Concensus on "Vehicle Condition" requirements for a TD!
Discussion
Hi all,
a recent spat on FB with a person I would consider completely ignorant on the responsibility side of things, got me thinking on this issue and I would like to get other people's opinions on the subject.
Firstly, a quick scan through one or two TDO's T's & C's basically states "Your vehicle must comply with road regulations and be able to pass an MOT Test" or words to that effect, in short implying it must be fit for purpose!
What then is the consensus on someone who is aware that their vehicle is compromised and deliberately does not do anything about it yet goes on a track day with a compromised vehicle then refuses to accept error in judgment and goes out of their way to justify his actions are acceptable?
To give some context in this case, the braking system of the car was compromised (boiled fluid or air in the system, so pedal reaching the floor) whilst the owner's view is that the reason for not doing the maintenance is "meh" or words to that effect (e.g. couldn't be bothered), and that he was driving slower and braking earlier to compensate. Yet on the flip side was bragging about having reached his PB on the track and talking about a target lap time he was aiming to reach.
I'm really curious to know what other people's opinions are on arguably ignorant would be "Ralf Schumacher's" mixing up amongst us on track days?
I go out of my way to make sure my car is in the best possible mechanical condition possible, to hopefully maximise my time on track and not ruin it for others too, and see that in general others take this aspect very seriously too. I acknowledge that s
t happens, but bad luck and deliberate actions of ignorance are not comparable in my view, as was then being pointed out to me as a counter agrument.
Hum
a recent spat on FB with a person I would consider completely ignorant on the responsibility side of things, got me thinking on this issue and I would like to get other people's opinions on the subject.
Firstly, a quick scan through one or two TDO's T's & C's basically states "Your vehicle must comply with road regulations and be able to pass an MOT Test" or words to that effect, in short implying it must be fit for purpose!
What then is the consensus on someone who is aware that their vehicle is compromised and deliberately does not do anything about it yet goes on a track day with a compromised vehicle then refuses to accept error in judgment and goes out of their way to justify his actions are acceptable?
To give some context in this case, the braking system of the car was compromised (boiled fluid or air in the system, so pedal reaching the floor) whilst the owner's view is that the reason for not doing the maintenance is "meh" or words to that effect (e.g. couldn't be bothered), and that he was driving slower and braking earlier to compensate. Yet on the flip side was bragging about having reached his PB on the track and talking about a target lap time he was aiming to reach.
I'm really curious to know what other people's opinions are on arguably ignorant would be "Ralf Schumacher's" mixing up amongst us on track days?
I go out of my way to make sure my car is in the best possible mechanical condition possible, to hopefully maximise my time on track and not ruin it for others too, and see that in general others take this aspect very seriously too. I acknowledge that s
t happens, but bad luck and deliberate actions of ignorance are not comparable in my view, as was then being pointed out to me as a counter agrument.Hum
Bit of a cool story bro anecdote, but…
I was once on a TD where I’d spotted a 944, threadbare bucket seat, rusty af, and mismatched tyres of varying tread depths, spun on the first lap.
Then again, same day there was a TCR Leon obviously testing with someone at the pit wall with a clipboard and a stopwatch. They binned it at some point which shut the track for a while.
There’s a lot of ego on track days, fk knows why, there’s no trophy to be won.
I was once on a TD where I’d spotted a 944, threadbare bucket seat, rusty af, and mismatched tyres of varying tread depths, spun on the first lap.
Then again, same day there was a TCR Leon obviously testing with someone at the pit wall with a clipboard and a stopwatch. They binned it at some point which shut the track for a while.
There’s a lot of ego on track days, f
k knows why, there’s no trophy to be won.Humour said:
was bragging about having reached his PB on the track and talking about a target lap time he was aiming to reach.
These people are why I have less energy for trackdays than I did a few years ago.There seems to be a growing trend of people approaching trackdays by doing "builds" and spending half their lives showing off their car, their onboard footage and their laptimes on social media.
It's turned trackdays into a race to see who can take out the most impressive or modified car, rather than a bunch of folks going out for a laugh.
One such instance, on one of the Facebook groups, was the perfect case in point. A chap posted an onboard video up of his most recent day out, with the title "Should I put a big brake kit or coilovers on next?". 30s watching the video told me that he needed to spend more time focusing on the basics of track driving, rather than spend thousands on upgrading a car that was already more capable than him.
Tommo87 said:
Is the guy concerned Dutch, by any chance.
Dont think so, in response to your question.@Dave. I get the ego argument, I also have seen more racecars on TD's causing red flags than anyone else in my experience, but both of those miss the point of contention imo.
Edited by Humour on Wednesday 1st December 02:02
Krikkit said:
Faulty brakes certainly doesn't fulfill that brief for me.
I agree that a track car being thrashed needs to be in as tip top condition as you can, especially brakes.
Although accidents can and do happen, I would be raging if someone like that crashed into and ruined my 10K investment in a dedicated track toy, especially if I found out he shouldn't be out there in the first place due to being in a compromised mechanical condition to start with, and one that could be addressed with 20mins in effort and £20 in parts.
For the record the investment amount isnt the point, I don't care if its a 150K RS3 or a 10K E36, both would mean just as much especially the time invested to get to a certain point if you dont buying your way into a purpose built car but take the time to do it yourself.
The pushback I received from this individual over a few days after I challenged him tells me he doesnt get it and isnt likely to get it until he is at the short end of the stick on one occasion in the future.
Edited by Humour on Wednesday 1st December 02:04
Yep, I'd be raging if someone wrote off even my cheapo Fiesta for the sake of sloppy maintenance, never mind a really snazzy build.
I'd also be absolutely mortified if I was the one who had some kind of failure and took out another car, regardless of whether it was one of those "st happens" moments.
I'd also be absolutely mortified if I was the one who had some kind of failure and took out another car, regardless of whether it was one of those "s
t happens" moments.C70R said:
Humour said:
was bragging about having reached his PB on the track and talking about a target lap time he was aiming to reach.
These people are why I have less energy for trackdays than I did a few years ago.There seems to be a growing trend of people approaching trackdays by doing "builds" and spending half their lives showing off their car, their onboard footage and their laptimes on social media.
It's turned trackdays into a race to see who can take out the most impressive or modified car, rather than a bunch of folks going out for a laugh.
One such instance, on one of the Facebook groups, was the perfect case in point. A chap posted an onboard video up of his most recent day out, with the title "Should I put a big brake kit or coilovers on next?". 30s watching the video told me that he needed to spend more time focusing on the basics of track driving, rather than spend thousands on upgrading a car that was already more capable than him.
Anyway, there was a sea of red flags caused by people going off.
A friend of mine did the same day in his road car, it was his first trackday, which was completely spoilt by people lunging up his inside in corners, as well as the minimal track time.
In answer to the actual topic, I think you're always going to get that type of person on track days, due to their cost and lack of scrutineering. Has anyone ever been turned away because their car was poorly maintained? I've never seen it. My track car looks like absolute garbage but I've never had anyone come over to make sure it's safe (I maintain it very well, it just looks rough.)
It's likely he was exaggerating how bad the brakes are, because some of those trackday Facebook groups seem to enjoy people bleating on about how close their car is to failing, despite the fact they will also lose out of the car does run out of brakes or blow an engine (someone was going on about how he knew his engine was on its last legs before he took it out on track, it then threw a rod and put oil all over the track, why would you admit that?)
TLDR: there's always been people chancing it with poorly maintained cars, social media now allows them to boast about it
l354uge said:
C70R said:
Humour said:
was bragging about having reached his PB on the track and talking about a target lap time he was aiming to reach.
These people are why I have less energy for trackdays than I did a few years ago.There seems to be a growing trend of people approaching trackdays by doing "builds" and spending half their lives showing off their car, their onboard footage and their laptimes on social media.
It's turned trackdays into a race to see who can take out the most impressive or modified car, rather than a bunch of folks going out for a laugh.
One such instance, on one of the Facebook groups, was the perfect case in point. A chap posted an onboard video up of his most recent day out, with the title "Should I put a big brake kit or coilovers on next?". 30s watching the video told me that he needed to spend more time focusing on the basics of track driving, rather than spend thousands on upgrading a car that was already more capable than him.
Anyway, there was a sea of red flags caused by people going off.
A friend of mine did the same day in his road car, it was his first trackday, which was completely spoilt by people lunging up his inside in corners, as well as the minimal track time.
If I were to go by the Facebook groups, that trackday was 50% about being there and enjoying it, and 50% about posting up videos afterwards.
Maybe they're trying to be the next DannyDC2? Even though he seems to moved on from that kind of content into racing and car comparison
There's another group of guys on Instagram who film the three of them doing lift-off oversteer in their hot hatches, it was amusing when I saw one video of them do it but it seems to be the only content they make! but A. How do they not get more black flags? B. What happens when a novice attempts the same but hasn't learnt the cheat code to saving a fwd slide first? (Steer into it, full throttle, release steering when it's back)
Farming social media for likes with content from public days is unlikely to end well
There's another group of guys on Instagram who film the three of them doing lift-off oversteer in their hot hatches, it was amusing when I saw one video of them do it but it seems to be the only content they make! but A. How do they not get more black flags? B. What happens when a novice attempts the same but hasn't learnt the cheat code to saving a fwd slide first? (Steer into it, full throttle, release steering when it's back)
Farming social media for likes with content from public days is unlikely to end well
l354uge said:
This new "track day influencer" thing.....
In answer to the actual topic, I think you're always going to get that type of person on track days, due to their cost and lack of scrutineering. Has anyone ever been turned away because their car was poorly maintained? I've never seen it. My track car looks like absolute garbage but I've never had anyone come over to make sure it's safe (I maintain it very well, it just looks rough.)
It's likely he was exaggerating how bad the brakes are, because some of those trackday Facebook groups seem to enjoy people bleating on about how close their car is to failing, despite the fact they will also lose out of the car does run out of brakes or blow an engine (someone was going on about how he knew his engine was on its last legs before he took it out on track, it then threw a rod and put oil all over the track, why would you admit that?)
I didnt realise a track day influencer is a thing. To me Influencer = u tube advertising billboard for clicks, so I seldom pay any of them any attention. They have nothing to offer that I want to buy into.In answer to the actual topic, I think you're always going to get that type of person on track days, due to their cost and lack of scrutineering. Has anyone ever been turned away because their car was poorly maintained? I've never seen it. My track car looks like absolute garbage but I've never had anyone come over to make sure it's safe (I maintain it very well, it just looks rough.)
It's likely he was exaggerating how bad the brakes are, because some of those trackday Facebook groups seem to enjoy people bleating on about how close their car is to failing, despite the fact they will also lose out of the car does run out of brakes or blow an engine (someone was going on about how he knew his engine was on its last legs before he took it out on track, it then threw a rod and put oil all over the track, why would you admit that?)
You are probably right on that front, although a bit disconcerting, with that said how do you police that with limited resource and time. Mine is a 24yr old shell and tins and it looks its age, scruffy is its charm but underneath its been rebuilt for its intended purpose and despite many many mods, it has not failed us once with a breakdown.
Completely agree that it is idiotic to brag about a known mechanical issue, its nonsensical and I dont get it. Im with the group that would be red faced and feeling guilty knowing Im there on borrowed time, so to speak.
Anyway, this fool has decided to keep pointing other things out to me going on in the feed as a way to...vindicate his actions or something, I've stopped trying to educate his ignorant ass now.
What is the TDO's liability for any crashes caused by vehicles that turn out ot not be 'roadworthy'?
Does the TDO have a duty to check the roadworthiness of attendees, or does the 'disclaimer' absolve them of any liability.
My solution would to be to buy my own insurance for any event where I think it's going to end up at the level of the old Castle Combe 'Fun Days' free-for-all banger racing.
I'd also keep pointing the issues, facebook posts, etc. out to the TDO so that they are made aware of the sort of owner/vehicle that they're allowing on track and get them to either check the vehicle out properly or risk a negligence claim after the fact.
Does the TDO have a duty to check the roadworthiness of attendees, or does the 'disclaimer' absolve them of any liability.
My solution would to be to buy my own insurance for any event where I think it's going to end up at the level of the old Castle Combe 'Fun Days' free-for-all banger racing.
I'd also keep pointing the issues, facebook posts, etc. out to the TDO so that they are made aware of the sort of owner/vehicle that they're allowing on track and get them to either check the vehicle out properly or risk a negligence claim after the fact.
mmm-five said:
What is the TDO's liability for any crashes caused by vehicles that turn out ot not be 'roadworthy'?
Does the TDO have a duty to check the roadworthiness of attendees, or does the 'disclaimer' absolve them of any liability.
The disclaimer & instructions about roadworthiness put the onus squarely on the attendees.Does the TDO have a duty to check the roadworthiness of attendees, or does the 'disclaimer' absolve them of any liability.
E-bmw said:
The disclaimer & instructions about roadworthiness put the onus squarely on the attendees.
This, without any doubt at all. You could try to sue a negligent or reckless attendee but the chance of winning would be negligible.It's the key reason for making sure you choose your track days carefully and watch out for,
- Cheapskate clown in a stripped and modded car who doesn't care if he runs into you.
- Wealthy clown in an expensive car who doesn't care if he runs into you.
E-bmw said:
The disclaimer & instructions about roadworthiness put the onus squarely on the attendees.
Even if they were made aware of a car in dangerous/non-roadworthy condition and did nothing about it and allowed it to continue to take part?Maybe it's a TDO that I'd rather steer clear of in future?
mmm-five said:
Even if they were made aware of a car in dangerous/non-roadworthy condition and did nothing about it and allowed it to continue to take part?
Possibly not, but it sounds a highly unlikely situation. How would they be "made aware" and how would any allegations ever be anything more than one person's word against another? Proof would be incredibly difficult.Same applies with "dangerous driving" on track. It's all a matter of opinion and evidence.
I think you find clowns in all brackets.
At donington early November I had brake failure. One of my pads removed the friction material, possibly sticky pistons, possible pad issue. Brembo weren't bothered.
Anyway, the person I was with was pleased and surprised I called it a day after 15 laps. (Lap 15 was the issue). Even with having offers to change the pads, it wasnt worth the risk.
A clown wouldn't consider this and head back out. More concerned over losing their fee for the day.
At donington early November I had brake failure. One of my pads removed the friction material, possibly sticky pistons, possible pad issue. Brembo weren't bothered.
Anyway, the person I was with was pleased and surprised I called it a day after 15 laps. (Lap 15 was the issue). Even with having offers to change the pads, it wasnt worth the risk.
A clown wouldn't consider this and head back out. More concerned over losing their fee for the day.
sounds like a young punk versus old man argument.
the punk is a throbber of the highest order, however he's going to live for ever so doesn't need to mitigate any risks to him or others, The old man knows the risks being taken and ensures that these are minimised.
You'll have to be happy knowing that in 20 years the throbber will be an old man and share your views.
But I do agree that there should be a standard of preparation maintained. I'm also not convinced that any terms and conditions put in by the TDO will withstand negligence. If a person dies due to someone else's poor ( negligent) preparation, a long and expensive legal battle will ensue, and my money is on the deceased estate winning.
the punk is a throbber of the highest order, however he's going to live for ever so doesn't need to mitigate any risks to him or others, The old man knows the risks being taken and ensures that these are minimised.
You'll have to be happy knowing that in 20 years the throbber will be an old man and share your views.
But I do agree that there should be a standard of preparation maintained. I'm also not convinced that any terms and conditions put in by the TDO will withstand negligence. If a person dies due to someone else's poor ( negligent) preparation, a long and expensive legal battle will ensue, and my money is on the deceased estate winning.
I have been doing track days for 9 years now, and remember all sorts of strict instructions at the briefings about No timing.
It seems I am one of the few who has never video'd himself or timed himself either.
Frankly I am going off track days........but I am getting old.
And I have learnt stuff from yoofs I have chatted to at track days. I now take Copse at Cadwell Park at 105 mph, before I spoke to the Fiesta-driving yoofs I was doing it at 90.
It seems I am one of the few who has never video'd himself or timed himself either.
Frankly I am going off track days........but I am getting old.
And I have learnt stuff from yoofs I have chatted to at track days. I now take Copse at Cadwell Park at 105 mph, before I spoke to the Fiesta-driving yoofs I was doing it at 90.
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