Advice for second trackday

[adam.cantab]

I did my first trackday at Bedford just over a month ago and met a couple of Pistonheads at the circuit too. I had a great time and progressed from very slow and terrified, to slow, improving and throughly enjoying it.

I've since swapped out a set of brake pads, and am looking for some pointers/suggestions for my second track day.

1) Venue - Ideally looking for somewhere forgiving with plenty of run off within about 2hrs of London. Bedford again? Snetterton? or other suggestions?

2) Conditions - I'm running Michelin PS4S tyres and noticed a significant drop off in grip on the roads in the recent cold weather. Would this be an issue on track, or will the tyres grip fine after they get warm with an outlap? Would it be wise to check my enthusiasm and wait for Spring or am i being over cautious?

3) Confidence - Any suggestions on how to gain confidence in my own abilities to catch the car should I break traction? I think my fear of overreacting or not reacting quickly enough or reacting in the wrong way is keeping me from exploring the limits. Would a session on a skid pan be a good idea? If so any suggestions?

Thanks for any pointers / suggestions and hope to see some of you on track.

[e46m3c]

Awesome. Welcome to having no money anymore.

All the uk tracks are fantastic. It’s really great to experience other tracks and the challenges they bring. Just take it steady and get tuition early on. Not for how to drive the car but how to drive the track. Brands hatch is great or you have castle Combe and thruxton (super fast). Donington as awesome and silverstone I find a bit dull/big in a road car. Mallory usually on the cheaper side. Some have less run off than others and corners which are more challenging but all are manageable for a beginner.

A skid pan day is 100% worth the money or some proper driver tuition like Gary marsh etc.

I personally learned more on 2 drift what ya brung days at Santa pod if you’re talking rwd. This is the fastest safest most cost effective way to learn oversteer.

Wouldn’t worry too much about tyres just have fun with what you have and what you have are great tyres. Cold wet slippery trackdays are fantastic so have at it and don’t wait. They are cheaper and more available too generally.

Have fun!

Edited by e46m3c on Wednesday 29th November 22:41

Edited by e46m3c on Thursday 30th November 09:14

[1781cc]

You learn more car control on bad weather days then you do on hot dry days IMO.

I would look at flat circuits like Snetterton and Blyton as next steps but don't be intimidated by circuits, progress slowly and with no ego and you'll be fine. You can also get free tuition with Opentrack which may help you get familiar with new circuits as you go.

[CKY]

adam.cantab said:

3) Confidence - Any suggestions on how to gain confidence in my own abilities to catch the car should I break traction? I think my fear of overreacting or not reacting quickly enough or reacting in the wrong way is keeping me from exploring the limits. Would a session on a skid pan be a good idea? If so any suggestions?

For people not confident or lacking in their own abilities, there have been threads in this sub-forum previously about driver training days, either on-track or on skidpads. It could be worth having a trawl back through the previous threads to see what people recommended and whether they rated the experiences.

Best of luck and enjoy

[brillomaster]

personally - id do bedford again. i think its pretty much the perfect venue for a winter trackday - a massive long circuit with some decent corners, its not a proper race track so no armco to hit, very little gravel to get stuck in and no racecars doing testing. and your second visit will feel very different to your first - you'll know the track, know the format of the day and can really focus on improving your technique. plus, you can very easily get sideways at bedford if its damp - out of turn one you can get sideways by just looking at the throttle funny, at about 20mph... though a word of advice, you'll get black flagged pretty sharpish, so expect a talking too from the marshalls.

snetterton is decent to if you wanted to try a proper circuit, decent amounts of run off, not much gravel, and fairly straightforward.

blyton is good for a beginner as well, but its flipping miles away from london.

i'd do bedford a few more times, then snetterton a few times, then once you're happy with your abilities and your car, upgrade to the big boy tracks at donington, oulton park, cadwell park, anglesey, spa...

[WombleCate]

I’d second doing Bedford again. In my experience, I find the first day is finding your way around the circuit, the second day is really driving it, by the third day I’m getting into VBox timings.

There are many amazing tracks, I find something special at Silverstone, Brands, Goodwood & Donington (maybe it’s the history).

I find Silverstone and Thruxton are both less scary, lots of space.

Agree with the comments on skid pans and tuition (heard good things about Thruxton skid pan).

I’d take the free tuition offered by TDOs, then, once you know T your car, have a full days coaching.

You’ll be taking your ARDS before you know it, then, it’s a quick jump to waking up in a bed sit above a Fish & Chip shop with a racecar in a lockup.

Enjoy the journey

[adam.cantab]

Thanks for the pointers all. I'm probably going to do Bedford again, either on the 9th (with MSVT) or the 16th (with Javelin) of December if I can get things lined up. I'm certainly going to look into skid pans too as somewhere safe to explore the limits of grip.

I'd be keen to try Brands Hatch at some point too but to my novice eyes the elevation changes at Paddocks hill has panic oversteer spin written all over it. Perhaps one for later.

[_Neal_]

adam.cantab said:

Thanks for the pointers all. I'm probably going to do Bedford again, either on the 9th (with MSVT) or the 16th (with Javelin) of December if I can get things lined up. I'm certainly going to look into skid pans too as somewhere safe to explore the limits of grip.

I'd be keen to try Brands Hatch at some point too but to my novice eyes the elevation changes at Paddocks hill has panic oversteer spin written all over it. Perhaps one for later.

Doing Bedford again sounds like a solid plan, but for what it's worth I think Brands is actually a decently forgiving track, I reckon you'll be fine, just about being sensible really.

Paddock Hill is intimidating but (to my mind, at my moderate trackday speeds) it's mostly psychological - it's a bit nerve-wracking, but is also an iconic and awesome corner (obviously) and feels amazing when you get it even vaguely right. Last weekend at least Paddock had plenty of grip even in cold, drizzly conditions. Get a bit of coaching on the day, build up the speed and you'll be fine.

Brands Indy is also a short layout (less than a third the length of Bedford GT) so easy to learn where it goes next, and you can spend the day trying different things and refining your lines etc. The elevation changes at Brands (and elsewhere) really add another dimension too. Enjoy!

Edited by _Neal_ on Thursday 30th November 22:59

[TTmonkey]

adam.cantab said:

Thanks for the pointers all. I'm probably going to do Bedford again, either on the 9th (with MSVT) or the 16th (with Javelin) of December if I can get things lined up. I'm certainly going to look into skid pans too as somewhere safe to explore the limits of grip.

I'd be keen to try Brands Hatch at some point too but to my novice eyes the elevation changes at Paddocks hill has panic oversteer spin written all over it. Perhaps one for later.

The problem with winter track days, if ut freezes hard overnight you might it run until the afternoon.

We waited hours for Silverstone and eventually it was cancelled about 2pm as still frozen. It was a long way to go to sit and wait and then be sent home.

[CG2020UK]

I’d say tuition is the best bang for your buck in bringing you on as a driver without a doubt.

Also being a passenger with a good driver is a great learning experience. I’d imagine there would be some on the forum here who would take you out a session.

[Steve H]

Yep, absolutely keep doing Bedford. Keep going to a track with ill defined lines and a false sense of safety margins. There’s nothing better than that when it comes to preparing for driving on proper tracks .

But seriously folks, not Bedford (see my previous rants for details ). I would say Snetterton is a good option, plenty to go at there.

And definitely get as much tuition as you can.


The issue of car control is an interesting one but the biggest factor in whether you catch a slide is not how awesome your skills are in reacting to it but how severe a slide you accidentally put the car into - that’s where the tuition comes in. If you are making the correct inputs and understand what is happening then when the car starts to move you will be expecting it and it will happen in a way that you can deal with.

You will learn stuff on a good car control day, and they are great fun, but being able to get yourself out of trouble comes second to choosing how much trouble to get into in the first place .

PS4S are probably about as good as it gets for an all-weathers tyre so I would stick with them for now and just adapt to what grip is available.

[LennyM1984]

Steve H said:

The issue of car control is an interesting one but the biggest factor in whether you catch a slide is not how awesome your skills are in reacting to it but how severe a slide you accidentally put the car into - that’s where the tuition comes in. If you are making the correct inputs and understand what is happening then when the car starts to move you will be expecting it and it will happen in a way that you can deal with.

Brilliantly put! It took me a while to understand that and to understand the difference between a slide simply caused by bad inputs and the slide you get when you are actually going fast (and smooth).

Strangely, I found that racing on slicks was what really helped to hammer home that difference for me. If my inputs were crap then I'd get exaggerated snappy slides where I'd lose time whereas when I started to get faster, the slides felt more natural and not like something that needed to be consciously "reacted to."

[Dynion Araf Uchaf]

the best thing to develop car control ( confidence) in a car is to use a car you don't give a st about.

Suspect OP is in an expensive or valuable to him car. Buy an MX5 or a Clio and then send it.

[adam.cantab]

Dynion Araf Uchaf said:

the best thing to develop car control ( confidence) in a car is to use a car you don't give a st about.

Suspect OP is in an expensive or valuable to him car. Buy an MX5 or a Clio and then send it.

Your suspicions are spot on and if I didn't live in London that's exactly what I would do. Unfortunately I only have one parking spot.

[Shaoxter]

adam.cantab said:

Thanks for the pointers all. I'm probably going to do Bedford again, either on the 9th (with MSVT) or the 16th (with Javelin) of December if I can get things lined up. I'm certainly going to look into skid pans too as somewhere safe to explore the limits of grip.

I'd be keen to try Brands Hatch at some point too but to my novice eyes the elevation changes at Paddocks hill has panic oversteer spin written all over it. Perhaps one for later.

Doing Bedford again is a good shout, once you get a bit more confident with your car you can start doing some more interesting tracks with elevation changes. PS4S will be OK but just make sure you take it easy for a couple of laps while they get up to temperature.

Brands doesn't have a lot of run off in places, and it will be quite easy to lose the car coming out of Druids or down the hill in this weather (speaking from personal experience )

[E-bmw]

Dynion Araf Uchaf said:

the best thing to develop car control ( confidence) in a car is to use a car you don't give a st about.

100% totally disagree with that statement.

Turn up with a £500 car, bin it on the first over enthusiastic bend, what have you learnt?

Nothing.

[adam.cantab]

Thanks for the pointers all. I've booked on Bedford again on 9th December and added two sessions of Tuition. Incidentally MSVT seem to be offering a voucher promotion atm, a £600 voucher for £500. I've gone for that so committed to at least two more track days in the next 12 months, perhaps try some other tracks out in the new year.

[Dynion Araf Uchaf]

E-bmw said:

100% totally disagree with that statement.

Turn up with a £500 car, bin it on the first over enthusiastic bend, what have you learnt?

Nothing.

glad you disagree, but I disagree with you.

Cheap car allows you to explore the limits from a point of view of 'can i make it do this?' rather than with an expensive car ' i don't want to make it do this/ this is a bit fast for me'

There's nothing about running a cheap car that'll make you throw it off on the first corner, and if there was you'd know not to throw it off at the first corner because 'spenny'.

HTH.

[LennyM1984]

Regardless of how much the car is worth, it is probably sensible to try to creep up on the limit rather than to try and provoke it. If you just focus on driving smoothly (smooth brakes, smooth transition to throttle, smooth throttle application at the right time, smooth steering etc) you can gradually carry a little more speed without (hopefully) getting any major surprises. To SteveH's earlier point, when the car does eventually begin to slide, you'll be expecting it.

[adam.cantab]

LennyM1984 said:

Regardless of how much the car is worth, it is probably sensible to try to creep up on the limit rather than to try and provoke it. If you just focus on driving smoothly (smooth brakes, smooth transition to throttle, smooth throttle application at the right time, smooth steering etc) you can gradually carry a little more speed without (hopefully) getting any major surprises. To SteveH's earlier point, when the car does eventually begin to slide, you'll be expecting it.

That's very much the plan, slowly creep up to the limit. Last time all was good until there was the lightest patch of rain. I thought I was being careful and super gentle but still managed to spin, albeit slowly and undramatically. I think this is what's causing some of my trepidation.

In general I think last time I was driving quite smoothly and within limits apart form the one instance. There were two parts I struggled with. Keeping smooth when coming off the brakes, and unwinding the steering early enough to use the full track width. Improving with these plus whatever the instructor adds will be my focus on the 9th.