Excited for a new trackday year!

[brillomaster]

Got my first trackday booked for 4 weeks time - Bedford Autodrome on 17th February. done loads of trackdays in the past, but this will be the first in my new car - Porsche boxster S, and first trackday for nearly a year!

Just wanted to say, i'm well excited. even having done loads and loads in the past, i'm really looking forward to getting on track again, stringing together some decent laps and enjoying driving a (hopefully) decent car quickly.

Hoping to do a fair few more days this year as funds and holidays allow - would love to do thruxton for the first time this year, and doing some old favourites at donington and snetterton. maybe even oulton and cadwell park which i haven't done for 3 years now.

Anyone else excited for the new season of trackdays, or even already braved the cold for a winters trackday? anyone with any plans or targets for new tracks or new experiences this year, or has been preparing a new car over winter to track in the spring?

Here's to a happy 2024, see you on track!

[MarkoFoST]

Similarly excited, I have got my first one of the year at Brands on 2nd Feb. A chance to see if the brake upgrade fitted over the winter on my focus sorts one of its main weaknesses.

Will be intrigued to hear how you get on with the boxster as a track car as I have a bit of an itch for one myself once my current car no longer needs to do daily and fun duties…

[brillomaster]

Had a 986 a while back which was decent... as standard, could have done with a wider front tyre though, bit understeery. The S has good strong brakes though, and nice chassis.

Now in a 987S, which does have a wider front tyre... Will see if it's less understeery than the 986 was.

[Wh00sher]

brillomaster said:

Anyone else excited for the new season of trackdays, or even already braved the cold for a winters trackday? anyone with any plans or targets for new tracks or new experiences this year, or has been preparing a new car over winter to track in the spring?

First trackday of the year is end of Feb for me.

Early May I'll finally be changing the Golf after having it for 18 years.

New car will be an R8 V10 Manual. I'll develop it as a clubsport spec rather than out and out track car like the Golf. I want to be able to use it on the road rather than just on circuit.

Like you I'm very excited about starting a new project. I have a good roadmap of how I'll build it and in what order. That's part of the fun for me, building and testing between each phase of the build and understanding each of the modifications.

[Kswap]

Pre booked a few trackdays at Anglesey with Opentrack and and got £1200 credit for £1000 with MSV, not booked anything with them yet.
Bought myself an Integra DC2 and gone to town on it. Latest was deciding the Tein coilovers won’t cut it and ordered a set of Nitrons.

[1781cc]

Wh00sher said:

Early May I'll finally be changing the Golf after having it for 18 years.

End of an Era

[SpudLink]

Yeah, I'm excited for 2024.

Yesterday I booked Snetterton on 26th March. I normally don't start until late April, but there are a few other Zenos owner's there, so rude not to join them.

All I want for this year is descent weather. My car isn't a nice place to be when it's cold and wet.

[brillomaster]

you can never tell in this country! hope for sun, but plan for rain!

fortunately i find if i go fast enough, the rain goes straight over the top of the car even with the roof down

[braddo]

brillomaster said:

...

Now in a 987S, which does have a wider front tyre... Will see if it's less understeery than the 986 was.

Part of the 2024 fun will be learning with a new car.

Trail braking all the way into the corner apex is critical for a mid/rear engined car. I'm not sure how much trail braking is used for front-engined cars to be honest. I did it in my Caterham but for something with a straight six up front, trail braking might just induce understeer.

If you brake in a straight line, come off brakes and turn in on a neutral or positive throttle (Slow-in fast-out basically), you'll get unavoidable understeer in a Boxster. Trail braking is critical for keeping some weight on the front tyres. You'll have to experiment with smoothly easing off the brakes as you begin to turn (e.g. to 50%), and then continue to ease off brakes gradually all the way to the apex. Then car gets rotated and you can get on the throttle much earlier and harder than a FE car.

[SpudLink]

braddo said:

brillomaster said:

...

Now in a 987S, which does have a wider front tyre... Will see if it's less understeery than the 986 was.

Part of the 2024 fun will be learning with a new car.

Trail braking all the way into the corner apex is critical for a mid/rear engined car. I'm not sure how much trail braking is used for front-engined cars to be honest. I did it in my Caterham but for something with a straight six up front, trail braking might just induce understeer.

If you brake in a straight line, come off brakes and turn in on a neutral or positive throttle (Slow-in fast-out basically), you'll get unavoidable understeer in a Boxster. Trail braking is critical for keeping some weight on the front tyres. You'll have to experiment with smoothly easing off the brakes as you begin to turn (e.g. to 50%), and then continue to ease off brakes gradually all the way to the apex. Then car gets rotated and you can get on the throttle much earlier and harder than a FE car.

Agreed. I have 2 cars, one mid-engined, the other with a straight six up front. Trail breaking definitely helps when the weight is behind me, but it's the wrong thing to do when the weight is at the front.

[brillomaster]

im still learning the ways of mid engined, part of the reason why i got a boxster was if i ever get something really exotic in the future, chances are it'll be mid engined also. and most of my previous experience is also with straight six, front engined rear wheel drive cars!

bedford should be a good place to experiment with trail braking - getting it into and out of the hairpins cleanly may be a challenge. last time i was on track was anglesey and it was pushing on at the front quite a lot - i put it down to considerably narrower front tyres than i was used to, and a lack of front camber - but weight distribution may have also been a factor.

Still, keen to learn!

[arkitan]

SpudLink said:

braddo said:

brillomaster said:

...

Now in a 987S, which does have a wider front tyre... Will see if it's less understeery than the 986 was.

Part of the 2024 fun will be learning with a new car.

Trail braking all the way into the corner apex is critical for a mid/rear engined car. I'm not sure how much trail braking is used for front-engined cars to be honest. I did it in my Caterham but for something with a straight six up front, trail braking might just induce understeer.

If you brake in a straight line, come off brakes and turn in on a neutral or positive throttle (Slow-in fast-out basically), you'll get unavoidable understeer in a Boxster. Trail braking is critical for keeping some weight on the front tyres. You'll have to experiment with smoothly easing off the brakes as you begin to turn (e.g. to 50%), and then continue to ease off brakes gradually all the way to the apex. Then car gets rotated and you can get on the throttle much earlier and harder than a FE car.

Agreed. I have 2 cars, one mid-engined, the other with a straight six up front. Trail breaking definitely helps when the weight is behind me, but it's the wrong thing to do when the weight is at the front.

I don't get this. Surely the point of trail braking is to keep weight transferred to the front ensuring front end grip? Why does the fact that there's a heavy engine up front alter this? I would have thought you would get more understeer if you don't trail brakemen with a front engined car?

[CABC]

arkitan said:

I don't get this. Surely the point of trail braking is to keep weight transferred to the front ensuring front end grip? Why does the fact that there's a heavy engine up front alter this? I would have thought you would get more understeer if you don't trail brakemen with a front engined car?

then you have too much weight and overwhelm the front tyres.
takes some experimenting. you can still trail, but not as aggressively as you would with a car that is light at the front.

[arkitan]

CABC said:

arkitan said:

I don't get this. Surely the point of trail braking is to keep weight transferred to the front ensuring front end grip? Why does the fact that there's a heavy engine up front alter this? I would have thought you would get more understeer if you don't trail brakemen with a front engined car?

then you have too much weight and overwhelm the front tyres.
takes some experimenting. you can still trail, but not as aggressively as you would with a car that is light at the front.

Thanks that makes some sense.

I still don't see why trail braking per se should be most affected by this issue as I would have thought the time when you were most likely to overwhelm the front tyres in a from heavy car was at the point of initial braking where your speed is highest (again assuming a non down force car.) and your braking pressure is greatest. I would have thought that as the car slows and you bleed of the brakes, the chance of overwhelming the tyres would get progressively less?

[CABC]

arkitan said:

Thanks that makes some sense.

I still don't see why trail braking per se should be most affected by this issue as I would have thought the time when you were most likely to overwhelm the front tyres in a from heavy car was at the point of initial braking where your speed is highest (again assuming a non down force car.) and your braking pressure is greatest. I would have thought that as the car slows and you bleed of the brakes, the chance of overwhelming the tyres would get progressively less?

trying to be fast, then all this happens in last few meters. you are trying to still have near 100% braking just before turn in. pushing tyres to the max without slipping too much. bleed off too much and you're going slower than is possible.
different to fast road driving.

[RSbandit]

Looking like May at Bedford will be my first day out followed by Ringmeisters at the Nurburgring towards the end of July (Will try to take in the F1 at Spa too as its same weekend). Usually do one day at Spa in the Autumn but might try a double this yr as it's a superb track.

[SpudLink]

arkitan said:

Thanks that makes some sense.

I still don't see why trail braking per se should be most affected by this issue as I would have thought the time when you were most likely to overwhelm the front tyres in a from heavy car was at the point of initial braking where your speed is highest (again assuming a non down force car.) and your braking pressure is greatest. I would have thought that as the car slows and you bleed of the brakes, the chance of overwhelming the tyres would get progressively less?

With the engine behind you, trailing the brakes up to the apex helps turn the nose in because it moves weight forward which pushes the tyres into the tarmac. With a big engine over the front tyres you try and come off the brakes as you turn in (not before), and the weight of the car will be enough to keep the tyres pushed into the tarmac. If you keep the brakes on you could be asking too much of the tyre.

This it’s not based on any expertise, but a combination of what I’ve been taught and my experience of my own cars. It’s entirely possible other drivers may have different views and experiences .

[Wh00sher]

I trail brake in the Golf. Some corners benefit a lot, others it's negligible.

[E-bmw]

arkitan said:

CABC said:

arkitan said:

I don't get this. Surely the point of trail braking is to keep weight transferred to the front ensuring front end grip? Why does the fact that there's a heavy engine up front alter this? I would have thought you would get more understeer if you don't trail brakemen with a front engined car?

then you have too much weight and overwhelm the front tyres.
takes some experimenting. you can still trail, but not as aggressively as you would with a car that is light at the front.

Thanks that makes some sense.

I still don't see why trail braking per se should be most affected by this issue as I would have thought the time when you were most likely to overwhelm the front tyres in a from heavy car was at the point of initial braking where your speed is highest (again assuming a non down force car.) and your braking pressure is greatest. I would have thought that as the car slows and you bleed of the brakes, the chance of overwhelming the tyres would get progressively less?

What it can also do it to lessen the effect of spinning away grip on the unladen front wheel in a FWD car without an LSD.

[arkitan]

I think we are basically agreeing.

Most of my experience on track has been in mid engined cars and trail braking certainly helps. In front engined cars, that do tend to understeer anyway it helps but with the limitations described.

BTW, maintaining near 100% braking pressure up till the corner is most definitely not the way to trail brake. If you look at telemetry from experienced drivers, the brake pressure trace usually shows a brief peak (brief but longer than a stab) followed by a rapid bleed to a much lower level often 20-30%, freeing up available grip to be used as the front wheels turn into the corner, and then bleeding off totally at the apex and before applying throttle (unless you come from the A Senna school of driving that is...)

Something like the Trophi ai app that Driver 61 have just released on SIMs is fascinating as you can see how individual corners have different shapes of ideal braking pressure curves, and memorising the shapes of these curves as as important as learning the braking points and the driving line. There are curves for steering input and throttle but these are usually far easier to predict yourself. You can get totally absorbed by the technical analysis of what makes a good lap before very long! An opposite approach is just to practice and then analyse your laps. Usually you will find your telemetry has changed to mirror what the ai recommends which is reassuring. It's also a lot cheaper than going into the gravel trap in real life!

(ETA - telemetry coaches are usually not the fastest, there will always be individual drivers who can get more out of a lap, but they are a very good way to get in the ball park of a competent lap time that you can then build on. They also can't account for tyre temperature and wear and changing track conditions of course.)

That's also a good tip for a trackday newbie, be very conscious of the effect of cold tyres and the need to go gently for a few laps as they warm up, you may never have really experienced it in normal road driving but on track its a real thing.

Edited by arkitan on Friday 26th January 11:24