Nurburgring Insurance – Help!
Discussion
I’m planning a trip to the Nurburgring next spring/summer and trying to find some proper insurance as my insurer (Privilege) won’t cover it.
Just had a quote from Competition Car Insurance in Nottingham for £48K of cover at £1069 for 3 days :yikes: with an excess of 10% of sum insured :yikes: :yikes:
Has anybody got any cheaper ideas for getting proper insurance or know of any road insurance companies who definitely cover the Nurburgring?
I’m intending to go on normal public days rather than with a track day company.
Thanks,
TSS
Just had a quote from Competition Car Insurance in Nottingham for £48K of cover at £1069 for 3 days :yikes: with an excess of 10% of sum insured :yikes: :yikes:
Has anybody got any cheaper ideas for getting proper insurance or know of any road insurance companies who definitely cover the Nurburgring?
I’m intending to go on normal public days rather than with a track day company.
Thanks,
TSS
A standard Allianz fully-comp policy for a German registered car covers 'Ring damage (or, should I say, "car damage incurred at the Nurburgring"?). Not sure whether you could obtain that coverage for a UK-registered car, or whether the Allianz UK subsidiary has its own British chicken-shit version that only covers you for driving situations that are risk-free.
Unless your insurance specifically says you are not insured on "derestricted toll roads" or similar then you ARE insured. How could you not be insured to drive on a German public road if your policy does not clearly state that?
If you call your insurance company they will say "no" point blank, your average call centre staff are just not going to understand
There is some more info about it here.
www.nurburgring.org.uk/insurance.html
The more it is discussed, and the more people call and ask there insurers, the quicker we will get to a point that no UK policies will include it.
I fully understand people not wanting to risk their cars BUT, you have a contract with your insurance company and you have the small print....if it does not say you are not insured to drive on the ring then you are!
>> Edited by davyboy on Friday 29th July 17:25
If you call your insurance company they will say "no" point blank, your average call centre staff are just not going to understand
There is some more info about it here.
www.nurburgring.org.uk/insurance.html
The more it is discussed, and the more people call and ask there insurers, the quicker we will get to a point that no UK policies will include it.
I fully understand people not wanting to risk their cars BUT, you have a contract with your insurance company and you have the small print....if it does not say you are not insured to drive on the ring then you are!
>> Edited by davyboy on Friday 29th July 17:25
This has been discussed on PH in the past, but the NS is not literally a "derestricted toll-road" anyhow. Both at Breidscheid and along Dottinger Hohe there are speed limits, and, just as on other public roads, the police at times will measure speed and enforce the law with penalty fines, etc.
My policy documents specifically state I’m not covered for track days. In the small print a “Track Day means the vehicle is being driven on a motor racing track, airfield, de-restricted toll road or at an off road 4x4 event”.
I don’t fancy trying to argue that the Nurburgring is not a motor racing track or a de-restricted toll road, even if it is a public road and as flemke says some parts of it have speed limits.
Also, if the Germans class it as a public road, presumably you need to have proper third party cover or you could get done for driving without insurance if you crash into somebody?
Flemke, thank you for you idea about Allianz, I’ll try that next week. I also spoke to a broker (Academy) this afternoon and they were quite helpful and are seeing if they can find policy which will definitely include the ‘Ring.
It may be possible to find a normal insurance company that doesn’t specifically exclude it, but it’s a matter of finding one that also doesn’t also charge £5K to insure a TVR!
I don’t fancy trying to argue that the Nurburgring is not a motor racing track or a de-restricted toll road, even if it is a public road and as flemke says some parts of it have speed limits.
Also, if the Germans class it as a public road, presumably you need to have proper third party cover or you could get done for driving without insurance if you crash into somebody?
Flemke, thank you for you idea about Allianz, I’ll try that next week. I also spoke to a broker (Academy) this afternoon and they were quite helpful and are seeing if they can find policy which will definitely include the ‘Ring.
It may be possible to find a normal insurance company that doesn’t specifically exclude it, but it’s a matter of finding one that also doesn’t also charge £5K to insure a TVR!
flemke said:
This has been discussed on PH in the past, but the NS is not literally a "derestricted toll-road" anyhow. Both at Breidscheid and along Dottinger Hohe there are speed limits, and, just as on other public roads, the police at times will measure speed and enforce the law with penalty fines, etc.
True. But I'd rather not have to get into that kind of tenuous discussion with an insurance company.
Hence doing VLN instead, and keeping TF for light entertainment.
TSS said:On public days you definitely need third-party. If you're in a shunt with another car, which normally will entail a police report, and you don't have third party you will have a big problem.
My policy documents specifically state I’m not covered for track days. In the small print a “Track Day means the vehicle is being driven on a motor racing track, airfield, de-restricted toll road or at an off road 4x4 event”.
I don’t fancy trying to argue that the Nurburgring is not a motor racing track or a de-restricted toll road, even if it is a public road and as flemke says some parts of it have speed limits.
Also, if the Germans class it as a public road, presumably you need to have proper third party cover or you could get done for driving without insurance if you crash into somebody?
Flemke, thank you for you idea about Allianz, I’ll try that next week. I also spoke to a broker (Academy) this afternoon and they were quite helpful and are seeing if they can find policy which will definitely include the ‘Ring.
It may be possible to find a normal insurance company that doesn’t specifically exclude it, but it’s a matter of finding one that also doesn’t also charge £5K to insure a TVR!
With respect to whether it is a race track: are the streets of Monaco, Pau, Le Mans, Chimay et al race tracks? They're public roads that are at times used for racing.
One does wonder what exactly is the point of saying "derestricted toll road". If they mean the Nordschleife, at least they could have the balls to say so.
TSS said:
My policy documents specifically state I’m not covered for track days. In the small print a... de-restricted toll road ...”.
I think you need to get details of what they mean by de-restricted toll roads. Ask them for a written definition.
They've probably seen it on another companies 'policy' but don't know what it means.
If they mention the NS point out that you understand it isn't de-restricted and see how they answer that.
You did the right thing by reading your policy before talking to them. Too many people phone the insurance company to ask when a quick look at the policy would answer the question. And by phoning the company they are adding to the companys concern.
I’ve just had a conversation with Privilege about their “de-restricted toll road” clause.
The person I spoke to was unable to provide a definition of “de-restricted toll road” and came back with the helpful response: “don’t worry, there aren’t any toll roads in the UK”
I pointed out that there is an M6 toll road and also that there are toll roads in Europe and I may wish to take my car to Europe.
They went away and asked a supervisor and came back and said that the policy covers all European roads if I take out European cover. I decided to give them a little clue and say that I had heard there are toll roads without speed limits in Germany and that it’s foreseeable that I may go to Germany and might drive on such a road. To which the response was “if you’ve taken out cover for Germany you’ll be covered for any roads over there”.
Can anybody confirm if the ‘Ring is an actual proper public road? Or is it a privately owned road (owned by Nürburgring GmbH???) that the public can drive on and is subject to the same laws?
I think I need to get a definition in writing and perhaps confirmation in writing that all German roads are fully covered. I tried asking for a written definition but they just claimed that all calls are recorded so if I have any problems I can ask them to replay the call. My insurance is due for renewal this month so maybe I can twist their arm a bit more when I call up to renew. In the meantime I’m still trying to find a company that definitely covers it without any possible get-out clauses
Also, I’ve noticed another interesting clause in my policy documents:
“If the law of any country in which this Policy operates obliges us to make a payment which we would not otherwise have paid, we reserve the right to recover the amount from you”
This may not be relevant, but on the other hand could it be a get out clause for reclaiming the cost of any 3rd party cover at the ‘Ring? i.e. if I crash into something and the German authorities make Privilege pay for the damage, they then claim they don’t cover the ‘Ring and make me pay them back
The person I spoke to was unable to provide a definition of “de-restricted toll road” and came back with the helpful response: “don’t worry, there aren’t any toll roads in the UK”
I pointed out that there is an M6 toll road and also that there are toll roads in Europe and I may wish to take my car to Europe. They went away and asked a supervisor and came back and said that the policy covers all European roads if I take out European cover. I decided to give them a little clue and say that I had heard there are toll roads without speed limits in Germany and that it’s foreseeable that I may go to Germany and might drive on such a road. To which the response was “if you’ve taken out cover for Germany you’ll be covered for any roads over there”.
Can anybody confirm if the ‘Ring is an actual proper public road? Or is it a privately owned road (owned by Nürburgring GmbH???) that the public can drive on and is subject to the same laws?
I think I need to get a definition in writing and perhaps confirmation in writing that all German roads are fully covered. I tried asking for a written definition but they just claimed that all calls are recorded so if I have any problems I can ask them to replay the call. My insurance is due for renewal this month so maybe I can twist their arm a bit more when I call up to renew. In the meantime I’m still trying to find a company that definitely covers it without any possible get-out clauses
Also, I’ve noticed another interesting clause in my policy documents:
“If the law of any country in which this Policy operates obliges us to make a payment which we would not otherwise have paid, we reserve the right to recover the amount from you”
This may not be relevant, but on the other hand could it be a get out clause for reclaiming the cost of any 3rd party cover at the ‘Ring? i.e. if I crash into something and the German authorities make Privilege pay for the damage, they then claim they don’t cover the ‘Ring and make me pay them back
I can't answer all your questions - perhaps not any - and you may wish to contact someone such as Ben Lovejoy.
What I can say is that the normal public road driving laws apply on the 'Ring during the public sessions.
- The police will sometimes monitor speeds through the restricted sections and will give out tickets.
- Overtaking on the right is strictly forbidden and professional racers who have done thousands of laps on the NS have been taken to court if they have have been observed overtaking (even safely) on the right during a public session.
- You may not drive a car unless its tyres are road-legal and it has a valid registration plate (however, they disallow cars with dealer plates).
- Subject to the noise restriction (which may technically apply on all public roads - not sure), you may drive anything that's road-legal. To wit, there were pictures floating recently around of somebody (a Brit, as it happened) who has a, well, it's a sofa on wheels that's been SVA'd, and that was allowed on the NS for public lapping.
- If you are in a reportable accident (one involving more than one vehicle, or a personal injury) the police must attend, file a report, etc. At that time you are required to produce your ownership and insurance documents, as you would be on any public road, and if you fail to produce them you will have a problem, as you would on any public road.
All the above make the NS sound rather public, and certainly closer to being a public road than to being a race circuit like Brands or Hockenheim, where essentially none of the above applies.
If the insurer has said on the phone that the cover applies to "any roads", surely the NS is a road.
With regard to other claims that the insurer could avoid, if you damage Armco at the NS you are expected to pay for the repair. I don't think that such applies on normal public roads in either Germany or the UK.
>> Edited by flemke on Tuesday 2nd August 15:25
What I can say is that the normal public road driving laws apply on the 'Ring during the public sessions.
- The police will sometimes monitor speeds through the restricted sections and will give out tickets.
- Overtaking on the right is strictly forbidden and professional racers who have done thousands of laps on the NS have been taken to court if they have have been observed overtaking (even safely) on the right during a public session.
- You may not drive a car unless its tyres are road-legal and it has a valid registration plate (however, they disallow cars with dealer plates).
- Subject to the noise restriction (which may technically apply on all public roads - not sure), you may drive anything that's road-legal. To wit, there were pictures floating recently around of somebody (a Brit, as it happened) who has a, well, it's a sofa on wheels that's been SVA'd, and that was allowed on the NS for public lapping.
- If you are in a reportable accident (one involving more than one vehicle, or a personal injury) the police must attend, file a report, etc. At that time you are required to produce your ownership and insurance documents, as you would be on any public road, and if you fail to produce them you will have a problem, as you would on any public road.
All the above make the NS sound rather public, and certainly closer to being a public road than to being a race circuit like Brands or Hockenheim, where essentially none of the above applies.
If the insurer has said on the phone that the cover applies to "any roads", surely the NS is a road.
With regard to other claims that the insurer could avoid, if you damage Armco at the NS you are expected to pay for the repair. I don't think that such applies on normal public roads in either Germany or the UK.
>> Edited by flemke on Tuesday 2nd August 15:25
flemke said:
To wit, there were pictures floating recently around of somebody (a Brit, as it happened) who has a, well, it's a sofa on wheels that's been SVA'd, and that was allowed on the NS for public lapping.
I was told by someone - that in fact it got turned away, but I can't remember why - maybe Jochen knows?
Although I think that the flying saucer did get on (no, I'm not joking).
>> Edited by Joe911 on Tuesday 2nd August 15:56
as davyboy said. if you ask directly they will say no, understandably. the more people ask the more this will become a standard clause. if you're not excluded specifically then you're covered. if you cant afford to take that chance then buy a cheap track car/share in one. there are plenty of people who have shares in e30's, golfs etc kept at the ring specifically for this purpose. you'll have more fun in a car you're not afraid to crash anyway !
Joe911 said:
To wit, there were pictures floating recently around of somebody (a Brit, as it happened) who has a, well, it's a sofa on wheels that's been SVA'd, and that was allowed on the NS for public lapping.
I was told by someone - that in fact it got turned away, but I can't remember why - maybe Jochen knows?
Although I think that the flying saucer did get on (no, I'm not joking).
>> Edited by Joe911 on Tuesday 2nd August 15:56
www.nurburgring.org.uk/loonies.html
So far as insurance is concerned, there is no substitute for telling the truth.
You see, if you cripple a 23 year old breadwinner with 2 small children, you are going to be facing a multi-million pound damages suit, and the insurance company will unleash their £600/hr QCs to wriggle out of paying. They will go over your car, proposal form and accident report with a microscope and your barrack room legalities will be as much protection as wet tissue paper. How do you feel about spending the rest of your life paying off the damages and legal fees?
(And in case you think this is theoretical, some 30 years ago, a friend of mine found herself on the end of a £250K damages suit after an accident. She lost. The insurance company paid.)
So, call your insurer and tell them you're going to the 'Ring. If you have to buy competition insurance, so be it.
You see, if you cripple a 23 year old breadwinner with 2 small children, you are going to be facing a multi-million pound damages suit, and the insurance company will unleash their £600/hr QCs to wriggle out of paying. They will go over your car, proposal form and accident report with a microscope and your barrack room legalities will be as much protection as wet tissue paper. How do you feel about spending the rest of your life paying off the damages and legal fees?
(And in case you think this is theoretical, some 30 years ago, a friend of mine found herself on the end of a £250K damages suit after an accident. She lost. The insurance company paid.)
So, call your insurer and tell them you're going to the 'Ring. If you have to buy competition insurance, so be it.
zumbruk said:
www.nurburgring.org.uk/loonies.html
No, in fact, not them (although, loonies they are).
There was a Q'plated sofa with, I'm told, a V8 engine that turned up at TF this year. I have photo's somewhere.
Joe911 said:
So, call your insurer and tell them you're going to the 'Ring. If you have to buy competition insurance, so be it.
Does "competition insurance" cover you on the Ring when it is open to the public and there is no competition?
Who knows? And that's the point; only your insurer can say "Yea or Nay".
And get it in writing!
zumbruk said:
So far as insurance is concerned, there is no substitute for telling the truth.
You see, if you cripple a 23 year old breadwinner with 2 small children, you are going to be facing a multi-million pound damages suit, and the insurance company will unleash their £600/hr QCs to wriggle out of paying. They will go over your car, proposal form and accident report with a microscope and your barrack room legalities will be as much protection as wet tissue paper. How do you feel about spending the rest of your life paying off the damages and legal fees?
So, call your insurer and tell them you're going to the 'Ring.
There is no way I’m driving anywhere, especially the ‘Ring, without comprehensive insurance, hence my looking into this very seriously before planning a trip there. My phone call today was a “testing the water” exercise. I am certainly not going to consider myself insured on the say so of some call centre agent who doesn’t even know what the M6 toll road is!
If I re-insure with Privilege and go to the ‘Ring I will need to speak to somebody competent there and insist on a definition of “de-restricted toll road” in writing and ensure that the ‘Ring in not excluded. As I said before I’m also looking to find another company which will definitely cover it as I suspect Privilege may well not when it comes to it.
zumbruk said:
If you have to buy competition insurance, so be it.
I got a quote for competition insurance (see my post at the top of this thread) but I don’t think that covers 3rd party risks, so I’d still need to be insured separately against damaging something/somebody else.
francisb said:
as davyboy said. if you ask directly they will say no, understandably. the more people ask the more this will become a standard clause. if you're not excluded specifically then you're covered.
Perhaps, but I want to know for sure that I'm covered. I could decide that that I’m not specifically excluded from the 'Ring on the basis that it’s not a "de restricted toll road" as parts of it have speed limits, but the insurance company may well argue otherwise if it comes to the crunch.
francisb said:
if you cant afford to take that chance then buy a cheap track car/share in one. there are plenty of people who have shares in e30's, golfs etc kept at the ring specifically for this purpose.
A good idea, but too expensive an option for a single 'Ring visit and I really want to drive my car there.
francisb said:
you’ll have more fun in a car you're not afraid to crash anyway!
You'd still need find a company to be insure you for 3rd party risks in case you crashed into somebody else.
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