Lightweight wheels
Discussion
I’ve been pondering a set of lightweight wheels for the trackday MX5 but I’m not sure if I will feel the benefits. I already have a cheap set of 2nd wheels, but they are heavy compared to the stock wheels and much heavier than the ones I’m looked at. The set I’m considering are about 2.5kg lighter.
What do lighter wheels feel like, is there a tangible difference for somebody who’s not into ultimate lap times but more about the enjoyment of the day?
What do lighter wheels feel like, is there a tangible difference for somebody who’s not into ultimate lap times but more about the enjoyment of the day?
What wheels have you got and what model MX-5 is it you're putting them on ?
2.5kgs is quite a bit of extra weight per corner.
The car will feel more agile with a lighter wheel and steering inputs/feedback/reaction will be improved particularly in the tighter stuff.
If you're not chasing lap times, it'll be neither here nor there because you'll simply adapt your driving to what's on the car.
OEM wheels on the NC are very light to start with. You'll have to open your pocket quite wide to do a little better only.
2.5kgs is quite a bit of extra weight per corner.
The car will feel more agile with a lighter wheel and steering inputs/feedback/reaction will be improved particularly in the tighter stuff.
If you're not chasing lap times, it'll be neither here nor there because you'll simply adapt your driving to what's on the car.
OEM wheels on the NC are very light to start with. You'll have to open your pocket quite wide to do a little better only.
Edited by reggie747 on Thursday 23 March 14:40
It's an NC1 that I'm using. I don't use the stock wheels for track, I bought a cheap 2nd set of wheels to allow me to have two sets of tyres. These are the wheels (I'm running 16 inch)
MSW 77 - 9.60kg
https://www.felgenoutlet.com/en/alloy-wheels-tyres...
The ones I'm looking at (which are used by a Mini race team in Germany) are these:
Autec Wizard - 7.2kg
https://www.felgenoutlet.com/en/alloy-wheels-tyres...
So the difference between them is big, but the standard NC wheels sit in between the two in terms of weight. I could put the track tyres on the standard wheels, but, that doesn't allow for new toys, right?
It's an interesting point you make though about adapting driving style based on what you have.
MSW 77 - 9.60kg
https://www.felgenoutlet.com/en/alloy-wheels-tyres...
The ones I'm looking at (which are used by a Mini race team in Germany) are these:
Autec Wizard - 7.2kg
https://www.felgenoutlet.com/en/alloy-wheels-tyres...
So the difference between them is big, but the standard NC wheels sit in between the two in terms of weight. I could put the track tyres on the standard wheels, but, that doesn't allow for new toys, right?
It's an interesting point you make though about adapting driving style based on what you have.
Go and weigh each of the two sets you have now, with tyres on. Whats the difference? If 2kg+ you can do an experiment.
Namely, decide on a shortish driving route near home. Do the route on one set of your wheels, then the same route immediately again on the other set.
Maybe you have to do it more than once to counter any placebo effect.
Namely, decide on a shortish driving route near home. Do the route on one set of your wheels, then the same route immediately again on the other set.
Maybe you have to do it more than once to counter any placebo effect.
Any reason your using 16 and 17s?
The OE wheels on the 2.0 Sport are, as said above, actually pretty light for the size at 7.something kilos.
I ran these TrakLite Gears in 17x7.5. I weighed them at 6.9kg before fitment.
When compared to other sets of cheap, heavy wheels, the difference in feel was outstanding - it was one of the very best things I did to the car.
XSP_1427 by Javelin Trackdays, on Flickr
The OE wheels on the 2.0 Sport are, as said above, actually pretty light for the size at 7.something kilos.
I ran these TrakLite Gears in 17x7.5. I weighed them at 6.9kg before fitment.
When compared to other sets of cheap, heavy wheels, the difference in feel was outstanding - it was one of the very best things I did to the car.
XSP_1427 by Javelin Trackdays, on FlickrIn my Clio my track wheels are about 2kg heavier than the road wheels (But I do a lot more road miles) and the difference is really perceptible. There is less gyroscopic force and inertia with the light wheels so it does everything a little bit better. Suspension reacts a bit better, turn in, braking etc. Unsprung mass is always the best place to lose weight.
ThisInJapanese said:
The issue with that is that the tyres are very different and have different profiles. One set is Michelin PS4s and the Nankang N2SRs, instantly creating a different feeling in the car.
Ps4 are still a high quality grippy tyre. You are not feeling for ultimate grip - it’s steering feel (especially left right transitions) and coping with bumps etc that you are on the lookout for.Basically if the car doesnt feel appreciably better to drive on your road wheels i’d be doubtful of you noticing the benefits of the new track wheels. Im not saying to not go shopping
I've a bit of experience with this myself, having had quite a few different wheels on my Mk1.
I can tell you that wheel weight makes a massive difference to the feel and performance of the car.
I originally had a set of Rota's on it, 15x8 with a stretched Nankang 185/45 tyre. These were certainly not fitted with performance in mind and the combination of a quite heavy wheel + awful tyres made for interesting handling dynamics, although not as terrible as you might imagine.
I became interested in lightweight wheels and did a bit of research. You can't get much better/lighter than a Volk TE37, which I was able to find a nice second hand set of. 15x6.5 with 195/50 Yokohama Parada Spec 2s. The wheel weighs an incredible 4.3kg! The original 14x5.5 daisies on the car weigh 5.5kg.
With the tyres fitted the weights were as follows:
Daisies with Goodyear tyres 12kg
TE37s with Yokohamas 12.3kg
Rota's with Nankangs 14.6kg
So with the TE37s on, you're getting more tyre for negligible weight gain - win win.
It's night and day difference with light wheels, especially in a low powered light car.
I've since sold the TE37s unfortunately and I now have a set of Mk2 MX5 wheels fitted. I don't actually know the weights off hand, I guess I stopped caring so much and don't do much track stuff now, but they're fairly light.
TE37s on track at Castle Combe:
I can tell you that wheel weight makes a massive difference to the feel and performance of the car.
I originally had a set of Rota's on it, 15x8 with a stretched Nankang 185/45 tyre. These were certainly not fitted with performance in mind and the combination of a quite heavy wheel + awful tyres made for interesting handling dynamics, although not as terrible as you might imagine.
I became interested in lightweight wheels and did a bit of research. You can't get much better/lighter than a Volk TE37, which I was able to find a nice second hand set of. 15x6.5 with 195/50 Yokohama Parada Spec 2s. The wheel weighs an incredible 4.3kg! The original 14x5.5 daisies on the car weigh 5.5kg.
With the tyres fitted the weights were as follows:
Daisies with Goodyear tyres 12kg
TE37s with Yokohamas 12.3kg
Rota's with Nankangs 14.6kg
So with the TE37s on, you're getting more tyre for negligible weight gain - win win.
It's night and day difference with light wheels, especially in a low powered light car.
I've since sold the TE37s unfortunately and I now have a set of Mk2 MX5 wheels fitted. I don't actually know the weights off hand, I guess I stopped caring so much and don't do much track stuff now, but they're fairly light.
TE37s on track at Castle Combe:
I bought my track 5 ready built for track. I knew the guys before had been style over substance in building it. Swapped the aftermarket wheels for Tracklite flow formed wheels and OMG, within 50m I could tell what a great mod it was.
Unsprung mass is evil.
Of the various mods I did to my 5, the power ones were least impressive. Probably because of my expectations.
Unsprung mass is evil.
Of the various mods I did to my 5, the power ones were least impressive. Probably because of my expectations.
Give me a little more weight and a stiffer wheel please.
I’ve done blind assessments on tracks. People choose a stiffer wheel over a lighter wheel, when they don’t know which one they are driving.
The wheels tested were within normal ranges of both stiffness (camber/toe) and weight.
I know this goes contrary to accepted understanding, but there you go.
I’ve done blind assessments on tracks. People choose a stiffer wheel over a lighter wheel, when they don’t know which one they are driving.
The wheels tested were within normal ranges of both stiffness (camber/toe) and weight.
I know this goes contrary to accepted understanding, but there you go.
Kawasicki said:
Give me a little more weight and a stiffer wheel please.
I’ve done blind assessments on tracks. People choose a stiffer wheel over a lighter wheel, when they don’t know which one they are driving.
The wheels tested were within normal ranges of both stiffness (camber/toe) and weight.
I know this goes contrary to accepted understanding, but there you go.
I'm a little lost.I’ve done blind assessments on tracks. People choose a stiffer wheel over a lighter wheel, when they don’t know which one they are driving.
The wheels tested were within normal ranges of both stiffness (camber/toe) and weight.
I know this goes contrary to accepted understanding, but there you go.
your stiffness relates to aggressive camber/toe, not metal stiffness?
What happened when you had the same geo settings and gave drivers lighter or heavier wheels?
how do you yourself feel about unsprung weight, given the choice?
you're right it goes against accepted 'wisdom'. my own wheel swap was done without a geo adjustment, but did involve new tyres (doh!). That said, my first 50m didn't in anyway test the tread pattern.
Please Kawasicki, I need more info!
CABC said:
Kawasicki said:
Give me a little more weight and a stiffer wheel please.
I’ve done blind assessments on tracks. People choose a stiffer wheel over a lighter wheel, when they don’t know which one they are driving.
The wheels tested were within normal ranges of both stiffness (camber/toe) and weight.
I know this goes contrary to accepted understanding, but there you go.
I'm a little lost.I’ve done blind assessments on tracks. People choose a stiffer wheel over a lighter wheel, when they don’t know which one they are driving.
The wheels tested were within normal ranges of both stiffness (camber/toe) and weight.
I know this goes contrary to accepted understanding, but there you go.
your stiffness relates to aggressive camber/toe, not metal stiffness?
What happened when you had the same geo settings and gave drivers lighter or heavier wheels?
how do you yourself feel about unsprung weight, given the choice?
you're right it goes against accepted 'wisdom'. my own wheel swap was done without a geo adjustment, but did involve new tyres (doh!). That said, my first 50m didn't in anyway test the tread pattern.
Please Kawasicki, I need more info!
The problem with putting the performance aspect of a wheel down to one characteristic, weight, is that you end up with manufacturers optimising for that… rather than for a balance of characteristics.
Example. A special high performance edition of a road car was spec‘d with freakishly expensive wheels from a renowned Japanese wheel maker. They were light and looked great. The problem was the car lost a LOT of handling precision and predictability when they were fitted. They were nearly 50% lighter than the original cheap, boat anchor alloys! I measured the camber stiffness of the wheels, how much they deflected under cornering load. They were less than half as stiff.
snotrag said:
Any reason your using 16 and 17s?
The OE wheels on the 2.0 Sport are, as said above, actually pretty light for the size at 7.something kilos.
I ran these TrakLite Gears in 17x7.5. I weighed them at 6.9kg before fitment.
When compared to other sets of cheap, heavy wheels, the difference in feel was outstanding - it was one of the very best things I did to the car.
XSP_1427 by Javelin Trackdays, on Flickr
Car/wheels look great. The OE wheels on the 2.0 Sport are, as said above, actually pretty light for the size at 7.something kilos.
I ran these TrakLite Gears in 17x7.5. I weighed them at 6.9kg before fitment.
When compared to other sets of cheap, heavy wheels, the difference in feel was outstanding - it was one of the very best things I did to the car.
XSP_1427 by Javelin Trackdays, on Flickr
Theres a magazine test that use to pop up in these discussions, regarding wheel stiffness Vs weigh, its in here:
http://racings2000.blogspot.com/2014/?m=1
http://racings2000.blogspot.com/2014/?m=1
CedricN said:
Theres a magazine test that use to pop up in these discussions, regarding wheel stiffness Vs weigh, its in here:
http://racings2000.blogspot.com/2014/?m=1
http://racings2000.blogspot.com/2014/?m=1
In my experience, wheel weight makes a massive difference. It has virtually nothing to do with the 'unsprung weight' cliche that people parrot, through.
Try turning a cycle wheel spinning on a spindle when held using your arms as forks. Surprisingly difficult isnt it? Heavier equals far, far harder.
Remember too that tyre weights can vary far more than wheels weights - there's little point making huge inroads with super-light wheels if you immediately throw it away on heavy tyres.
Try turning a cycle wheel spinning on a spindle when held using your arms as forks. Surprisingly difficult isnt it? Heavier equals far, far harder.
Remember too that tyre weights can vary far more than wheels weights - there's little point making huge inroads with super-light wheels if you immediately throw it away on heavy tyres.
reggie747 said:
OEM wheels on the NC are very light to start with. You'll have to open your pocket quite wide to do a little better only.
I've just looked this up, if the internet is to be believed they are very light and could be the most cost-effective solution! £200 or so on eBay for a set of 4! snotrag said:
Any reason your using 16 and 17s?
Cheaper tyres, nothing else. Just trying to keep the costs down where I can (yes, I know, not buying things would help, but...)braddo said:
Ps4 are still a high quality grippy tyre. You are not feeling for ultimate grip - it’s steering feel (especially left right transitions) and coping with bumps etc that you are on the lookout for.
Basically if the car doesnt feel appreciably better to drive on your road wheels i’d be doubtful of you noticing the benefits of the new track wheels. Im not saying to not go shopping
It does feel better, but I need to pay a little more attention to where it feels better. I've got a new daily (Alpine A110) and it's really hard to describe how it feels, other than it feels 'light' and I've not paid that much attention between the two sets of wheels. I'll give it a go next weekend and see what I think. I'm normally grumbling that the track tyres are lower profile and the car hardly gets over the speed bumps on my road! Basically if the car doesnt feel appreciably better to drive on your road wheels i’d be doubtful of you noticing the benefits of the new track wheels. Im not saying to not go shopping
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