Going Less Extreme?
Discussion
So I've been running this E30 BMW as a track car for some time now - 2012 I think all in, and since 2018 in its current spec. I have no complaints. With around 240 bhp/tonne it's quite lively, laps at a great pace, it's cheap(ish) on tyres and brakes and it's been absolutely reliable, save for one gear linkage failure last year.
But it is quite hardcore. So much so, trackdays and driving to/from trackdays are pretty much all it gets used for because for anything other than short blasts, driving it on the road is more a chore than a pleasure. Plus the missus won't drive it and doesn't enjoy being in it - mainly because of the noise and heat.
Considering the increasing costs of fuel and trackdays too, I'm 'researching' chopping it in for something I can enjoy more on the road, that the wife will get some enjoyment from too and that I can still do a few trackdays in. Also, I can't stay away from the spanners for long so it's likely it will migrate from OEM spec, but will retain carpets, seat belts, air-con and ICE this time at least!
Given the value I suspect is tied up in the E30 & spares right now, I figure something like a 987 Cayman or a Z4 Coupe would fit the bill. Whatever it is, it really needs to feel fairly special on the road to make it worth my while I think. But - will I miss the drama and the performance of the E30 on track? I'll also likely end up out of pocket as the E30 is still an accruing asset too. I haven't decided how important this is to me - but perhaps that's less important if I'm getting more use out of whatever I purchase.
Is there any feedback from anyone that has done a similar thing?
But it is quite hardcore. So much so, trackdays and driving to/from trackdays are pretty much all it gets used for because for anything other than short blasts, driving it on the road is more a chore than a pleasure. Plus the missus won't drive it and doesn't enjoy being in it - mainly because of the noise and heat.
Considering the increasing costs of fuel and trackdays too, I'm 'researching' chopping it in for something I can enjoy more on the road, that the wife will get some enjoyment from too and that I can still do a few trackdays in. Also, I can't stay away from the spanners for long so it's likely it will migrate from OEM spec, but will retain carpets, seat belts, air-con and ICE this time at least!
Given the value I suspect is tied up in the E30 & spares right now, I figure something like a 987 Cayman or a Z4 Coupe would fit the bill. Whatever it is, it really needs to feel fairly special on the road to make it worth my while I think. But - will I miss the drama and the performance of the E30 on track? I'll also likely end up out of pocket as the E30 is still an accruing asset too. I haven't decided how important this is to me - but perhaps that's less important if I'm getting more use out of whatever I purchase.
Is there any feedback from anyone that has done a similar thing?
I'd focus on making the e30 more wife-friendly than buying something else.
Once you've bought something else, you'll end up back down the rabbit hole of upgrades and be back where you started
Put the carpets back in, some reclining buckets and the seatbelts.
Maybe some heat shields/tape around the trans tunnel etc to keep the heat down.
A little dynamat here and there will help too, no need to go crazy with it.
ETA - you could paint the interior with these before putting the carpet in... (Two different coatings for heat and noise.
https://lizardskin.com/
Once you've bought something else, you'll end up back down the rabbit hole of upgrades and be back where you started
Put the carpets back in, some reclining buckets and the seatbelts.
Maybe some heat shields/tape around the trans tunnel etc to keep the heat down.
A little dynamat here and there will help too, no need to go crazy with it.
ETA - you could paint the interior with these before putting the carpet in... (Two different coatings for heat and noise.
https://lizardskin.com/
Edited by Dave. on Sunday 22 May 13:09
As you've discovered, track cars are lousy on the road.
You won't be surprised to hear that road cars aren't much use on track. But that's not really the point. Once a road car is quick enough for road use - and that's usually limited by visibility (i.e. common sense) rather than performance - there's considerable pleasue to be had from a nicely balanced chassis.
You won't be surprised to hear that road cars aren't much use on track. But that's not really the point. Once a road car is quick enough for road use - and that's usually limited by visibility (i.e. common sense) rather than performance - there's considerable pleasue to be had from a nicely balanced chassis.
Run two cars.
Go and buy a second car, take her with you to choose it, listen to what she says and buy what she asks (apart from a pink convertible Nissan Micra - there are limits).
As you well know already, you can only use performance cars properly in this country on a race track, so the sooner you accept that your journeys together are going to be in a car she likes, the better your relationship will be.
End.
(My wife won't go in my TVR, all the same reasons you mention, even though I swap the belts back for road use and haven't stripped it out. She complains about the noise too, even though she is deaf and can actually flip a switch and turn off her hearing completely. And the V8 heater. And the vibrations. And she has had me take her off the insurance since she had to drive it 50 miles home in heavy traffic 9 years ago.
Over the years she has become used to car seats that are armchairs, recline and are heated, and air conditioning. And since we got the X Trail - don't laugh - she now prefers to go any distance in that 136 bhp of diesel dreariness because with age she has become a more and more nervous passenger and likes to have a better view of the road. Longer journeys are now only bearable for me as driver if she either gets her book or ipad out - one of the positives about being deaf is no car sickness - or goes to sleep.)
Go and buy a second car, take her with you to choose it, listen to what she says and buy what she asks (apart from a pink convertible Nissan Micra - there are limits).
As you well know already, you can only use performance cars properly in this country on a race track, so the sooner you accept that your journeys together are going to be in a car she likes, the better your relationship will be.
End.
(My wife won't go in my TVR, all the same reasons you mention, even though I swap the belts back for road use and haven't stripped it out. She complains about the noise too, even though she is deaf and can actually flip a switch and turn off her hearing completely. And the V8 heater. And the vibrations. And she has had me take her off the insurance since she had to drive it 50 miles home in heavy traffic 9 years ago.
Over the years she has become used to car seats that are armchairs, recline and are heated, and air conditioning. And since we got the X Trail - don't laugh - she now prefers to go any distance in that 136 bhp of diesel dreariness because with age she has become a more and more nervous passenger and likes to have a better view of the road. Longer journeys are now only bearable for me as driver if she either gets her book or ipad out - one of the positives about being deaf is no car sickness - or goes to sleep.)
I run an m140 as my only car. It’s more track biased with suspension work etc but is still perfectly acceptable as a road car, I use it pretty much everyday, do long road trips, drive to and from tracks, still has radio cruise and everything else, can get my dog in it.
But is still great fun on track, 350bhp rear wheel drive, keeps up with much more track focused/more expensive stuff now it has a proper suspension set up and sorted brakes.
But is still great fun on track, 350bhp rear wheel drive, keeps up with much more track focused/more expensive stuff now it has a proper suspension set up and sorted brakes.
I did a similar thing a few years ago & loved the "new" challenge once again.
I had an e36 328 that was stripped/caged/bucketed/harnessed etc & loved it, but Mrs E hated it, especially when harnessed in she said she felt like she was in a child seat.
Sold up & after a lot of trying cars, came up with an r53 Cooper S.
I deliberately kept it fully dual purpose but also usable as a bit of a weapon on track.
Ended up with 235 bhp & cornered like a house fly, but the wife still liked going out in it.
She wouldn't drive it as even with an lsd it could be a bit flighty, but she had no issue with going out for a buzz round in the "Bee" as she called it due to the engine noise on song.
The car still had a full interior (rears out for a TD obviously) albeit with different front seats for more headroom, was only slightly more harsh for NVH due to poly bushes.
I had an e36 328 that was stripped/caged/bucketed/harnessed etc & loved it, but Mrs E hated it, especially when harnessed in she said she felt like she was in a child seat.
Sold up & after a lot of trying cars, came up with an r53 Cooper S.
I deliberately kept it fully dual purpose but also usable as a bit of a weapon on track.
Ended up with 235 bhp & cornered like a house fly, but the wife still liked going out in it.
She wouldn't drive it as even with an lsd it could be a bit flighty, but she had no issue with going out for a buzz round in the "Bee" as she called it due to the engine noise on song.
The car still had a full interior (rears out for a TD obviously) albeit with different front seats for more headroom, was only slightly more harsh for NVH due to poly bushes.
well, if your wife doesnt like a car because of the noise and heat, you just need to make sure whatever car you get still has a/c, and still has an interior, and doesnt have a silly loud exhaust. but other than that, have at it in terms of tyres, brakes and suspension mods.
if you like BMWs, a Z4 coupe would be a good shout. I used to track a z4 roadster, and i thought it was great. 3 litre straight six, 230bhp, bought for 3 grand. lots of carry over parts from an e46 too, but felt very compact, i thought it handled great and was good fun. and for the wife, it had cruise control, A/C, electric seats, all good stuff.
A z4 coupe would be more of the same except with a roof, and 250bhp from a slightly newer engine. plenty of people track them on the z4 forums too.
something else to consider might be a 130i, or a 135i. a remapped 135i will be pushing 360bhp and has decent brakes as standard (obviously need proper track pads though)
heck you could even go for an E46 330ci, though that might be a bit of a boat compared to an E30.
if you like BMWs, a Z4 coupe would be a good shout. I used to track a z4 roadster, and i thought it was great. 3 litre straight six, 230bhp, bought for 3 grand. lots of carry over parts from an e46 too, but felt very compact, i thought it handled great and was good fun. and for the wife, it had cruise control, A/C, electric seats, all good stuff.
A z4 coupe would be more of the same except with a roof, and 250bhp from a slightly newer engine. plenty of people track them on the z4 forums too.
something else to consider might be a 130i, or a 135i. a remapped 135i will be pushing 360bhp and has decent brakes as standard (obviously need proper track pads though)
heck you could even go for an E46 330ci, though that might be a bit of a boat compared to an E30.
Thanks for all of the responses. Some interesting ideas...PH never disappoints.
I think a Caterham or something like that would end up getting used even less unless I had a trailer (see above re. space). One of my mates had a really nicely built seven-alike but it's not a car to be driven to and from the track when the skies are grey. It only took him one grim trip down the M6 to rethink his choices. This is what it's all about really. Is it worth keeping, insuring & MOTing the E30 if it's going to sit in the garage, bar 2-3 outings a year? I've been using it for 5-6 trackdays a year up to this point which for me is enough to justify it.
Thanks for the feedback E-bmw & brillomaster - any regrets at all, after having trodden this path?
leef44 said:
Sorry I have no advice.
I just wanted to say that is quite cool and I envy what you've done
I'm a numpty with a spanner, plus health issues and financial constraints means this is not possible for me but I'd love to have done what you've done and an E30 is a great start point.
Thank you sir!I just wanted to say that is quite cool and I envy what you've done
I'm a numpty with a spanner, plus health issues and financial constraints means this is not possible for me but I'd love to have done what you've done and an E30 is a great start point.
Dave. said:
I'd focus on making the e30 more wife-friendly than buying something else.
Once you've bought something else, you'll end up back down the rabbit hole of upgrades and be back where you started
Like the idea, but it's way too far gone for that. Loom stripped to the basics and made modular, welded rollcage, floor-mounted pedal box & bias bar, internal brake lines plus all the other race gubbins such as FIA cut-off switch and integral fire extinguisher. Short of plastic windows and external cut-off/extinguisher pull, it's full on race spec, not really a stripped out road car. The only way this would work would be to buy another nice E30 and transfer much of the running gear - but given the value of them now, I'd end up ripping two cars apart to build something that's only really worth one of what I started with. Plus space & time are both limited. Once you've bought something else, you'll end up back down the rabbit hole of upgrades and be back where you started
Panamax said:
Once a road car is quick enough for road use - and that's usually limited by visibility (i.e. common sense) rather than performance
Absolutely. Beyond a certain point, the person who can drive the fastest on the road is normally the person willing to take the most risks. Not how I roll. That means a vehicle fulfilling the duty of a 'fun' car needs to be entertaining in other ways too. My Octavia vRS daily is a practical and capable thing, even fun sometimes, but it's not exactly the last word in driver engagement. I think a Caterham or something like that would end up getting used even less unless I had a trailer (see above re. space). One of my mates had a really nicely built seven-alike but it's not a car to be driven to and from the track when the skies are grey. It only took him one grim trip down the M6 to rethink his choices. This is what it's all about really. Is it worth keeping, insuring & MOTing the E30 if it's going to sit in the garage, bar 2-3 outings a year? I've been using it for 5-6 trackdays a year up to this point which for me is enough to justify it.
Thanks for the feedback E-bmw & brillomaster - any regrets at all, after having trodden this path?
You can go drop top all rounder & light & then it doesn't matter the noise, something to fiddle with say a Celica 190 in a mk2 mr2 or a turbo or SC mx5 etc, set it up properly but just don't go extreme on the spring rates. Light fun things that are as fun off track as on.
Or the modern turbo bmw route, doesn't even have to be an M, v fast indeed, decent set up & on the right rubber, lap times be leagues ahead of the bmw & still comfy on road, yes rather disconnected vs a sub 1 ton toy but that's the compromise
Or the modern turbo bmw route, doesn't even have to be an M, v fast indeed, decent set up & on the right rubber, lap times be leagues ahead of the bmw & still comfy on road, yes rather disconnected vs a sub 1 ton toy but that's the compromise
my days of stripping all the weight out of a track car are over i think.
Sure it is great fun buying a cheap bmw 3 series with some mates, and spending an enjoyable afternoon ripping everything out the interior for free speed, but it leaves you with a car that is so compromised it can only drive to and from a track, and then on the track itself. the first car we had we even took the radio out, that was a mistake, in hindsight.
but if you're only doing trackdays and arent chasing tenths in a race, then compromising a car in such a way is just limiting. nowadays i aim to have a comfortable weekend car, but with a few upgrades (namely brakes and tyres) to withstand the rigours of a track day or two.
After my z4, which was unmodified apart from brakes and tyres, i now have a porsche boxster, again, only modified with tyres this time. and its still great on track - might not be the sharpest or fastest car out there, but it makes a lovely noise, heel and toeing on the downshifts continues to be wonderful, and porsche know how to make a car handle. but it can also be used to take the wife out for a day, or go to the pub for dinner of a warm evening, or go see my dad and drive around wales. None of which i would have done in a stripped out 3 series. i subsequently get a lot more joy out of the boxster and i can use it to make memories with the people i care about, AND still do half a dozen trackdays a year in it.
Sure it is great fun buying a cheap bmw 3 series with some mates, and spending an enjoyable afternoon ripping everything out the interior for free speed, but it leaves you with a car that is so compromised it can only drive to and from a track, and then on the track itself. the first car we had we even took the radio out, that was a mistake, in hindsight.
but if you're only doing trackdays and arent chasing tenths in a race, then compromising a car in such a way is just limiting. nowadays i aim to have a comfortable weekend car, but with a few upgrades (namely brakes and tyres) to withstand the rigours of a track day or two.
After my z4, which was unmodified apart from brakes and tyres, i now have a porsche boxster, again, only modified with tyres this time. and its still great on track - might not be the sharpest or fastest car out there, but it makes a lovely noise, heel and toeing on the downshifts continues to be wonderful, and porsche know how to make a car handle. but it can also be used to take the wife out for a day, or go to the pub for dinner of a warm evening, or go see my dad and drive around wales. None of which i would have done in a stripped out 3 series. i subsequently get a lot more joy out of the boxster and i can use it to make memories with the people i care about, AND still do half a dozen trackdays a year in it.
iguana said:
Or the modern turbo bmw route, doesn't even have to be an M, v fast indeed, decent set up & on the right rubber, lap times be leagues ahead of the bmw & still comfy on road, yes rather disconnected vs a sub 1 ton toy but that's the compromise
The BMW turbo stuff sets a mental pace with a few mods - remap, sticky tyres, coilovers & brakes etc. But the old E30 can hold its own amongst standard M cars. Surprises a lot of folk! Either way though I don't see myself getting a lot of joy out of a heavy, over-tyred saloon with massive power. Brillomaster - great feedback, thanks! Sounds like your train of thought then is what I'm going through now and it also sounds like you're loving it
I’ve got a 350Z which is set up predominantly as a track car - But still has AC, full interior, great sound system, cruise control etc. So I’d drive it across Europe no issue and I also don’t dread getting into it after a track day to drive home.
The big radiator, oil cooler, bigger brakes which are what really make it a solid track car, and don’t impact it’s use on the road. I have adjuster extensions on my coilovers so they’re easy to knock back to soft for the drive home, have kept everything bushed (no rose joints), and keep the alignment sensible so I’m not fighting with it on the road. It’s a nice compromise.
The big radiator, oil cooler, bigger brakes which are what really make it a solid track car, and don’t impact it’s use on the road. I have adjuster extensions on my coilovers so they’re easy to knock back to soft for the drive home, have kept everything bushed (no rose joints), and keep the alignment sensible so I’m not fighting with it on the road. It’s a nice compromise.
Years ago I read an article on track driving (I think by Mark Hales) which said that the problem with taking a road car on track was that you spent more time dealing with the limitations of the car in terms of braking and handling than actually concentrating on driving the track. He gave a few exceptions, Caterfields and Loti but even then wasn't convinced.
The OPs current car looks like it has overcome many of the road car on track problems but is hardly a road car anymore.
I've trackdayed a wide variety of cars over 25 years, chasing the Holy Grail of a fun road car but also very quick on track, all road legal but sometimes trailered, a TVR Tasmin, various Clios, a Caterham, a 200hp Westfield and currently a Megane RS250 Cup with a few mods.
The Caterham was interesting, a X-Flow Supersprint with soft suspension and high profile road tyres, it made a great road car, took bumpy lanes better than almost anything else I've driven but was poor on track due to it's soft setup and not exactly grippy tyres.
I'm getting a bit old for shoving trailers around and loading up at the end of a trackday so now it's the Megane, it's on H&R springs, a 300hp remap and uprated brakes, it's a stiff road car but perfectly usable daily and seems properly quick on track, maybe I've finally found what I'm looking for!
But I'll probably get bored and try something else next year!
The OPs current car looks like it has overcome many of the road car on track problems but is hardly a road car anymore.
I've trackdayed a wide variety of cars over 25 years, chasing the Holy Grail of a fun road car but also very quick on track, all road legal but sometimes trailered, a TVR Tasmin, various Clios, a Caterham, a 200hp Westfield and currently a Megane RS250 Cup with a few mods.
The Caterham was interesting, a X-Flow Supersprint with soft suspension and high profile road tyres, it made a great road car, took bumpy lanes better than almost anything else I've driven but was poor on track due to it's soft setup and not exactly grippy tyres.
I'm getting a bit old for shoving trailers around and loading up at the end of a trackday so now it's the Megane, it's on H&R springs, a 300hp remap and uprated brakes, it's a stiff road car but perfectly usable daily and seems properly quick on track, maybe I've finally found what I'm looking for!
But I'll probably get bored and try something else next year!
brillomaster said:
After my z4, which was unmodified apart from brakes and tyres, i now have a porsche boxster, again, only modified with tyres this time. and its still great on track - might not be the sharpest or fastest car out there, but it makes a lovely noise, heel and toeing on the downshifts continues to be wonderful, and porsche know how to make a car handle. but it can also be used to take the wife out for a day, or go to the pub for dinner of a warm evening, or go see my dad and drive around wales. None of which i would have done in a stripped out 3 series. i subsequently get a lot more joy out of the boxster and i can use it to make memories with the people i care about, AND still do half a dozen trackdays a year in it.
Absolutely spot-on. I have a semi stripped modified Track Day Skoda vRS also a 987.1 Boxster S which I’ve done three Track Days with recently. I have a spare set of wheels with a set of R888’s fitted and also a set of DS2500‘s which takes me less than an hour to fit before a track day. It is fantastic on track and I’m tempted to use it all the time but my sensible head is holding back of the car is so nice and such a good drive on the road.
My wife loves coming out in it and when the weather is good I use it all the time. I can’t say enough about its ability on track. At a TVR car club track day last week at Cadwell I wasn’t passed all day which must say something about its ability, (okay, not exactly a dedicated track day for hard-core enthusiasts!).
A big
from me.Are there any oil starvation issues with the standard sump?
Not trying to piss on your Boxster fireworks, it's just something I vaguely remember reading about concerning using them full on with track tyres, and I wouldn't want the unwary having a Porsche engine bill.
Honest question, Phazed will know, and be able to comment.
Not trying to piss on your Boxster fireworks, it's just something I vaguely remember reading about concerning using them full on with track tyres, and I wouldn't want the unwary having a Porsche engine bill.
Honest question, Phazed will know, and be able to comment.
I've done a fair few track days in my 987.1 2.7 Cayman and I have never had any issues. I'm not using full blown slicks but I do use road legal semi slicks. I think if you want to use slicks then yes, you probably need to look at oiling mods but otherwise I think they're fine. A lot of the scare stories seem to come from the US where people are building what amounts to a race car and then running it on slick tyres.
Just to second what others have said they really are great cars and very impressive out of the box. The only modification that I think really helps is increasing the camber on the front axle. Mine runs - 2 all round and I still think that another half of a degree on the front is needed. The rear seems perfect at - 2
Just to second what others have said they really are great cars and very impressive out of the box. The only modification that I think really helps is increasing the camber on the front axle. Mine runs - 2 all round and I still think that another half of a degree on the front is needed. The rear seems perfect at - 2
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