Track day organisers

[MrC986]

Given the increasing big brother policing of posts, I don't want to name/shame as it'll see this post closed down quicker than a discussion about emerging online auction services for cars (& would appreciate others refrain from the same) However, is anyone else noticing some TDOs seem to becoming very lax in how they are policing the "general track days" by allowing racing teams to arrive en-mass & generally drive as if it is qualifying for their respective race series?!

I was at a TD yesterday where competition cars were taking the track limit markers out without any apparent concern (even though the TDO says the boss doesn't like his grass cut by customers etc. ), overtaking 3 abreast & yet when attendees complain the TDO seems ambivalent to such driver's behaviour. We also had 9 red flags which I think is a record for a dry day I've attended during the summer months although fortunately we had no collisions miraculously.

In case anyone says "they're not all like that", I'll offer a balanced observation that at least one of the smaller circuits seems to have a more sensible/customer focused approach where "2 black flags & you're off home".

[Paul_M3]

Donington park?

I don’t think I finished a session of my own accord in the morning. It was always because a red flag had come out again.

[MrC986]

Paul_M3 said:

Donington park?

I don’t think I finished a session of my own accord in the morning. It was always because a red flag had come out again.

As I said, I’ll not name the TDO etc. as I know the “fun police” will delete the comments etc. although this type of event needs a careful “airing”.

I’ve done quite a lot of track days including one at Spa, & I've decided that the smaller tracks seem more eager to maintain their reputation & driving standards. When one of the TDOs walks past in the paddock at the start of the day & infers you might be slightly nuts taking your well looked after E46 Compact on track, I think it’s an indicator you might be in for some problems. At sign-on when they’re then making extra effort to warn people about overtaking through a certain series of bends (after having a big “shunt” the day before), it should have sounded very loud alarm bells.

I’m surprised someone of the race car drivers didn’t get more than they expected in the pits when they were confronted (on more than one occasion). The TDOs need to reflect on how they’re handling the events & to improve....I working on some customer feedback (as are my friends) & if you feel the same, I’d encourage you to fill their in box with your feedback

Edited by MrC986 on Friday 27th August 07:57

[Paul_M3]

Where I was at (which may or may not have been the same place) one of the staff walked through my garage in the morning and said something along the lines of ‘You’re in a fairly fast car. Just to warn you that we’re going to be very strict with black flags for poor driving today as we had an ‘incident’ yesterday’

It thought that it seemed strange that they went to the trouble of warning people, and then seemed to just let people do what they want.

A guy in a red/orange colour MX5 had a big argument with the people in the garage next to me over something that happened on track.

I think I must have been fortunate in that nobody personally overtook me at any time by diving down the inside when I wasn’t expecting it or anything like that.

[nickfrog]

OP, was the TDO also the circuit owner?

[Paul_M3]

nickfrog said:

OP, was the TDO also the circuit owner?

I think the OP is worried about the naming a shaming rules, but I'm not sure discussing how strictly a TDO acts falls under that rule. I've seen plenty of discussions on here about track days with incidents and which of the companies are more lenient.

So yes, the TDO was the circuit owner.

[nickfrog]

That's fair enough Paul. The issue highlighted seems to be less prevalent (but not entirely absent) with the third party TDO I use, Javelin.

[Paul_M3]

I don't know whether it's actually more circuit dependant than TDO dependant.

My local track is Snetterton, and pretty much all of the days I've done there have been run by MSV. I've seen hardly any issues there, with people being very well behaved inn general.

Although that may well be because Snetterton is a long track with plenty of 'safe' overtaking places so people don't need to wait long to be let past.

The Donington day in question did seem particularly busy, with a lot of fast cars there.

[1781cc]

I think that MSV are the most organised off all the UK TDOs that I have experienced, and you'd expect so given they host races at their own circuits.

I was at Bedford Autodrome in July and the TDO (Not MSV I hasten to add) had 116 cars registered on an open pitlane format. The pits looked like half the crowd from the British GP was in attendance, it was a joke avoiding cars and people that day.

Thankfully Bedford doesn't attract race teams given that its not an active circuit, but I've had my fair share of close encounters with high end machinery at Silverstone and Donnington. I always let faster cars through, whatever they are, but some just take liberties, diving into hairpins, weaving around and sitting inches from your bumper.

My only consolation is that if we crash, its going to cost me a hell of a lot less to replace my banger than a high end carbon equipped race car - you'd think they'd be more concerned about being on track with us numpties but...

[Nurburgsingh]

1781cc said:

I think that MSV are the most organised off all the UK
My only consolation is that if we crash, its going to cost me a hell of a lot less to replace my banger than a high end carbon equipped race car - you'd think they'd be more concerned about being on track with us numpties but...

It’s usually the “all the gear, no idea” lot that turn up to those days so they can go home and tell their hardly interested trophy wife that they were the fastest person there and he blew the doors of everyone.

[foxsasha]

I complained about race Caterhams driving like they were racing at a track day at an MSV day at Brands. An MSV guy in charge went down the pit lane and bked every Caterham driver. They were more restrained afterwards.

Did you complain?

[MrC986]

Yes, our group complained both to the TDO & also to the some of the muppets driving the race cars - the race car drivers just got out & wondered off to their large race trucks. One of the race cars was also IMO speeding repeatedly in the pit lane and almost appeared to be bedding in sets of tyres out on track i.e. out for just one lap and then back in again & swapping tyres over continually, so generally messing about in the pit lane - it was clear it wasn’t a normal track day for them as they had about 4 sets of wheels all laid out & their lap-tops all set up as well as were visibly timing from the pit wall.

The TDO said after lunch (as he was passing our garage) that a number of the race cars were on their last warning, but they continued with their errant ways & a certain SEAT race car almost wiped out of the track cars in our group

[Rob_R]

This post resonates with me quite a lot.

I also drove Donington recently. And whilst I still had a great time, the fact that there were a lot of race teams there did blunt my enjoyment somewhat. I also drove Bedford back in July and had a much better time as it was just road cars in attendance.

I find that race cars with slicks prepared by full-on race teams do not mix well with road cars at all. I have done a few track days this year and the ones I enjoyed the least were the ones where race teams were present.

Having to get out of people's way every 30 seconds gets a little bit tiresome at times. I think there should be specific days for race teams, I don't really think it's appropriate to have them mixing with road cars. Or attendees should be made explicitly aware that they will be sharing the track with race teams.

The purpose of a track day, for me, is that people are there to enjoy their cars in the safe, friendly environment.

I think what's important going forward is for us to vote with our feet. If you have used a TDO in the past that allows race teams and you didn't enjoy your track time as a result then just don't use them again.

[nickfrog]

Rob_R said:

I think there should be specific days for race teams, .

There are. Test days, but they are more expensive...

[Steve H]

Having worked in the industry for some years I hope it’s ok to add these thoughts, in no particular order.

Different circuits definitely do have different issues with driving standards. They attract different drivers and by their nature can make certain overtaking breaches more likely/common.

Different TDOs will also have different approaches. The ones that run the most consistent staffing will probably have the most consistent enforcement.

Race cars are not the problem. Sometimes, race drivers are.

No TDO likes throwing people off a day. Sometimes it’s necessary but this is a last resort, quite rightly.

Nobody likes briefings, lots of yawning, heard all the jokes before, makes it harder to get the day going on time etc. But for driving standards and enforcement throughout the day, my view is that they were better than online briefings.

[CABC]

Steve H said:

Nobody likes briefings, lots of yawning, heard all the jokes before, makes it harder to get the day going on time etc. But for driving standards and enforcement throughout the day, my view is that they were better than online briefings.

Steve, surely briefings are irrelevant to this issue? all the parties involved here, from race teams to regular trackdayers, know the rules well enough. the issue is simply one of enforcement. and the driver is economics, as race teams are regulars. The solution is simple, if the motivation was there.

the insulting part is sitting through pointless briefings.

[Paul_M3]

CABC said:

Steve H said:

Nobody likes briefings, lots of yawning, heard all the jokes before, makes it harder to get the day going on time etc. But for driving standards and enforcement throughout the day, my view is that they were better than online briefings.

Steve, surely briefings are irrelevant to this issue? all the parties involved here, from race teams to regular trackdayers, know the rules well enough. the issue is simply one of enforcement. and the driver is economics, as race teams are regulars. The solution is simple, if the motivation was there.

the insulting part is sitting through pointless briefings.

Exactly right CABC.

It's certainly not that these people are unaware of the rules, it's that they are actively choosing to break them.

I think race drivers should be treated more harshly than normal drivers. If somebody is new to tracks days in a normal road car they might make a mistake or two. Give them a chance.

When a racing driver in a full on touring car is diving inside somebody on the brakes, they know EXACTLY what they are doing.

Let's face it, they're obviously there to test. I'm assuming that if they're driving around at 7/10ths always having to lift off several times a lap then its pointless to them.

[Steve H]

Paul_M3 said:

CABC said:

Steve H said:

Nobody likes briefings, lots of yawning, heard all the jokes before, makes it harder to get the day going on time etc. But for driving standards and enforcement throughout the day, my view is that they were better than online briefings.

Steve, surely briefings are irrelevant to this issue? all the parties involved here, from race teams to regular trackdayers, know the rules well enough. the issue is simply one of enforcement. and the driver is economics, as race teams are regulars. The solution is simple, if the motivation was there.

the insulting part is sitting through pointless briefings.

Exactly right CABC.

It's certainly not that these people are unaware of the rules, it's that they are actively choosing to break them.

I think race drivers should be treated more harshly than normal drivers. If somebody is new to tracks days in a normal road car they might make a mistake or two. Give them a chance.

When a racing driver in a full on touring car is diving inside somebody on the brakes, they know EXACTLY what they are doing.

Let's face it, they're obviously there to test. I'm assuming that if they're driving around at 7/10ths always having to lift off several times a lap then its pointless to them.

You seem to be concentrating on how people should know how to behave rather than how they think they can get away with behaving and how TDO can persuade them to behave, which is the subject of the thread.

If I’m briefing a day where there is clearly a large number of racers I can make it clear what we expect of them and what will happen if they don’t play properly. It does make a difference to how they drive on the day, and to how proactively any problems can then be dealt with by the TDO.

I know it’s an unpopular view amongst both drivers and organisers because briefings can be a chore but whether you feel insulted by them or not they can help the running of the day.

[MrC986]

Steve H said:

You seem to be concentrating on how people should know how to behave rather than how they think they can get away with behaving and how TDO can persuade them to behave, which is the subject of the thread.

If I’m briefing a day where there is clearly a large number of racers I can make it clear what we expect of them and what will happen if they don’t play properly. It does make a difference to how they drive on the day, and to how proactively any problems can then be dealt with by the TDO.

I know it’s an unpopular view amongst both drivers and organisers because briefings can be a chore but whether you feel insulted by them or not they can help the running of the day.

I think that the online briefing method TDOs are currently using might be partly to blame as the TDO can’t give the “head master” type lecture that’s clearly needed. I was also disappointed that the marshalls on Wednesday weren’t visibly controlling the number of cars on the track at any one time & how they are released, with several instances of cars entering the main straight/braking zone with cars already on track having to take action to avoid them (which is something I’ve not seen much before). As others have agreed, the smaller circuits seem to generally be better managed unless it is one of the third party TDOs controlling the day who tend to run things more tightly/listen to their customers more when there are driving standards issues. I can see why there are instances now of groups of people getting together to privately rent a track so that they can control who/how they drive etc.

[anonymous-user]

If you’re turning up in a radical with a support team to test et ups etc, you’re not going to pay any attention to the briefing irrespective of whether it’s online, by the TDO in person, performed by a barbershop quartet or Elvis himself….

I’d actively seek out track days with no race cars ruling, I saw one recently where they said if you have an external ignition cut off, you’re not welcome. We need more of that sort of thing. You can compete in sprints and hillclimbs against a clock without one so you don’t need one on a track day.