Dialling in negative camber for TD's
Discussion
Car is a MK1 Skoda Octavia vRS.
I wondered if anyone has changed the camber of the front suspension for TD use?
After 6 TD's, I have worm my tyres pretty much out.
I have severely worn the outer edge through heavy cornering at speed, right on the edge and part vertical face.
Car equipped with Federal R595's and usual suspension mods. I have fitted Wavetrac LSD, Cupra R quick rack, hubs and lower suspension arms. Usual uprated ARB's.
I know there is limited adjustment in the lower swivel joints and am interested to know by how much and what adjustments are beneficial.
I wondered if anyone has changed the camber of the front suspension for TD use?
After 6 TD's, I have worm my tyres pretty much out.
I have severely worn the outer edge through heavy cornering at speed, right on the edge and part vertical face.
Car equipped with Federal R595's and usual suspension mods. I have fitted Wavetrac LSD, Cupra R quick rack, hubs and lower suspension arms. Usual uprated ARB's.
I know there is limited adjustment in the lower swivel joints and am interested to know by how much and what adjustments are beneficial.
Suspension is fairly stiff with larger diameter ARBs.
I am based in the Dorking area in Surrey.
Out of interest, I have a new set of the Accelera track day tyres in the garage which I’ll be putting on shortly and it’ll be interesting to see how these fair but I will make some adjustments to the camber first.
I used to run the front wheels parallel with my TVR which I used on a lot of Track Days just wondering if this set up would work on a front wheel drive car.
I am based in the Dorking area in Surrey.
Out of interest, I have a new set of the Accelera track day tyres in the garage which I’ll be putting on shortly and it’ll be interesting to see how these fair but I will make some adjustments to the camber first.
I used to run the front wheels parallel with my TVR which I used on a lot of Track Days just wondering if this set up would work on a front wheel drive car.
phazed said:
Suspension is fairly stiff with larger diameter ARBs.
I am based in the Dorking area in Surrey.
Out of interest, I have a new set of the Accelera track day tyres in the garage which I’ll be putting on shortly and it’ll be interesting to see how these fair but I will make some adjustments to the camber first.
I used to run the front wheels parallel with my TVR which I used on a lot of Track Days just wondering if this set up would work on a front wheel drive car.
I dont actually have any ARBs at all, and my spring rates are 850lbs inch front and 1300lbs rear. I am based in the Dorking area in Surrey.
Out of interest, I have a new set of the Accelera track day tyres in the garage which I’ll be putting on shortly and it’ll be interesting to see how these fair but I will make some adjustments to the camber first.
I used to run the front wheels parallel with my TVR which I used on a lot of Track Days just wondering if this set up would work on a front wheel drive car.
It may be a trek for you, but Northampton Motorsport set my car up, its solid
If you are talking about "dialling" some in for the day & then removing it, that isn't really feasible unless you have an alignment machine available as you won't actually know where it is at any point in time.
Probably better to find a compromise setting that reduces the wear on the track without going too far for the road.
On my previous TD car I had 3.5 degrees front 1.5 rear but that was for TD use & driving too/from only.
My current car is at 1.5 front 0.5 rear which (for me) is a good compromise that works for both without limiting the other.
Probably better to find a compromise setting that reduces the wear on the track without going too far for the road.
On my previous TD car I had 3.5 degrees front 1.5 rear but that was for TD use & driving too/from only.
My current car is at 1.5 front 0.5 rear which (for me) is a good compromise that works for both without limiting the other.
I’m sure you can achieve better but from what I recall, I used to get about 2/3 weekends at the ring out of my R26.R on the front R888s.
If we tacked on a day at Spa then less!
I think in a relatively heavy front engine/driver six track days is pretty good.
You might get the car driving better and wearing more evenly but probably not wearing much less.
There’s a lot of variables too, are you driving to the cars limitations or bullying it into your driving style? If the car is used mainly for track (as mine was) then a good geo by someone who knows the platform would be money well spent but don’t forget some tuition to have it explained and to learn how to get the best out of the new set up.
If we tacked on a day at Spa then less!
I think in a relatively heavy front engine/driver six track days is pretty good.
You might get the car driving better and wearing more evenly but probably not wearing much less.
There’s a lot of variables too, are you driving to the cars limitations or bullying it into your driving style? If the car is used mainly for track (as mine was) then a good geo by someone who knows the platform would be money well spent but don’t forget some tuition to have it explained and to learn how to get the best out of the new set up.
Not too bothered about the wear. My point was that I was concerned about the wear on the outer front edges of the tyres. Thankfully these have much stiffer sidewalls than road tyres. I can imagine road tyres coming off the rims!
if that is, "normal" then I will experiment with a little neg camber.
As for temperature, I'm sure I have seen over 50 degrees on the fronts.
Maybe I am driving too aggressively on the corners. FWD, an LSD and pushing hard through the corners is quite addictive. I realise I am pushing much harder than on my first TD with this car as it is so much fun!
As for tuition, probably not a bad idea as this is the first FWD car that I have tracked. I have done a shed load of TD's and a few sprints in TVR's and a few in my Boxster and it is different.
I am thoroughly enjoying the new experience and it is a bit of a learning curve.
If/when I do the camber, my thoughts are to stripping out the car but the thought atm for such a nice car gives me the shivers!
if that is, "normal" then I will experiment with a little neg camber.
As for temperature, I'm sure I have seen over 50 degrees on the fronts.
Maybe I am driving too aggressively on the corners. FWD, an LSD and pushing hard through the corners is quite addictive. I realise I am pushing much harder than on my first TD with this car as it is so much fun!
As for tuition, probably not a bad idea as this is the first FWD car that I have tracked. I have done a shed load of TD's and a few sprints in TVR's and a few in my Boxster and it is different.
I am thoroughly enjoying the new experience and it is a bit of a learning curve.
If/when I do the camber, my thoughts are to stripping out the car but the thought atm for such a nice car gives me the shivers!
phazed said:
Suspension is fairly stiff with larger diameter ARBs.
Yes, but what spring rates? On cars I've had the stock road spring might be say 180/200lbs, a normal sporty coilover at say 400, but hardcore tracking on stickies needs a 3rd more again, so say 650 lbs area & folk will run 800 or 1000 then you finally stop hammering that outer edge.
No idea of spring rates. The previous owner had them fitted. No suspension on the, "to do" list Existing seems to be cheap £500 AP set-up.
I get your point about stiffer springs. These are much stiffer springs than standard but by how much....?
Just had a basic calculation of my existing camber angle.
Car is on a level garage floor. using a level and a ruler and using an angle calculator on the web, (my maths O level was sooooo long ago!).
I have 2.42 degrees of Neg camber which is good, (both sides worked out the same).
I have a little adjustment in the lower arms so I think I will increase that to 3,5 degrees.
Going back to Monday"s TD. I started off with 30psi in the fronts. After some hot laps, pressure rose to 37/38 psi. I knocked that back to 32PSI hot.
Do you think that was too low? Thinking the stiff side walls may have wanted more......
I get your point about stiffer springs. These are much stiffer springs than standard but by how much....?
Just had a basic calculation of my existing camber angle.
Car is on a level garage floor. using a level and a ruler and using an angle calculator on the web, (my maths O level was sooooo long ago!).
I have 2.42 degrees of Neg camber which is good, (both sides worked out the same).
I have a little adjustment in the lower arms so I think I will increase that to 3,5 degrees.
Going back to Monday"s TD. I started off with 30psi in the fronts. After some hot laps, pressure rose to 37/38 psi. I knocked that back to 32PSI hot.
Do you think that was too low? Thinking the stiff side walls may have wanted more......
Regarding springs and dampers, beware of going for a too high spring rate on budget coilovers, you will find that the damping isn't up to the job and the car will bounce through the corners. If you want to run a stiffer car then you'll need coilovers with heavier damping and a good range of adjustment.
2.5 to 3.5 of negative front camber should be more than enough for most people with track cars. Bear in mind that by adjusting camber at the track with adjustable top mounts you will need to reset the toe as well. When you adjust one thing it messes with the others!
Also consider tyre pressures as you've previously mentioned. 30-35 psi is normally in 'the window', you'll have to play around on the trackdays to find what suits you. Measuring tyre temps will help with this.
Getting a professional setup and advise will always help. Try googling something like track car setup UK and hopefully you'll find a company that can be of assistance
2.5 to 3.5 of negative front camber should be more than enough for most people with track cars. Bear in mind that by adjusting camber at the track with adjustable top mounts you will need to reset the toe as well. When you adjust one thing it messes with the others!
Also consider tyre pressures as you've previously mentioned. 30-35 psi is normally in 'the window', you'll have to play around on the trackdays to find what suits you. Measuring tyre temps will help with this.
Getting a professional setup and advise will always help. Try googling something like track car setup UK and hopefully you'll find a company that can be of assistance
phazed said:
?
Just had a basic calculation of my existing camber angle.
Car is on a level garage floor. using a level and a ruler and using an angle calculator on the web, (my maths O level was sooooo long ago!).
I have 2.42 degrees of Neg camber which is good, (both sides worked out the same).
I have a little adjustment in the lower arms so I think I will increase that to 3,5 degrees.
......
That's all bJust had a basic calculation of my existing camber angle.
Car is on a level garage floor. using a level and a ruler and using an angle calculator on the web, (my maths O level was sooooo long ago!).
I have 2.42 degrees of Neg camber which is good, (both sides worked out the same).
I have a little adjustment in the lower arms so I think I will increase that to 3,5 degrees.
......
ks!Just changed all 4 tyres for some Acellera track biased tyres, (a good thing).
Thought that I would fiddle with the camber and see how much adjustment I have left in the lower ball joints.
Not much adjustment left so I tapped the joint over to max, measured and calculated and blow me sideways, it was 1.76 deg of neg camber!
I was using a different level so checked the original level that gave 2.42 deg and the level was out, (a bad thing!)!!!
Oh well. Think I'll investigate some adjustable top mounts....
On the plus side, the tyre wear across the tread is fairly even, just more acute on the outer edges as described before......
I wonder if driving style will help. You might well be used to trail braking with the Trev, and the Boxster definitely needs trail braking to get the front turned in, whereas maybe for a FWD car it will simply put too much load through the outside front tyre (and its outer edge).
Without going to crazy spring rate/ARB/camber, perhaps getting off the brakes earlier in the Skoda will help the car to be more balanced through the corners and even out the tyre wear. Although if you're already getting 6 days out of a set of front tyres you might be doing a good job of that already.
Without going to crazy spring rate/ARB/camber, perhaps getting off the brakes earlier in the Skoda will help the car to be more balanced through the corners and even out the tyre wear. Although if you're already getting 6 days out of a set of front tyres you might be doing a good job of that already.
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