Idiots guide to track setup (or car choice)
Discussion
Apologies if this isn't posted in the right place, feel free to steer me somewhere better.
I am lucky enough to have a Porsche 718 GTS 4.0. I have taken this on about five track days now but I feel like I made the 'wrong' choice with the car. My driving I think is OK (who doesn't say that! but I have a few pointers like Karting and SIM racing to suggest I'm not the worst) so hopefully it's not just because I'm doing things wrong - but the car seems to have a lot of understeer, the breaks are relatively soft with lots of travel, and the suspension seems a bit soft now I've gotten into things a bit more.
So I'm considering either selling/swapping or making some changes. Swapping is easier because I don't have much spare cash (track days are more expensive than I realised!). However, I'd be tempted to stop for a year if I knew the upgrades were a sensible, and reliable (see below) choice.
Due to where I live (and budget) I really need a car that:
- Can get me to the track (I don't have space for a trailer)
- Is reliable
- Costs no more than my current car
- Is ideally as stock as possible to keep things simple
I don't need a car for:
- Anything else really (at worst I might use it once a month to go grab something from a shop)
In short, I want something more aggressively track and less for the road - but I also don't know a wheelnut from an allen key or have millions to spend or even a proper garage. Any help greatly appreciated!!
I am lucky enough to have a Porsche 718 GTS 4.0. I have taken this on about five track days now but I feel like I made the 'wrong' choice with the car. My driving I think is OK (who doesn't say that! but I have a few pointers like Karting and SIM racing to suggest I'm not the worst) so hopefully it's not just because I'm doing things wrong - but the car seems to have a lot of understeer, the breaks are relatively soft with lots of travel, and the suspension seems a bit soft now I've gotten into things a bit more.
So I'm considering either selling/swapping or making some changes. Swapping is easier because I don't have much spare cash (track days are more expensive than I realised!). However, I'd be tempted to stop for a year if I knew the upgrades were a sensible, and reliable (see below) choice.
Due to where I live (and budget) I really need a car that:
- Can get me to the track (I don't have space for a trailer)
- Is reliable
- Costs no more than my current car
- Is ideally as stock as possible to keep things simple
I don't need a car for:
- Anything else really (at worst I might use it once a month to go grab something from a shop)
In short, I want something more aggressively track and less for the road - but I also don't know a wheelnut from an allen key or have millions to spend or even a proper garage. Any help greatly appreciated!!
In terms of making the most of what you have;
- track tuition - half a day with an instructor in your car will give you a better handle on getting the best out of what you have, where to brake, line etc. I'm probably similar to you in that I'm an 'OK' driver, definitely faster than your average member of the population around a track, but I still find I learn a lot from a half-decent instructor.
- geometry / alignment - somewhere like Wheels in Motion should be able to adjust the camber, toe and caster that can to some extent reduce understeer and give better feedback/feel.
- brake pads - better pads (eg CL5+) will give a stronger response which makes them feel less soft. Potentially braided brake lines can help here also.
- tyres - if you're mostly driving on-track you can likely go for a fairly aggressive set of tyres like Michelin Cup 2s, will give more grip and also a 'stiffer' turn-in response
- seat upgrade for one that holds you better - I guess there are quite a few Porsche OEM seats out there that may be fittable to a Cayman
410 is the kind of thing I'm considering but isn't reliability a bit of an issue?
Toe in pads etc sound good but I'm not sure where to start (I will try the place you've mentioned though thanks!). Also - how much will this hurt resale cost do you think? Once I start with mods am I somewhat locked into the car?
Toe in pads etc sound good but I'm not sure where to start (I will try the place you've mentioned though thanks!). Also - how much will this hurt resale cost do you think? Once I start with mods am I somewhat locked into the car?
yanni_1 said:
Toe in pads etc sound good but I'm not sure where to start (I will try the place you've mentioned though thanks!). Also - how much will this hurt resale cost do you think? Once I start with mods am I somewhat locked into the car?
Generally best to ask around on Porsche-specific forums for this sort of thing, people will have preferred places and potentially recommended sets of alignment settings for track use. I just went to the WIM website and learned the company has changed hands, so unsure exactly how good it remains. But there are quite a few decent places that can do a good four wheel alignment to factory or better settings.I think one of the good things about having a Porsche is there are lots of other owners out there tracking their cars etc who will be able to advise.
In terms of mods and resale; tuition obviously is irrelevant, geometry is irrelevant (new owner can always have it reset to factory settings, geometry drifts/gets knocked out over miles anyway), tyres are irrelevant apart from the sunk cost to you, no-one will turn down a used performance car because it has Cup2s on. Brake pads again I wouldn't worry, they're a consumable that are easily changed. A seat upgrade would be the only thing in my list that might limit your resale options, unless you have space to store the original items.
yanni_1 said:
410 is the kind of thing I'm considering but isn't reliability a bit of an issue?
What makes you think that?I’ve owned two Porsches (987 Cayman & 991 C4S) and I used to worry more about reliability with those than I do my Exige.
The engine is a bulletprooof Toyota V6. The gearbox is Toyota. The brakes are AP Racing. The suspension is 3 way adjustable Nitron. That doesn’t leave much to go wrong really on such a simple car, especially as the 410’s were later cars and therefore earlier problems should have been sorted.
Any Lotus faults tend to be annoying niggles if anything.
I wanted something didn’t need to be garaged, could be comfortably driven 3 or 4 hours to circuits, be thrashed round all day, and then driven home again. But also be involving. And not cost loads on consumables. I decided on a 410, and I’m still not sure I can think of anything better for the money.
Road cars don't make good track cars. Too soft and too heavy.
IMO track cars make lousy road cars. Too stiff, too harsh and too noisy.
You pays your money and you takes your choice.
You'd probably have more fun and spend no more money renting single seaters than trashing a set of tyres and brakes every time you track that Porsche.
Wonder what you're spending on trackday insurance at the moment? Few people would be risking a car like that, driven hard, without it.
IMO track cars make lousy road cars. Too stiff, too harsh and too noisy.
You pays your money and you takes your choice.
You'd probably have more fun and spend no more money renting single seaters than trashing a set of tyres and brakes every time you track that Porsche.
Wonder what you're spending on trackday insurance at the moment? Few people would be risking a car like that, driven hard, without it.
Ariel Atom in a spec that costs the same as your GTS. Before doing that though, have you tried mucking about with tyre pressures to alter the handling to your liking. I was out with a chum in his GT4 at Snetterton the other day, and he was running pressures way lower than standard at the front - the car seemed pretty pointy from the passenger seat.
Panamax said:
Wonder what you're spending on trackday insurance at the moment? Few people would be risking a car like that, driven hard, without it.
That doesn’t have to be expensive on an all-in-one policy. The cover on my car is for 5000 miles a year and includes cover for 6 track days with any organiser, and as many days as I want with a club such as Lotus On Track. The policy costs £890.
sticks090460 said:
have you tried mucking about with tyre pressures to alter the handling to your liking. I was out with a chum in his GT4 at Snetterton the other day, and he was running pressures way lower than standard at the front - the car seemed pretty pointy from the passenger seat.
Damn, I knew there was something I forgot - tyre pressures. It's also worth noting that as you lap, your tyres get hot which increases the pressure, so after coming in off the first session you should generally let some air out to bring them back down to the intended pressure. (and then pump them up a bit at the end of the day). One possibility may be that you're heating your front tyres more than the rears due to braking, putting them at too high a pressure and reducing front grip, causing understeer.On the driving side, you might try trail braking to combat understeer on entry. I was playing around with this at the first corner at Blyton in my RX-7, hilarious how it just keeps rotating on entry, until you release the brake.
On the Exiges, I think the ones with 'Cup' in the name are the most track-focused. Having said that, I reckon any Exige will be lighter and more track-oriented than your car (which is more akin to the Evora in the Lotus range), and I also think some of the 'Cup' difference is in details like which tyre it comes on, which may be irrelevant once the car is second-hand anyway.
I imagine the issue with lift-off tuck-in, from Porsche's point of view, would be that the average driver, if they discover the unexpected around a corner, is likely to lift off the throttle sharply and swerve to avoid it. So a car that rotates markedly in this situation could be an issue; and with the engine behind you it could get out of hand. I think this is something that alignment can change somewhat. It'll also tend to be more marked at higher engine revs, so getting into as low a gear as possible on the way in will increase throttle sensitivity. I don't know if the stability control on your car would be trying to counter-act the effects, either.
I tend to bring a separate pressure gauge to the track and check the tyres manually after the first half-decent session, they usually want some air letting out. Does the GTS have tyre pressure displayed on the dash in PSI? If it's just normal TPMS, I think that alerts you if the pressures are too low, but not if they're too high.
I imagine the issue with lift-off tuck-in, from Porsche's point of view, would be that the average driver, if they discover the unexpected around a corner, is likely to lift off the throttle sharply and swerve to avoid it. So a car that rotates markedly in this situation could be an issue; and with the engine behind you it could get out of hand. I think this is something that alignment can change somewhat. It'll also tend to be more marked at higher engine revs, so getting into as low a gear as possible on the way in will increase throttle sensitivity. I don't know if the stability control on your car would be trying to counter-act the effects, either.
I tend to bring a separate pressure gauge to the track and check the tyres manually after the first half-decent session, they usually want some air letting out. Does the GTS have tyre pressure displayed on the dash in PSI? If it's just normal TPMS, I think that alerts you if the pressures are too low, but not if they're too high.
So we should probably start by saying you are in the wrong car. Possibly not the wrong model of car, but the wrong actual car.
If you are basically only using the car for trackdays there’s no added benefit in running a 4.0 GTS @ £85k over a 2.5 GTS @ £60k or even a 981 GT4 @ £70k. Both would do the same job, or better, for less money and with no mods.
Or better still you could go with an "ordinary" 718s for low-mid £40k and add a few alterations to make it more proper on track. At that point you are still more than £20k ahead of your current car and not having to worry as much about if the usage or any mods will ruin the residual value.
In terms of how well the cars can work, with a few basic mods they can be made extremely drivable on track. I’m running almost standard power on a 2.0 but with suspension and brakes etc and it’s capable of 1.54s at Oulton, 1.16s Donny Nat, 1.45 Donny GP etc.
A modded car like that would take a little specialist maintenance but nothing crazy and would still be road usable, especially for the amount of use you are describing.
Regarding other options; yes, a good spec Lotus would work well as Paul has suggested. They can prove a little fragile compared to Porsches but newer ones don’t seem too problematic as trackday toys and they are the obvious lighter alternative.
Instruction, yes, absolutely. Things like trail braking can be essential to overcome the standard-setup traits of a lot of performance road kit and some training should help in whatever you are driving.
If you are basically only using the car for trackdays there’s no added benefit in running a 4.0 GTS @ £85k over a 2.5 GTS @ £60k or even a 981 GT4 @ £70k. Both would do the same job, or better, for less money and with no mods.
Or better still you could go with an "ordinary" 718s for low-mid £40k and add a few alterations to make it more proper on track. At that point you are still more than £20k ahead of your current car and not having to worry as much about if the usage or any mods will ruin the residual value.
In terms of how well the cars can work, with a few basic mods they can be made extremely drivable on track. I’m running almost standard power on a 2.0 but with suspension and brakes etc and it’s capable of 1.54s at Oulton, 1.16s Donny Nat, 1.45 Donny GP etc.
A modded car like that would take a little specialist maintenance but nothing crazy and would still be road usable, especially for the amount of use you are describing.
Regarding other options; yes, a good spec Lotus would work well as Paul has suggested. They can prove a little fragile compared to Porsches but newer ones don’t seem too problematic as trackday toys and they are the obvious lighter alternative.
Instruction, yes, absolutely. Things like trail braking can be essential to overcome the standard-setup traits of a lot of performance road kit and some training should help in whatever you are driving.
samoht said:
On the Exiges, I think the ones with 'Cup' in the name are the most track-focused. Having said that, I reckon any Exige will be lighter and more track-oriented than your car (which is more akin to the Evora in the Lotus range), and I also think some of the 'Cup' difference is in details like which tyre it comes on, which may be irrelevant once the car is second-hand anyway.
You’re right, but that’s also why I suggested a 410. Although the 430 Cup is the most track focussed (and a lot more expensive) the differences are actually very small between the two. The 430 has a different rear wing, a rubber strip stuck to the front splitter, front arch vents, and an extra 20 Bhp. But that’s it really in real terms.
The 410 has the same engine with the chargecooler fitted, it has the ‘cup’ gearbox cooler, the same brakes with the J-hook AP racing discs, the same 3-way adjustable Nitrons with exactly the same spring rates, and the same wheels with Michelin CUP2 tyres fitted as standard from the factory.
If you want a track focussed car that also has air conditioning, cruise control and a stereo, it’s quite hard to beat.
Gassing Station | Track Days | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff