Time between 1st and 2nd track car

[Z4MCSL]

So ive done about 5 trackdays so far (ever) and have 3 more booked for my little clio 182


Ive just bought some new OZ Ultralegerras, a steering wheel and various other bits and am talking to mark fisher about a cage


But I keep having this desire to get a 197 or a 200 - ideally Liquid Yellow as I have heard that makes you faster on track, as well as with an R26 engine conversion.

But is that mad to switch track car so early. Now I feel like I need to work this out before investing in a cage

Or even half tempted to have 2 track cars?!

[motorhole]

I've had the same track car since 2008....

Okay, it's not been on the road for a lot of that. But I must have done best part of 30 or so trackdays in it, more frequently since I refreshed it in 2018.

But whatever you feel the urge for I guess! From a financial standpoint, I understand the feeling that if you're dropping money on it you want to get some use out of it. But tbh, the itch to at least try something new never goes away. I just keep coming back to the maths of what else would I get for what I'm willing to spend that'll do what I want? In that little equation, Clio 182s, MX5s and EP3s are hard to beat which is why they are so popular

[Xcore]

If you want a 197/200 get one. Life’s too short.

[Jamescrs]

Currently on my third, I guess i've probably changed track cars every 18 months since I got into it, I like changing cars as I never invest big money into any of them, my current R53 mini won't stand me at more than £2.5k including purchase price. That said I was recently tempted to change again but I think i'll be lucky to do more than 3 track days this year so i've decided i'm better off keeping what I have.

I was tempted by a nice Clio 197 for sale at a decent price too.

[bigothunter]

Consider going RWD. Once mastered, RWD is more rewarding so returning to FWD might be difficult.

[anonymous-user]

Is going from a Clio to a Clio really going to be worth it? Unless you need the car for other things, I’d strip out the 182 to death, bucket seat and cage and you’re not far off the same power to weight as 197.

[1781cc]

I’ve not got a clio, but I started tracking my TT in 2015 and see no reason to change it, I looked for other cars for a while but decided to concentrate on evolution, both with the car and also with my driving.

I’m now over 300kg lighter than stock and have upgraded everything along the way, suspension, cage, etc, still only 270bhp at the moment but getting the chassis right first and the last pieces are on their way before I tackle power. (In this case AP Racing 6 pot BTCC brakes and 18x9.5J 25/64/18 slicks are awaiting delivery)

End of the year will see me go G25-550 and all supporting mods with a built engine (so looking at around 480-500bhp)

Long winded reply, but just illustrating that whatever platform you chose you can evolve it over time, I guarantee if you swap you’ll also still be chasing more power, better grip, better handling and if you like the clio, settle in and enjoy the development path, you can create something fun and unique with it.

[bigothunter]

1781cc said:

I’ve not got a clio, but I started tracking my TT in 2015 and see no reason to change it, I looked for other cars for a while but decided to concentrate on evolution, both with the car and also with my driving.

I’m now over 300kg lighter than stock and have upgraded everything along the way, suspension, cage, etc, still only 270bhp at the moment but getting the chassis right first and the last pieces are on their way before I tackle power. (In this case AP Racing 6 pot BTCC brakes and 18x9.5J 25/64/18 slicks are awaiting delivery).

300kg weight reduction is remarkable. Could you advise how this was achieved please?

[osdecar]

Z4MCSL said:

So ive done about 5 trackdays so far (ever) and have 3 more booked for my little clio 182


Ive just bought some new OZ Ultralegerras, a steering wheel and various other bits and am talking to mark fisher about a cage


But I keep having this desire to get a 197 or a 200 - ideally Liquid Yellow as I have heard that makes you faster on track, as well as with an R26 engine conversion.

But is that mad to switch track car so early. Now I feel like I need to work this out before investing in a cage

Or even half tempted to have 2 track cars?!

I started with a written-off 120i, and after 3 trackdays I decided it was too underpowered and moved to a 330i.

Three years have passed since and I haven't had the urge to change car again. If you have the opportunity, try and test the car you're after, and if it feels like the right decision, go for it.

It would be much better than pouring money into the wrong car just to discover that it never really fulfills you.

[brillomaster]

nothing wrong with switching cars early. what is madness is pouring a load of money into a car that you dont seem to like that much.

Personally, id do the three days you have booked in the 182 as is, then reassess what you want from a track car.

Also, i dont personally see the point in swapping a 182 for a 197 - fundamentally, they're still the same car, one isnt going to be that noticeably different to the other. but that might just be my aversion to FWD.

when i started out it was a ratty old E36 328i. that did 12 trackdays, then we swapped to an E46 330ci. that did 6 trackdays before blowing up - then after that two E46 328is... then only after all of them did i decide to get something more suited to sporty driving and got an E85 Z4 3.0.

maybe you need a stint in a mazda MX5 - that'll make you realise that RWD is indeed the way forward, but also that you'll desperately need more power

[bigothunter]

brillomaster said:

maybe you need a stint in a mazda MX5 - that'll make you realise that RWD is indeed the way forward, but also that you'll desperately need more power

Driving a low powered car will improve your braking and cornering skills when attempting to keep up with the powerful brigade. Can be very satisfying to watch them disappear down the straights, only to catch them again in the bends

[Z4MCSL]

thanks for the replies

For context if I go from 182 to 197 ill be getting a 197 with the 2.0T from the R26 installed so that goes form 182hp to at least 230/240hp but easily beyond 300hp with injectors, intercooler map etc.

The 197 is a lot heavier, 1240 stock vs 1090 for the 182, my 182 is currently very stripped down and less than a ton so good power to weight, certainly better than a stock 197. But with the engine conversion in the 197 that negates that point.

I also have heard a few things about the significant increase in rigidity of the roof in a 197 such that I have been told the decision whether or not to get a cage is a more difficult one with a 197 whereas with a 182 you really should get one if you are going to start tracking it a lot - I don't know if that is accurate but it was Mark Fish Motorsport who mentioned this to me and from what I have read they seem to know their stuff

Also I'm very childish and I like the idea of having a 270hp+ clio on the motorway.

[LennyM1984]

If you are able to extract every ounce of performance from your current car, change it. If not, keep it unitl you can and then go for the next big step up.

If of course, you just fancy a change for the sake of vanity/scratching an itch (which is a totally acceptable reason to change a car) then change it and don't worry too much about trying to rationalise it.

[fred bloggs]

Don't bother with a roll cage, unless you are racing, or planning on doing movie stunts.

[bigothunter]

fred bloggs said:

Don't bother with a roll cage, unless you are racing, or planning on doing movie stunts.

That's a bold statement. I've rolled twice - racing at Snetterton when it saved my head and on a trackday when it saved the bodyshell

[braddo]

bigothunter said:

That's a bold statement. I've rolled twice - racing at Snetterton when it saved my head and on a trackday when it saved the bodyshell

Blimey - don’t hear of rolled cars on track days often. What happened?

To the OP,by all means change car if you fancy, but I bet you will be surprised how much quicker your current car can go if you get some expert tuition.

[bigothunter]

braddo said:

Blimey - don’t hear of rolled cars on track days often. What happened?

Braked too late from around 100mph going into a chicane on an airfield event, spun and then went sideways onto wet grass where the car dug in and rolled from about 20mph. Full cage saved A-pillar being deformed which usually writes off the bodyshell.

TDO revealed that an MX5 with standard roll hoops had rolled into soft sand. Hoops sank into the sand until the car rested on its boot lid. Driver's neck was severely contorted and they thought he was dead but fortunately he survived.

[1781cc]

bigothunter said:

1781cc said:

I’ve not got a clio, but I started tracking my TT in 2015 and see no reason to change it, I looked for other cars for a while but decided to concentrate on evolution, both with the car and also with my driving.

I’m now over 300kg lighter than stock and have upgraded everything along the way, suspension, cage, etc, still only 270bhp at the moment but getting the chassis right first and the last pieces are on their way before I tackle power. (In this case AP Racing 6 pot BTCC brakes and 18x9.5J 25/64/18 slicks are awaiting delivery).

300kg weight reduction is remarkable. Could you advise how this was achieved please?

So, TTs are fat and heavy from the factory, surprisingly so! Over the time I’ve had it done the obvious things such as rip out seats, runners, all plastic trim, stereo, speakers, etc, but I’ve also done some more extreme things like removing the dash, and trimming back the supports and dash itself, stripping the loom, removing all electrics bar essential engine/running stuff (so windows, central locking, comfort control unit, etc), removed main fan, hvac system (has a small race heater for delisting), stripped the hinges, latch, second skin from the bonnet, all undertray, arch liners, brake guards, removed both anti roll bars, rear hatch is stripped and Lexan window, cornerweight gone, spot weld drill removal of all redundant brackets, carbon canister, air con pipe work, air box, SAI, N247, etc, moved to FMIC and ditched both SMICs and crossover pipe, fixed windows and gutted frames, abs flat door cards, lithium battery, lighter wheels, steering wheel, all airbags and ecu, passenger seat, and tons of other stuff I can’t remember, it’s good considering some weight has gone back in (half cage, gaz golds, seat and subframe, harnesses, etc

I ran a thread here for ages but all that photobucket nonsense a few years back killed the pics: https://www.ttforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25...

Then moved the MK1 TT Track car group to continue progress, if you have a TT or interested I can invite you to the group

This is it now

[bigothunter]

1781cc said:

Then moved the MK1 TT Track car group to continue progress, if you have a TT or interested I can invite you to the group

This is it now

Thanks for the very detailed account. We build race cars so I'm always keen to discover opportunities for weight reduction. However our base cars are older, carry less "junk" so present less opportunity.

Certainly answers why some modern fairly innocuous but stripped-out track cars have so much performance.

Edited by bigothunter on Saturday 29th May 15:59

[1781cc]

That’s interesting, any build threads I can read? I’m always interested in saving weight as well, it becomes obsessive and you have to think creatively about where and what to take out, and how to replace the items removed if needed

I weigh everything between cornerweight sessions to give me a guide, both things out and in, so I can plan properly.



For example, a de skinned bonnet:



Support came in at 3.3kg:


Hinges at 2.6kg:



Struts, lock, bolts, etc at 2.64kg



And that’s 8.5kg saved at the front where it’s hard to save because of the engine, gearbox, etc... 4x aerocatches at a total of 250g goes back in and everything is solid again.