Zestino Gredge 07rs Tyres - Garbage or is it me/my car?
Discussion
Hey everyone.
I am here asking for some opinions and advice. Ultimately to address the issues i have been having.
So this story starts back in around April this year. I have a 2017 Golf R and fancied getting back on track.
A day at Goodwood was booked.
I have a second set of wheels for my Golf, some Revo 18's. I needed tyres for these, but being on a bit of a budget looked at the cheaper options.
The Zestino Gredge 07rs popped up and looked good. I did some googling and they seemed to get good reviews.
A set of 4 ordered from Demon Tweeks and were fitted up.
The day of the track day arrived and i had a great time. Good to drive the Golf in anger and i find Goodwood a great track.
Come the end of the day and i removed my Revo's to re-fit my road wheels. I then noticed the outside edge of the passenger tyre was down to the beading in places. I have never seen or experienced this before. Rather worrying. Pics are below. I contacted DT who then contacted the supplier.
The supplier said the following:
The reason I believe this to be true is that Goodwood circuit is a fast track with constant right handers and only 1 left hander. This makes it very hard wearing on the left front. Thruxton is very similar.
I am also going to guess that it is a front wheel drive car which is running standard road alignment (i.e. 0 camber). This causes the load on the tyre to focus on the outer edge as the wheel will lean (positive camber), this setup coupled with long stints of aggressive driving on a track which has very long fast corners makes it very easy to overheat tyres which is what I believe has happened on this occasion.
Whilst his assumptions are correct, it is on standard alignment, on standard suspension, i still find it hard to believe that a tyre would do this and not on the entire circumference of the tyre, just in a handful of localised spots. I would assume the entire edge would be similar if it was due to heavy load and overheating. They stuck to their guns and had no more to say. I managed to get a small discount on a replacement tyre so i could use the remaining 3.
Fast forward to last weekend and i am back at Goodwood for another day of fun. This time the Golf has been treated to a set of 034 Motorsport camber top mounts, giving an extra 1.4 degrees of negative camber. Some eibach lowering springs and a Superpro uprated rear antiroll bar. All finished off with an alignment by NADUK. (2 negative degrees of camber on the front)
So the day at Goodwood went well. Outside edge of passenger tyre was is find condition. No delam, extreme degredation or beading on show. happy days!
The track wheels are removed and road ones put back on. But there is an issue with the inner of the driver side front tyre. Again, pics below. This runs around the entire circumference of the tyre.
As per the first tyre, i dont believe this should have happened. I am waiting to hear back from DT, but suspect the supplier will have a different view on it to me.
Tyre temps were monitored constantly on both track days and adjusted to suit.
Just for a bit of clarification (and by no means is this trying to blow my own trumpet) I have done many many track days over the years. In the UK and a few in Europe. Driven the Nurburgring many times. Did two years racing in the 750MC Clio 182 Cup championship. Have had Renaultsport Clio's & Meganes, JDM Impreza's, JDM Honda Civic Type R plus a few other cars on track over the years. Ranging from bone stock road cars, to fully stripped out track beasts, run on various fast road and track day rubber.... and i have never experienced this sort of thing.
So i am after your opinions....Is it:
faulty tyres
my driving style
my Golf
a combination of all
Something else?
I am happy for my theories of this not being normal/rubbish tyres to be put to bed. And ideally if there is something that can avoid this in future, then please share your thoughts.
Ultimately I wont be buying any more of these Zestion tyres, which i hope will eliminate any future issues.
Cheers in advance to anyone who replies.
I am here asking for some opinions and advice. Ultimately to address the issues i have been having.
So this story starts back in around April this year. I have a 2017 Golf R and fancied getting back on track.
A day at Goodwood was booked.
I have a second set of wheels for my Golf, some Revo 18's. I needed tyres for these, but being on a bit of a budget looked at the cheaper options.
The Zestino Gredge 07rs popped up and looked good. I did some googling and they seemed to get good reviews.
A set of 4 ordered from Demon Tweeks and were fitted up.
The day of the track day arrived and i had a great time. Good to drive the Golf in anger and i find Goodwood a great track.
Come the end of the day and i removed my Revo's to re-fit my road wheels. I then noticed the outside edge of the passenger tyre was down to the beading in places. I have never seen or experienced this before. Rather worrying. Pics are below. I contacted DT who then contacted the supplier.
The supplier said the following:
The reason I believe this to be true is that Goodwood circuit is a fast track with constant right handers and only 1 left hander. This makes it very hard wearing on the left front. Thruxton is very similar.
I am also going to guess that it is a front wheel drive car which is running standard road alignment (i.e. 0 camber). This causes the load on the tyre to focus on the outer edge as the wheel will lean (positive camber), this setup coupled with long stints of aggressive driving on a track which has very long fast corners makes it very easy to overheat tyres which is what I believe has happened on this occasion.
Whilst his assumptions are correct, it is on standard alignment, on standard suspension, i still find it hard to believe that a tyre would do this and not on the entire circumference of the tyre, just in a handful of localised spots. I would assume the entire edge would be similar if it was due to heavy load and overheating. They stuck to their guns and had no more to say. I managed to get a small discount on a replacement tyre so i could use the remaining 3.
Fast forward to last weekend and i am back at Goodwood for another day of fun. This time the Golf has been treated to a set of 034 Motorsport camber top mounts, giving an extra 1.4 degrees of negative camber. Some eibach lowering springs and a Superpro uprated rear antiroll bar. All finished off with an alignment by NADUK. (2 negative degrees of camber on the front)
So the day at Goodwood went well. Outside edge of passenger tyre was is find condition. No delam, extreme degredation or beading on show. happy days!
The track wheels are removed and road ones put back on. But there is an issue with the inner of the driver side front tyre. Again, pics below. This runs around the entire circumference of the tyre.
As per the first tyre, i dont believe this should have happened. I am waiting to hear back from DT, but suspect the supplier will have a different view on it to me.
Tyre temps were monitored constantly on both track days and adjusted to suit.
Just for a bit of clarification (and by no means is this trying to blow my own trumpet) I have done many many track days over the years. In the UK and a few in Europe. Driven the Nurburgring many times. Did two years racing in the 750MC Clio 182 Cup championship. Have had Renaultsport Clio's & Meganes, JDM Impreza's, JDM Honda Civic Type R plus a few other cars on track over the years. Ranging from bone stock road cars, to fully stripped out track beasts, run on various fast road and track day rubber.... and i have never experienced this sort of thing.
So i am after your opinions....Is it:
faulty tyres
my driving style
my Golf
a combination of all
Something else?
I am happy for my theories of this not being normal/rubbish tyres to be put to bed. And ideally if there is something that can avoid this in future, then please share your thoughts.
Ultimately I wont be buying any more of these Zestion tyres, which i hope will eliminate any future issues.
Cheers in advance to anyone who replies.
It would not surprise me if this was purely down to the fact that these tyres are made with very soft rubber. Add to that, reasonable power, most of the power going through the front wheels, your driving ability, and the fact that Goodwood is, as you say, nearly all right-handers, and I think you have your answer.
I run a Skoda, Octavia vRS running, 245 bhp, lots of mods, including limited slip differential and running Toyo R888’s. If driven hard, and I don’t swap the fronts to the rear at every other track day, I can trash a set of tyres in 2–3 Track Days. Surprisingly, the front pair were down to 2 mm with very worn edges after one hard track day.
Generally, in life, you only get what you pay for, and I guess that these tyres were at the lower end of the market, I may be wrong.
I run a Skoda, Octavia vRS running, 245 bhp, lots of mods, including limited slip differential and running Toyo R888’s. If driven hard, and I don’t swap the fronts to the rear at every other track day, I can trash a set of tyres in 2–3 Track Days. Surprisingly, the front pair were down to 2 mm with very worn edges after one hard track day.
Generally, in life, you only get what you pay for, and I guess that these tyres were at the lower end of the market, I may be wrong.
how long is a long stint, exactly?, and what tyre pressures are you running?
do you get a lot of understeer when you're on track? what is your preferred style to get a car through a corner? i dont know, but i presume you've got a proper diff so you arent spinning up an inside wheel or anything like that.
I'm with phazed - i just dont think those tyres are up to the job - my guess is your stint lengths are overheating them and they're then delaminating.
last thought - what front toe settings are you running? inner shoulder wear is often bad toe settings - it can be camber, but -2 doesnt sound that extreme, as long as thats accompanied by zero toe.
also... i'm going to go check my tyres! they were also relatively cheap Accelera 651 sports, hope they arent delaminating anywhere like that as they are dangerous!
do you get a lot of understeer when you're on track? what is your preferred style to get a car through a corner? i dont know, but i presume you've got a proper diff so you arent spinning up an inside wheel or anything like that.
I'm with phazed - i just dont think those tyres are up to the job - my guess is your stint lengths are overheating them and they're then delaminating.
last thought - what front toe settings are you running? inner shoulder wear is often bad toe settings - it can be camber, but -2 doesnt sound that extreme, as long as thats accompanied by zero toe.
also... i'm going to go check my tyres! they were also relatively cheap Accelera 651 sports, hope they arent delaminating anywhere like that as they are dangerous!
I would also add that your car I believe is in between 1500–1600 kg. Compare that to my tyre eating Skoda at only 1200 kg and I think we are beginning to see the true reasons.
Even though I have a limited slip differential, the front wheels still want to spin although far less than pre-LSD. The joys of a front wheel drive car and I would be surprised yours, under hard cornering, your front wheels were not doing the same.
Even though I have a limited slip differential, the front wheels still want to spin although far less than pre-LSD. The joys of a front wheel drive car and I would be surprised yours, under hard cornering, your front wheels were not doing the same.
brillomaster said:
also... i'm going to go check my tyres! they were also relatively cheap Accelera 651 sports, hope they arent delaminating anywhere like that as they are dangerous!
I am interesting to hear how you have get on with those tyres? I seem to be getting through R888’s on the Skoda far quicker than I do on my Boxster S! I presume it is nothing more than aggressive driving and I should really adjust my style for minimal wheel spin out of corners but easier said than done when you’re on it and enjoying yourself!Hi chaps
Many thanks for the replys.
To address a couple of the points.
Caster is set to 0.
Car didnt feel like it understeered all that much (thicker rear roll bar helps eliminate this on the MQB chassis). And being aware of the first track day's outcome i didnt really lean on the tyres quite so hard as i could have.
stints at Goodwood are 15 mins long, so nothing too strenuous.
Standard diff in the R, which i am pretty sure is an open one, rather than a mechanical or electronic limited slip. I drive with all traction control off (if it makes any odds).
When it comes to buying things in life, i usually live by 'buy cheap, buy twice', but foolish me decided to buy cheap (these are £100 a corner for a 225/40/18).
I think the best thing i can do is get the last use out of these, then invest in something much more hardy.
Many thanks for the replys.
To address a couple of the points.
Caster is set to 0.
Car didnt feel like it understeered all that much (thicker rear roll bar helps eliminate this on the MQB chassis). And being aware of the first track day's outcome i didnt really lean on the tyres quite so hard as i could have.
stints at Goodwood are 15 mins long, so nothing too strenuous.
Standard diff in the R, which i am pretty sure is an open one, rather than a mechanical or electronic limited slip. I drive with all traction control off (if it makes any odds).
When it comes to buying things in life, i usually live by 'buy cheap, buy twice', but foolish me decided to buy cheap (these are £100 a corner for a 225/40/18).
I think the best thing i can do is get the last use out of these, then invest in something much more hardy.
phazed said:
I am interesting to hear how you have get on with those tyres? I seem to be getting through R888’s on the Skoda far quicker than I do on my Boxster S! I presume it is nothing more than aggressive driving and I should really adjust my style for minimal wheel spin out of corners but easier said than done when you’re on it and enjoying yourself!
FWD cars will kill front tyres. they're putting in 80% of the steering force, 80% of the braking force, and 100% of the power. plus, in most FWD cars, all the weight is over the front axle. the rear tyres only job is keeping the rear from sliding on the ground.a boxster, being rwd and slightly rear heavy, will use its tyres a lot more evenly!
as for acceleras, the jury is still out. last time out at anglesey, i sorted the tyre pressures, but then wheel alignment was all wrong (not enough front camber, rear toe not within spec) so the car still felt pretty bad. alignment is now sorted, so next trackday (donington, 30th October) should be properly representative, assuming its dry...
so at the moment, i still prefer my old federals, but that was on a car where the wheels were pointing in the right direction!
I've got these tyres currently, only had 2 days on them so far so maybe can't comment to the degree you can on them but my thoughts....
(on a Z4M mind, so rear wheel drive, not completely fair comparison)
I run around -2.5 camber on fronts but I think this outside wear or blistering is quite common unfortunately, I don't think you'll get rid of it unless you go a bit higher camber wise, probably around -3 is a sweet spot. I haven't noticed the kind of wear you have yet on them but fully expect to after around 5-6 track days. Reason being is the Cup2's I had previously did exactly as per your pictures and I had to junk the fronts well before they were worn around the rest of tyre which was disappointing.
So I don't think it's specific to the Zest's, Cup2's being a much more expensive tyre though could argue they are more an ultra road tyre than track tyre anyway. Difference with the Cup2's I could swap them side to side to even out the wear on the fronts to extend the life, I didn't realise with the Zest's they are rotational so that won't be possible which is annoying.
For the price I thought the Zest's compared to Cup2's are pretty good. I would say the Cup2's in the optimal window were slightly more confidence inspiring, but timing wise not much in for me, could match lap times though felt I had to push a bit harder on the Zest's to get there.
To your point though, I think unless you run more camber this will happen on any tyre within reason. Could be wrong, I've not tried the 'higher' tier track tyres yet (AR1's etc.). I probably won't anytime soon either, on an already expensive hobby, the price of tyres these days has shot up compared to the last few years, fast becoming very very costly!
Good luck with it
(on a Z4M mind, so rear wheel drive, not completely fair comparison)
I run around -2.5 camber on fronts but I think this outside wear or blistering is quite common unfortunately, I don't think you'll get rid of it unless you go a bit higher camber wise, probably around -3 is a sweet spot. I haven't noticed the kind of wear you have yet on them but fully expect to after around 5-6 track days. Reason being is the Cup2's I had previously did exactly as per your pictures and I had to junk the fronts well before they were worn around the rest of tyre which was disappointing.
So I don't think it's specific to the Zest's, Cup2's being a much more expensive tyre though could argue they are more an ultra road tyre than track tyre anyway. Difference with the Cup2's I could swap them side to side to even out the wear on the fronts to extend the life, I didn't realise with the Zest's they are rotational so that won't be possible which is annoying.
For the price I thought the Zest's compared to Cup2's are pretty good. I would say the Cup2's in the optimal window were slightly more confidence inspiring, but timing wise not much in for me, could match lap times though felt I had to push a bit harder on the Zest's to get there.
To your point though, I think unless you run more camber this will happen on any tyre within reason. Could be wrong, I've not tried the 'higher' tier track tyres yet (AR1's etc.). I probably won't anytime soon either, on an already expensive hobby, the price of tyres these days has shot up compared to the last few years, fast becoming very very costly!
Good luck with it
Interesting thoughts on your Z4M.
By comparison, my R888’s on my obviously rear wheel drive Boxster S have done four track days and one wet race, (I bought my trek wheels, and once used tires from a guy who used to race in some sort of Boxster cup).
Where across all four tires is completely, even with just the obvious bit of additional wear on the front shoulders. I measured the tread depth a few days ago and rears were 1.5 mm, fronts 2 mm.
Point is, the Toyo’s wear very well, and maybe the OP should consider trying a set of these.
As said, the price of tyres has gone up and up. I am paying £168 for 225/45/17‘s from Track Tyre’s
By comparison, my R888’s on my obviously rear wheel drive Boxster S have done four track days and one wet race, (I bought my trek wheels, and once used tires from a guy who used to race in some sort of Boxster cup).
Where across all four tires is completely, even with just the obvious bit of additional wear on the front shoulders. I measured the tread depth a few days ago and rears were 1.5 mm, fronts 2 mm.
Point is, the Toyo’s wear very well, and maybe the OP should consider trying a set of these.
As said, the price of tyres has gone up and up. I am paying £168 for 225/45/17‘s from Track Tyre’s
brillomaster said:
also... i'm going to go check my tyres! they were also relatively cheap Accelera 651 sports, hope they arent delaminating anywhere like that as they are dangerous!
Mine where on the car for 3 / 4 months didnt see a track and cracked.............. Cheap but I think it was a faulty tyre waiting to see what they say about it at the momentThe tyres are soft and the car is lardy.
I didnt have any issues with them breaking up on my vantage but the wear rate was very high, they were done after a day at Spa, which i had expected after looking at the wear rate after only a short stint on track.
To me it looks like you have gone from not enough camber to too much, and in all honesty i dont think these last well.
NS2-r's are close in terms of grip and last 5 times as long at a broadly similar price point, CUP2's last better and have more traction at a higher cost.
I didnt have any issues with them breaking up on my vantage but the wear rate was very high, they were done after a day at Spa, which i had expected after looking at the wear rate after only a short stint on track.
To me it looks like you have gone from not enough camber to too much, and in all honesty i dont think these last well.
NS2-r's are close in terms of grip and last 5 times as long at a broadly similar price point, CUP2's last better and have more traction at a higher cost.
CedricN said:
225 sounds VERY small for that weight if you have some speed in it
That's a good point - Mk3 MX-5s are usually 215s all round on track and that's with probably 300kg less, less overall pace and sharing the balance more evenly across 4 tyres. I'm surprised you only have 225s, if that's the 'right' size for the car?
fmp said:
standard Golf R tyre sizes are as follows:
225/40/18 or 235/35/19
So a wider tyre on my 18inch track day wheels would help?
What size would you recommend? a 235 or 245? With what side wall profile?
You would need wider wheels aswell to support the sidewall, i guess the current ones are pretty narrow, seems like the golf guys around here run 245-255 tyres. Alternatively you could buy a more heat tolerant track day tyre like kumho v70 and see if they can survive even if they are to small.225/40/18 or 235/35/19
So a wider tyre on my 18inch track day wheels would help?
What size would you recommend? a 235 or 245? With what side wall profile?
CedricN said:
You would need wider wheels aswell to support the sidewall, i guess the current ones are pretty narrow, seems like the golf guys around here run 245-255 tyres. Alternatively you could buy a more heat tolerant track day tyre like kumho v70 and see if they can survive even if they are to small.
current track wheels are 18 x 8's.I dont currently have the budget to be changing wheels. So maybe the next step is to try and better tyre. I have heard good things about Nankang AR1's, so maybe i will try some of those.
fmp said:
CedricN said:
You would need wider wheels aswell to support the sidewall, i guess the current ones are pretty narrow, seems like the golf guys around here run 245-255 tyres. Alternatively you could buy a more heat tolerant track day tyre like kumho v70 and see if they can survive even if they are to small.
current track wheels are 18 x 8's.I dont currently have the budget to be changing wheels. So maybe the next step is to try and better tyre. I have heard good things about Nankang AR1's, so maybe i will try some of those.
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