Javelin & Electric Cars
Discussion
I have had a discussion with the director of Javelin, Colin Jebson, over their decision to ban electric cars from their track day events. I asked why they had made that choice when the majority of track day organisers will allow them.
His response was that his marshals and track staff had had insufficient training on dealing with serious accidents involving EVs so they ban them.
I own a Porsche Taycan Turbo S which is a fantastic track day car. This is a summary of the.Porsche safety information for when the emergency services have to deal with an accident involving a Taycan that I have sent to Colin. It demonstrates why the majority of circuits allow EVs to attend their events:-
1.The high-voltage system is automatically deactivated in the case of accidents where airbags and seat belt pretensioners have been triggered. So, in the case of serious accident where these will have been set off, there is no risk to your staff or the emergency services when handling the car from the high voltage battery.
2. In the event of a more minor accident, there are two alternative straightforward methods of disabling the battery if it is felt necessary to do so, one in the front and one in the back of the car. The instructions for this could be carried in the car.
3. In the event of a fire, Porsche recommend the use of water, partly to cool the battery and partly to extinguish the fire. Nothing else.
I feel that the reasoning that Javelin presents for banning EVs is fundamentally flawed and demonstrates a bias against them that is unsustainable as more EVs take to the track.
The simple fact is that EVs are as safe to deal with in an accident situation and do not require specialist marshal training.
His response was that his marshals and track staff had had insufficient training on dealing with serious accidents involving EVs so they ban them.
I own a Porsche Taycan Turbo S which is a fantastic track day car. This is a summary of the.Porsche safety information for when the emergency services have to deal with an accident involving a Taycan that I have sent to Colin. It demonstrates why the majority of circuits allow EVs to attend their events:-
1.The high-voltage system is automatically deactivated in the case of accidents where airbags and seat belt pretensioners have been triggered. So, in the case of serious accident where these will have been set off, there is no risk to your staff or the emergency services when handling the car from the high voltage battery.
2. In the event of a more minor accident, there are two alternative straightforward methods of disabling the battery if it is felt necessary to do so, one in the front and one in the back of the car. The instructions for this could be carried in the car.
3. In the event of a fire, Porsche recommend the use of water, partly to cool the battery and partly to extinguish the fire. Nothing else.
I feel that the reasoning that Javelin presents for banning EVs is fundamentally flawed and demonstrates a bias against them that is unsustainable as more EVs take to the track.
The simple fact is that EVs are as safe to deal with in an accident situation and do not require specialist marshal training.
I don't think they use their own Marshalls either, they are the tracks' Marshalls.
I wonder if there is some sort of liability/insurance angle which he has to consider, but then again the other TDOs are bound to be in the same position.
I think it's a real shame though.
I wonder if there is some sort of liability/insurance angle which he has to consider, but then again the other TDOs are bound to be in the same position.
I think it's a real shame though.
Edited by nickfrog on Tuesday 23 November 09:51
you pays your money, you takes your choice.
If Javelin wont allow EVs, do a trackday with someone who will. Eventually, if the market for EV trackdays does increase, Javelin will realise and maybe change their mind. Personally, i can't ever see electric track cars taking off, unless circuits invest in a suite of fast chargers.
However, Javelin cater towards the cheaper end of the trackday market, most people are still driving 20 year old hatchbacks and BMW saloons.
Personally, i doubt they'll lose any sleep over not allowing EVs
If Javelin wont allow EVs, do a trackday with someone who will. Eventually, if the market for EV trackdays does increase, Javelin will realise and maybe change their mind. Personally, i can't ever see electric track cars taking off, unless circuits invest in a suite of fast chargers.
However, Javelin cater towards the cheaper end of the trackday market, most people are still driving 20 year old hatchbacks and BMW saloons.
Personally, i doubt they'll lose any sleep over not allowing EVs
The other thing is that the information you've given is regarding one particular model of electric car, and electric cars vary in how you deal with them in the event of a fire. I'm not sure it's yet reasonable to expect track marshals to know exactly what to do with different cars.
Apparently, with the Tesla Model S, you have to cut off the battery by cutting into the rear door jamb with a circular saw:
https://jalopnik.com/watch-volunteer-firefighters-...
How many marshals are going to know to do that, or be equipped to do so?
Apparently, with the Tesla Model S, you have to cut off the battery by cutting into the rear door jamb with a circular saw:
https://jalopnik.com/watch-volunteer-firefighters-...
How many marshals are going to know to do that, or be equipped to do so?
OP,
I'm genuinely curious about this.
How many laps do you manage to do using your car on a track day?
Do you only book circuits that have a fast charger nearby so that you can nip out and and top up? If so, how many trips do you make off site during the course of the day?
I'm genuinely curious about this.
How many laps do you manage to do using your car on a track day?
Do you only book circuits that have a fast charger nearby so that you can nip out and and top up? If so, how many trips do you make off site during the course of the day?
Edited by Paul_M3 on Tuesday 23 November 10:29
grahamsimmonds said:
I have had a discussion with the director of Javelin, Colin Jebson, over their decision to ban electric cars from their track day events. I asked why they had made that choice when the majority of track day organisers will allow them.
His response was that his marshals and track staff had had insufficient training on dealing with serious accidents involving EVs so they ban them.
I own a Porsche Taycan Turbo S which is a fantastic track day car. This is a summary of the.Porsche safety information for when the emergency services have to deal with an accident involving a Taycan that I have sent to Colin. It demonstrates why the majority of circuits allow EVs to attend their events:-
1.The high-voltage system is automatically deactivated in the case of accidents where airbags and seat belt pretensioners have been triggered. So, in the case of serious accident where these will have been set off, there is no risk to your staff or the emergency services when handling the car from the high voltage battery.
2. In the event of a more minor accident, there are two alternative straightforward methods of disabling the battery if it is felt necessary to do so, one in the front and one in the back of the car. The instructions for this could be carried in the car.
3. In the event of a fire, Porsche recommend the use of water, partly to cool the battery and partly to extinguish the fire. Nothing else.
I feel that the reasoning that Javelin presents for banning EVs is fundamentally flawed and demonstrates a bias against them that is unsustainable as more EVs take to the track.
The simple fact is that EVs are as safe to deal with in an accident situation and do not require specialist marshal training.
That’s all well and good if the car has a crash, but what if it just breaks down. On track. Is it safe to tow? Who knows?His response was that his marshals and track staff had had insufficient training on dealing with serious accidents involving EVs so they ban them.
I own a Porsche Taycan Turbo S which is a fantastic track day car. This is a summary of the.Porsche safety information for when the emergency services have to deal with an accident involving a Taycan that I have sent to Colin. It demonstrates why the majority of circuits allow EVs to attend their events:-
1.The high-voltage system is automatically deactivated in the case of accidents where airbags and seat belt pretensioners have been triggered. So, in the case of serious accident where these will have been set off, there is no risk to your staff or the emergency services when handling the car from the high voltage battery.
2. In the event of a more minor accident, there are two alternative straightforward methods of disabling the battery if it is felt necessary to do so, one in the front and one in the back of the car. The instructions for this could be carried in the car.
3. In the event of a fire, Porsche recommend the use of water, partly to cool the battery and partly to extinguish the fire. Nothing else.
I feel that the reasoning that Javelin presents for banning EVs is fundamentally flawed and demonstrates a bias against them that is unsustainable as more EVs take to the track.
The simple fact is that EVs are as safe to deal with in an accident situation and do not require specialist marshal training.
grahamsimmonds said:
The simple fact is that EVs are as safe to deal with in an accident situation and do not require specialist marshal training.
Is that why they have to leave them in a skip of water after big accidents/fires?What if the safety features don't work..? What if it is a massive shunt and compromises the batteries..? Suggesting marshalls don't require training to deal with a worst case EV incident is just daft, just because you feel aggrieved that you aren't able to "enjoy" your 5 laps..
Paul_M3 said:
OP,
I'm genuinely curious about this.
How many laps do you manage to do using your car on a track day?
Do you only book circuits that have a fast charger nearby so that you can nip out and and top up? If so, how many trips do you make off site during the course of the day?
Hi thereI'm genuinely curious about this.
How many laps do you manage to do using your car on a track day?
Do you only book circuits that have a fast charger nearby so that you can nip out and and top up? If so, how many trips do you make off site during the course of the day?
Edited by Paul_M3 on Tuesday 23 November 10:29
The Taycan will complete a 20 minute session happily with the battery well within temperature range and with no brake fade. The amount of battery you use is dependent on how hard you push. At my first time at Goodwood last Saturday, I used 11% in the first session whilst my instructor talked me through the circuit. By the end I was using 26%.
In terms of charging, having somewhere close to pop it on charge for short periods is useful. Goodwood has two units opposite the paddock. So after the third session I popped the car on for 20 mins and had a coffee, then went and did the fourth session of the morning. I then charged over lunch for an hour which got it back up to 100% ready for the afternoon. So I did all of the sessions that the normal cars did.
Thruxton has numerous chargers in and around it which made the day easy. Silverstone has the Porsche 350 kW chargers that can fill my car from empty in 20 minutes.
grahamsimmonds said:
Hi there
The Taycan will complete a 20 minute session happily with the battery well within temperature range and with no brake fade. The amount of battery you use is dependent on how hard you push. At my first time at Goodwood last Saturday, I used 11% in the first session whilst my instructor talked me through the circuit. By the end I was using 26%.
In terms of charging, having somewhere close to pop it on charge for short periods is useful. Goodwood has two units opposite the paddock. So after the third session I popped the car on for 20 mins and had a coffee, then went and did the fourth session of the morning. I then charged over lunch for an hour which got it back up to 100% ready for the afternoon. So I did all of the sessions that the normal cars did.
Thruxton has numerous chargers in and around it which made the day easy. Silverstone has the Porsche 350 kW chargers that can fill my car from empty in 20 minutes.
Thank you for that.The Taycan will complete a 20 minute session happily with the battery well within temperature range and with no brake fade. The amount of battery you use is dependent on how hard you push. At my first time at Goodwood last Saturday, I used 11% in the first session whilst my instructor talked me through the circuit. By the end I was using 26%.
In terms of charging, having somewhere close to pop it on charge for short periods is useful. Goodwood has two units opposite the paddock. So after the third session I popped the car on for 20 mins and had a coffee, then went and did the fourth session of the morning. I then charged over lunch for an hour which got it back up to 100% ready for the afternoon. So I did all of the sessions that the normal cars did.
Thruxton has numerous chargers in and around it which made the day easy. Silverstone has the Porsche 350 kW chargers that can fill my car from empty in 20 minutes.
Sounds like it works pretty well without the need to restrict track time any more than you would normally do in an ICE car.
I'm sure lots of circuits will soon be installing fast chargers on site too, so things should only get easier as time goes on.
Jhonno said:
Is that why they have to leave them in a skip of water after big accidents/fires?
What if the safety features don't work..? What if it is a massive shunt and compromises the batteries..? Suggesting marshalls don't require training to deal with a worst case EV incident is just daft, just because you feel aggrieved that you aren't able to "enjoy" your 5 laps..
I have never heard of an EV catching fire as the result of an accident. Of the very few occasions where they have caught fire is whilst they are charging so nowhere near a track. Ultimately it is far safer to have a serious accident in an EV.What if the safety features don't work..? What if it is a massive shunt and compromises the batteries..? Suggesting marshalls don't require training to deal with a worst case EV incident is just daft, just because you feel aggrieved that you aren't able to "enjoy" your 5 laps..
brillomaster said:
you pays your money, you takes your choice.
If Javelin wont allow EVs, do a trackday with someone who will. Eventually, if the market for EV trackdays does increase, Javelin will realise and maybe change their mind. Personally, i can't ever see electric track cars taking off, unless circuits invest in a suite of fast chargers.
However, Javelin cater towards the cheaper end of the trackday market, most people are still driving 20 year old hatchbacks and BMW saloons.
Personally, i doubt they'll lose any sleep over not allowing EVs
I don't mind if Javelin do or do not invite EVs to their events. As you say, most are very welcoming. I was just curious to know if there was any justification for their decision. There isn't.If Javelin wont allow EVs, do a trackday with someone who will. Eventually, if the market for EV trackdays does increase, Javelin will realise and maybe change their mind. Personally, i can't ever see electric track cars taking off, unless circuits invest in a suite of fast chargers.
However, Javelin cater towards the cheaper end of the trackday market, most people are still driving 20 year old hatchbacks and BMW saloons.
Personally, i doubt they'll lose any sleep over not allowing EVs
grahamsimmonds said:
Jhonno said:
Is that why they have to leave them in a skip of water after big accidents/fires?
What if the safety features don't work..? What if it is a massive shunt and compromises the batteries..? Suggesting marshalls don't require training to deal with a worst case EV incident is just daft, just because you feel aggrieved that you aren't able to "enjoy" your 5 laps..
I have never heard of an EV catching fire as the result of an accident. Of the very few occasions where they have caught fire is whilst they are charging so nowhere near a track. Ultimately it is far safer to have a serious accident in an EV.What if the safety features don't work..? What if it is a massive shunt and compromises the batteries..? Suggesting marshalls don't require training to deal with a worst case EV incident is just daft, just because you feel aggrieved that you aren't able to "enjoy" your 5 laps..
https://www.news24.com/wheels/fuel_focus/richard-h...
grahamsimmonds said:
I have never heard of an EV catching fire as the result of an accident. Of the very few occasions where they have caught fire is whilst they are charging so nowhere near a track. Ultimately it is far safer to have a serious accident in an EV.
Google tesla fire, there seems to be quite a few that burst into flames after a crash 
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-49...
Hi
It's probably also to do with the track inspection/licence and the safety kit/requirements that are stipulated as required to accommodate electric cars in events.
For some venues that's going to be very difficult to accommodate, for example:-
One is a HUGE quantity of water available (Noted that water is mentioned by Porsche too in the OP's post) and that is simply not going to be available at most marshals posts..
So somebody has got to fund the availability of the equipment (water bowser on standby?) and it'll not be the smaller more 'cost effective' companies/circuits that'll do it. Bigger circuits used by some of the bigger names and it's more likely that the kit will be on site?
It's a Big issue in club motorsport too, as the requirements aren't going to be cheap to meet (lots of venues are club run), so do all the competitors pay more so that the cost of the extra kit, required to accommodate the first electric cars, is met?
It's probably also to do with the track inspection/licence and the safety kit/requirements that are stipulated as required to accommodate electric cars in events.
For some venues that's going to be very difficult to accommodate, for example:-
One is a HUGE quantity of water available (Noted that water is mentioned by Porsche too in the OP's post) and that is simply not going to be available at most marshals posts..
So somebody has got to fund the availability of the equipment (water bowser on standby?) and it'll not be the smaller more 'cost effective' companies/circuits that'll do it. Bigger circuits used by some of the bigger names and it's more likely that the kit will be on site?
It's a Big issue in club motorsport too, as the requirements aren't going to be cheap to meet (lots of venues are club run), so do all the competitors pay more so that the cost of the extra kit, required to accommodate the first electric cars, is met?
Edited by Jim Spencer on Tuesday 23 November 15:19
jabbalad said:
grahamsimmonds said:
I have never heard of an EV catching fire as the result of an accident. Of the very few occasions where they have caught fire is whilst they are charging so nowhere near a track. Ultimately it is far safer to have a serious accident in an EV.
Google tesla fire, there seems to be quite a few that burst into flames after a crash https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-49...
https://jalopnik.com/high-tesla-driver-crashes-so-...
A Tesla crashed, flinging burning battery cells into several people's houses.
jabbalad said:
Google tesla fire, there seems to be quite a few that burst into flames after a crash
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-49...
OK but a. I am not talking about a Tesla. b. for balance in the US there are a 174,000 normal car fires per year and about 40 EV fires. The EV fires are much more newsworthy, hence why the Daily Fail likes to report on them.https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-49...
grahamsimmonds said:
The simple fact is that EVs are as safe to deal with in an accident situation and do not require specialist marshal training.
Hi - Sorry missed a bit - excuse the truncated Quote..But the last bit of the above is specifically Wrong - They Do. though it came in a year or so ago so a fair few may well have completed it by now.
Jim Spencer said:
Hi
It's probably also to do with the track inspection/licence and the safety kit/requirements that are stipulated as required to accommodate electric cars in events.
For some venues that's going to be very difficult to accommodate, for example:-
One is a HUGE quantity of water available (Noted that water is mentioned by Porsche too in the OP's post) and that is simply not going to be available at most marshals posts..
So somebody has got to fund the availability of the equipment (water bowser on standby?) and it'll not be the smaller more 'cost effective' companies/circuits that'll do it. Bigger circuits used by some of the bigger names and it's more likely that the kit will be on site?
It's a Big issue in club motorsport too, as the requirements aren't going to be cheap to meet (lots of venues are club run), so do all the competitors pay more so that the cost of the extra kit, required to accommodate the first electric cars, is met?
If you were correct about track licenses, EVs would be banned from everywhere. I am only aware of Javelin not allowing them.It's probably also to do with the track inspection/licence and the safety kit/requirements that are stipulated as required to accommodate electric cars in events.
For some venues that's going to be very difficult to accommodate, for example:-
One is a HUGE quantity of water available (Noted that water is mentioned by Porsche too in the OP's post) and that is simply not going to be available at most marshals posts..
So somebody has got to fund the availability of the equipment (water bowser on standby?) and it'll not be the smaller more 'cost effective' companies/circuits that'll do it. Bigger circuits used by some of the bigger names and it's more likely that the kit will be on site?
It's a Big issue in club motorsport too, as the requirements aren't going to be cheap to meet (lots of venues are club run), so do all the competitors pay more so that the cost of the extra kit, required to accommodate the first electric cars, is met?
Edited by Jim Spencer on Tuesday 23 November 15:19
A large part of organising a track day is carrying out a risk assessment before you run the event. If you run a well disciplined event, the risk of a serious accident is minimal. If you then put into the mix that the vast majority of those taking part are internal combustion cars not EVs, that reduces the risk. Add into that, it is highly unlikely that of that minority, they are far less likely to catch fire than an ICE car. The actual risk of having to deal with a EV fire is minute.
Hence why they are welcomed at virtually all venues and events.
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