Lotus Elise R VS Cayman S 987 on track
Discussion
Which is going to make more sense on track as a package?
The Elise appeals because of the whole light weight thing plus I have got into my head that it will require less messing around with than the Porsche as it’s not a big fat road car which will need loads of mods.
However while the BHP per tonne is similar, I worry that the 189Bhp will feel a bit short of breath at high speeds on the big straights (think Donnington or Bedford).
I’ve come from an E36 M3 which again is similar on the BHP per tonne scale but I wonder if in comparison, the elise is going to feel short of breath when speeds get towards three digits.
The Elise appeals because of the whole light weight thing plus I have got into my head that it will require less messing around with than the Porsche as it’s not a big fat road car which will need loads of mods.
However while the BHP per tonne is similar, I worry that the 189Bhp will feel a bit short of breath at high speeds on the big straights (think Donnington or Bedford).
I’ve come from an E36 M3 which again is similar on the BHP per tonne scale but I wonder if in comparison, the elise is going to feel short of breath when speeds get towards three digits.
That'll be the difference in torque.
For a car that's really only seeing track miles though, the Elise would make more sense in my opinion. Lighter, smaller engine = less running costs on fuel, tyres and brakes. And should be the most track ready regarding what's required to keep the car durable and reliable.
Of you're doing a fair number of road miles too, Porsche would make more sense.
Shameless plug: I intend to have my E30 330i available for sale end of the month. That's fully road legal and around 240bhp/tonne at 260bhp / 1090kg with fuel and is ready to go out the box. Let me know if that's of interest to you!
For a car that's really only seeing track miles though, the Elise would make more sense in my opinion. Lighter, smaller engine = less running costs on fuel, tyres and brakes. And should be the most track ready regarding what's required to keep the car durable and reliable.
Of you're doing a fair number of road miles too, Porsche would make more sense.
Shameless plug: I intend to have my E30 330i available for sale end of the month. That's fully road legal and around 240bhp/tonne at 260bhp / 1090kg with fuel and is ready to go out the box. Let me know if that's of interest to you!
I track a 986 S, and got a mate with an elise. The 986s isnt really any faster in a straight line, but the elise is quicker everywhere else, and is such a more involving drive. Plus cheaper to run as mentioned.
The boxster feels like a sofa compared to an elise. Nicer road car, but if youre just focused on track use it'd be the elise for me.
The boxster feels like a sofa compared to an elise. Nicer road car, but if youre just focused on track use it'd be the elise for me.
motorhole said:
…..And should be the most track ready regarding what's required to keep the car
!
Yeah that was my thinking too. !
brillomaster said:
The 986s isn’t really any faster in a straight line, but the elise is quicker everywhere else.
That’s good to hear!Since posting last night I have managed to get hold of some in gear times and it looks like the Elise runs out of puff about 120 MPH where the likes of the Porsche or an M3 are going to have the legs on it after that, with the higher BHP offsetting the drag. I need to see some track plots but in my experience you never really crack higher than 130 so potentially it doesn’t matter.
motorhole said:
Shameless plug: I intend to have my E30 330i available for sale end of the month. That's fully road legal and around 240bhp/tonne at 260bhp / 1090kg with fuel and is ready to go out the box. Let me know if that's of interest to you!
I do a love a vintage BMW (E30’s just look so right don’t they) but as much as it pains me to say it, I am going to pass. The reason I got rid of the E36 M3 was it had become like painting the forth bridge and swapping into an even older and even more modified BMW would have me questioning my sanity!steven said:
I do a love a vintage BMW (E30’s just look so right don’t they) but as much as it pains me to say it, I am going to pass. The reason I got rid of the E36 M3 was it had become like painting the forth bridge and swapping into an even older and even more modified BMW would have me questioning my sanity!
No worries at all mate! Haha it's some way off what you were looking for like 
I'm actually looking to get into a 987 but for different reasons; moving from a road legal full-on track car that isn't particularly enjoyable on the road to a road friendly weekender car that can do the odd track day when called upon.
steven said:
Since posting last night I have managed to get hold of some in gear times and it looks like the Elise runs out of puff about 120 MPH where the likes of the Porsche or an M3 are going to have the legs on it after that, with the higher BHP offsetting the drag. I need to see some track plots but in my experience you never really crack higher than 130 so potentially it doesn’t matter.
As brillo said the Elise's straightline pace will barely be behind at the end of the straights, but ahead everywhere else - the straights simply aren't long enough. Even in my GT3 the speed at Snett is maybe 140-145, Hangar staight at s'stone doesn't feel very long and is 140-145 from memory too. Donington doesn't have a long straight at all. The highest speed at a UK track day for me has actually been at Goodwood where the GT3 was 155+. That was fun but in reality you're still not making any big gain on the straight even if you hit 10-20 mph higher for a few secs.
Basically, get an Elise. Have a look at Elise Trophy laptimes for what 'slow' Elises can do (i.e not supercharged Toyotas or VHPD K-series etc).
userames with brackets don't work for quoting very well!
My fastest on a UK race track was about 133-135 at Snetterton in a TVR Chimaera. The straights just aren't long enough.
If I had been a better driver and able to get onto the Bentley straight faster, then I might have been a couple of mph faster.
As it was, the turn into the Esses at the end was, shall we say, "amusing", if a full sidewqays slide at well over 100mph can be thus described.
Fastest I have ever been in a car on track is 147, in the passenger seat of a Porcshe GT3 at Bedford (before he braked for the chicane).
I have been overtaken on the Bentley Straight at Snetterton straight by someone doing about 160 mph.......but it was a GT4 race Aston Martin driven by a fearless 16 year old girl doing a shakedown before that weekend's British GT race.
I agree with many of the comments above. It all depends on what you intend to use the car for, and whether you want your other half to enjoy being a passenger in it on the road.
All out track car, I would go for the Elise every time and take it to tracks like Cadwell Park and Oulton Park where you can enjoy the brilliant handling. Cadwell Park has 13 corners, and is the natural environment for the Elise.
If you are planning on having it as a road car with track day use as well, then the Porsche would be my choice, as you will get much more use out of it. Trust me on this - my wife refuses to passenger in my TVR, she hates the feeling of vulnerability even more than she hates the lack of creature comforts, whereas a friend's wife of similar age loves going out in his Boxster S RS60. It's a really nice place to be.
Regular running costs will be lower in the Elise, as fuel, tyres and brakes are the main costs on track days. The lighter the car, the less often you need more.
If I had been a better driver and able to get onto the Bentley straight faster, then I might have been a couple of mph faster.
As it was, the turn into the Esses at the end was, shall we say, "amusing", if a full sidewqays slide at well over 100mph can be thus described.
Fastest I have ever been in a car on track is 147, in the passenger seat of a Porcshe GT3 at Bedford (before he braked for the chicane).
I have been overtaken on the Bentley Straight at Snetterton straight by someone doing about 160 mph.......but it was a GT4 race Aston Martin driven by a fearless 16 year old girl doing a shakedown before that weekend's British GT race.
I agree with many of the comments above. It all depends on what you intend to use the car for, and whether you want your other half to enjoy being a passenger in it on the road.
All out track car, I would go for the Elise every time and take it to tracks like Cadwell Park and Oulton Park where you can enjoy the brilliant handling. Cadwell Park has 13 corners, and is the natural environment for the Elise.
If you are planning on having it as a road car with track day use as well, then the Porsche would be my choice, as you will get much more use out of it. Trust me on this - my wife refuses to passenger in my TVR, she hates the feeling of vulnerability even more than she hates the lack of creature comforts, whereas a friend's wife of similar age loves going out in his Boxster S RS60. It's a really nice place to be.
Regular running costs will be lower in the Elise, as fuel, tyres and brakes are the main costs on track days. The lighter the car, the less often you need more.
Also, it depends on how tall you are. I have driven an Exige on track and while it was a brilliant experience it was really uncomfortable as I had to drive with my head sideways due to lack of headroom. We won’t even go there with the getting in and out. I am 6‘2“ tall, arguably with a long back but it was awful, (But brilliant).
I have a Boxster S which is pretty amazing for a car of this weight on track and is absolutely brilliant as a road car. Naturally, headroom was a criteria when buying this car but there is plenty!
If you are of medium size then the Elise will be the most agile on track but don’t discount the Boxster as it is pretty amazing in its own right and feels far from lardy.
I hardly ever see a Boxster on track but recently there was four at Bedford which was surprising. Good to see, a nice change from the usual hatches.
I have a Boxster S which is pretty amazing for a car of this weight on track and is absolutely brilliant as a road car. Naturally, headroom was a criteria when buying this car but there is plenty!
If you are of medium size then the Elise will be the most agile on track but don’t discount the Boxster as it is pretty amazing in its own right and feels far from lardy.
I hardly ever see a Boxster on track but recently there was four at Bedford which was surprising. Good to see, a nice change from the usual hatches.
QBee said:
I have been overtaken on the Bentley Straight at Snetterton straight by someone doing about 160 mph.......but it was a GT4 race Aston Martin driven by a fearless 16 year old girl doing a shakedown before that weekend's British GT race.
I think you might need your speedo recalibrating. GT4 race cars only reach a shade over 140mph on the Bentley straight and even GT3 race cars only approach 155mph. dhdev said:
QBee said:
I have been overtaken on the Bentley Straight at Snetterton straight by someone doing about 160 mph.......but it was a GT4 race Aston Martin driven by a fearless 16 year old girl doing a shakedown before that weekend's British GT race.
I think you might need your speedo recalibrating. GT4 race cars only reach a shade over 140mph on the Bentley straight and even GT3 race cars only approach 155mph. motorhole said:
For a car that's really only seeing track miles though, the Elise would make more sense in my opinion. Lighter, smaller engine = less running costs on fuel, tyres and brakes. And should be the most track ready regarding what's required to keep the car durable and reliable.
This is a huge point. I tracked my Elise and it barely wore anything out. It's so light that TD consumables just weren't a thing.
Then I bought a Megane RS265. Wow, it was like tracking my house! So much weight moving around and it went through brakes and suspension like nobody's business.
I think you'll find the same with the Porsche. Lovely car but lovely car for the roads.
I've owned and tracked both a 190bhp S2 exige and 2x 987 Cayman's and the performance is similar for both, for me the exige was compromised on the road so I prefer the Cayman's.
Cayman also had a lovely engine and gearbox which means a lot to me.
As others have said consumables will be better on the Elise but the Cayman brakes etc are surprisingly cheap when compared to your BMW.
Dunc.
Cayman also had a lovely engine and gearbox which means a lot to me.
As others have said consumables will be better on the Elise but the Cayman brakes etc are surprisingly cheap when compared to your BMW.
Dunc.
Edited by dunc_sx on Sunday 17th July 22:20
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