did exactly that, so I had to replace the sensor wire & wire run it out of the way, hence the second solution.

Paul_M3 said:

E-bmw said:

just tie the sensor wire out of the way with a cable tie.

...but this is indeed a better solution

[Ian-27xza]

I think a TTRS would struggle with the DS2500 over a trackday.

My car is 1340kg (Tarox 8 piston calipers, Tarox F2000 330mm 2 piece discs, Motul 660 fluid, Goodridge braided lines, Yokohama AO52 tyres) and I use Ferodo DS Uno pads.

Lap 70 of Goodwood feels identical to lap 2 of Goodwood, over a half day session. Zero fade, 100% consistency - inspires a lot of confidence, lap after lap.

[E-bmw]

DS Uno are another pretty good call, although they aren't too common.

[Paul_M3]

E-bmw said:

It may be car dependant then as on a car (can't remember which) I had several years ago shorting out the wire did exactly that, so I had to replace the sensor wire & wire run it out of the way, hence the second solution.

I think it's more likely you're either misremembering, or you didn't short the wires correctly.

Personally I've never come across a circuit the brings up the alarm on a short circuit rather than open circuit.

But even if yours did work like that, what you've said makes little sense. If the alarm was up with the circuit shorted, to clear the alarm you'd just need to 'un-short' (open circuit) it. Either by untwisting the wires you'd twisted, cutting the cable, or simply unplugging it. You wouldn't need to buy a new sensor and tie it out of the way.

[E-bmw]

Paul_M3 said:

E-bmw said:

It may be car dependant then as on a car (can't remember which) I had several years ago shorting out the wire did exactly that, so I had to replace the sensor wire & wire run it out of the way, hence the second solution.

I think it's more likely you're either misremembering, or you didn't short the wires correctly.

Personally I've never come across a circuit the brings up the alarm on a short circuit rather than open circuit.

But even if yours did work like that, what you've said makes little sense. If the alarm was up with the circuit shorted, to clear the alarm you'd just need to 'un-short' (open circuit) it. Either by untwisting the wires you'd twisted, cutting the cable, or simply unplugging it. You wouldn't need to buy a new sensor and tie it out of the way.

What you say is certainly at least partly possible but I did try both & had to replace the sensor wire to get it clear, so tied it out of the way thinking it could be that it was a "once only" device.

Either way, it was in fault, I tried it open & then short circuited, it remained in fault.

Edited by E-bmw on Thursday 26th June 15:22

[IdiotRace]

I'll test to see what the car does if we just pull the sensor off the pad to see if it throws an error. If not I found these bypass plugs which will most likely act as a short, the connector on them look identical to the brake wear sensor as I assume they are shared with a few VAG cars.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/286052497424

Tbh I'm not really big into german stuff so it's kinda new to me but my friend isn't masively knowledgable about cars in general so I'm trying to do the research for him. I tried to convince him to get something obvious like a Civic TypeR/Clio Cup/MX5 etc for trackdays but he didn't like the idea of any of those and then suddenly he tells me he's bought a TTRS.

He's still on regular tyres I think either PS4 or PS4S I can't remember and I could see the thing was understeering like a pig. But he may change his mind when he realizes the costs of tracking something that originally cost like 60 grand is still not cheap.

Other thing is that the front discs for the TTRS are eye wateringly expensive, being some sort of two piece 370mm job. I'm kind of hoping he decides it's too expensive to run and decides to get something a bit cheaper.

[E-bmw]

Just sayin'.

I have seen several TTs parked in the scenery at track days in the past.

The worst one "lost it" in the first right/left at the start of the "mountain" section at Cadwell & closed the track for a few hours while it was disentangled from the armco & ended up on the back of a low-loader headed for the local scrappy.

The state of the car told me that the driver was lucky!