Are trackdays getting faster or am I getting slower?
Discussion
I've been doing trackdays on and off for nearly 30 years, still got a picture of myself in a TVR Tasmin 280 Coupe at Brands with Club 89 in the early 90s, there's a sticker at the top of the windscreen saying "It's my first time".
My fastest track car was a 190hp Westfield, my slowest a Fiesta ST150 but I've done the most about 10 years ago in a Clio 172 Cup which was lightly modified, Eibach springs, Mintex brakes, exhaust and R888s and in that I always felt I was doing more overtaking than being overtaken, maybe not at a Goldtrack day at Spa but certainly on an MSV day at Snetterton.
Did Bedford a few weeks ago in a similarly modified Clio 200 Cup albeit on road tyres and spent most of the day being overtaken and yes I spent a lot of time thinking I could have gone through the previous corner quite a bit faster but the standard of track cars does seem high these days, very few standard cars being taken on track, lots are stripped out, rear cages, buckets, semi-slicks, suspension, big brakes, tuned engines etc.
It's as if the track car has become an end in itself rather than a bit of fun before getting more serious and going racing, perhaps the cost and red tape of actual motor racing means people are staying with trackdays with no ambition to race?
None of which I object to but I just need to accept I'm getting a bit old and slow or buy a Radical and pretend I'm a really fast driver!
My fastest track car was a 190hp Westfield, my slowest a Fiesta ST150 but I've done the most about 10 years ago in a Clio 172 Cup which was lightly modified, Eibach springs, Mintex brakes, exhaust and R888s and in that I always felt I was doing more overtaking than being overtaken, maybe not at a Goldtrack day at Spa but certainly on an MSV day at Snetterton.
Did Bedford a few weeks ago in a similarly modified Clio 200 Cup albeit on road tyres and spent most of the day being overtaken and yes I spent a lot of time thinking I could have gone through the previous corner quite a bit faster but the standard of track cars does seem high these days, very few standard cars being taken on track, lots are stripped out, rear cages, buckets, semi-slicks, suspension, big brakes, tuned engines etc.
It's as if the track car has become an end in itself rather than a bit of fun before getting more serious and going racing, perhaps the cost and red tape of actual motor racing means people are staying with trackdays with no ambition to race?
None of which I object to but I just need to accept I'm getting a bit old and slow or buy a Radical and pretend I'm a really fast driver!
I think there has been a culture shift, it used to be that people would mod cars and drive fast on the road, these days you can’t really enjoy the road the way you used to so there has been a big shift to the track, and it makes sense, it’s all about performance and what works now not aesthetics. Hence the rise in machinery more dedicated to the task.
I do it myself, started tracking in a standard car, it’s now anything but with only the shell untouched. I’ve refined my abilities over time and will continue to do so, always learning, but I accept there will always be someone and something faster, so I concentrate on what I want from it, smoother, later braking, better entry, etc
I’d love a go in a radical, but there’s no way of measuring progress in the same way you can in your own car
I do it myself, started tracking in a standard car, it’s now anything but with only the shell untouched. I’ve refined my abilities over time and will continue to do so, always learning, but I accept there will always be someone and something faster, so I concentrate on what I want from it, smoother, later braking, better entry, etc
I’d love a go in a radical, but there’s no way of measuring progress in the same way you can in your own car
For me track days were originally intended for road-legal cars, coinciding with the era (90s/00s) of speed cameras and plod generally throwing the book at excessive speeding. Hence people took fast road going machinery onto the track.
Now we have people building track day only cars and throwing serious money at them, or running genuine race cars (Radical/Caterham/Clio Cup etc). That is of course fine, but I do find it thoroughly bizzare that prople don't just go racing with such machinery. It seems a travesty to own say a Radical and spend the day mostly off the throttle waiting for traffic to move over. I guess some like to 'win' the track day.
Perhaps we need some dedicated track days for taxed and mot'd road legal vehicles?
Now we have people building track day only cars and throwing serious money at them, or running genuine race cars (Radical/Caterham/Clio Cup etc). That is of course fine, but I do find it thoroughly bizzare that prople don't just go racing with such machinery. It seems a travesty to own say a Radical and spend the day mostly off the throttle waiting for traffic to move over. I guess some like to 'win' the track day.
Perhaps we need some dedicated track days for taxed and mot'd road legal vehicles?
Olivera said:
For me track days were originally intended for road-legal cars, coinciding with the era (90s/00s) of speed cameras and plod generally throwing the book at excessive speeding. Hence people took fast road going machinery onto the track.
Now we have people building track day only cars and throwing serious money at them, or running genuine race cars (Radical/Caterham/Clio Cup etc). That is of course fine, but I do find it thoroughly bizzare that prople don't just go racing with such machinery. It seems a travesty to own say a Radical and spend the day mostly off the throttle waiting for traffic to move over. I guess some like to 'win' the track day.
Perhaps we need some dedicated track days for taxed and mot'd road legal vehicles?
Saying that, i was on an incredible track day at donington the other week that was a test day and there were loads of historic cars there, it was like a track day for goodwood festival of speed! it was one of the best rack days ive ever done, chasing a Zakspeed Capri lap after lap or sitting behind d-types and gt40s watching them sanke out of corners was a true highlight of my track days so far, all on video to, brilliant.Now we have people building track day only cars and throwing serious money at them, or running genuine race cars (Radical/Caterham/Clio Cup etc). That is of course fine, but I do find it thoroughly bizzare that prople don't just go racing with such machinery. It seems a travesty to own say a Radical and spend the day mostly off the throttle waiting for traffic to move over. I guess some like to 'win' the track day.
Perhaps we need some dedicated track days for taxed and mot'd road legal vehicles?
Yes I think so too.
The issues we've been having is the ones we've been going on are open to everyone, from people on their first TD to full race cars all out at the same time. It's no fun if you're a first timer in a road car with a load of race cars.
I don't know why, but they don't put people in groups of beginner, inter and pro and run 3 x 20 min sessions ph. They used to years ago and it was much better, I don't know if the TDO just can't be arsed or what.
Also you used to go on the TDOs site and see who was going in advance on there, do any still do that? It made a lot more sense as you could book yourself in with similar types of cars.
The issues we've been having is the ones we've been going on are open to everyone, from people on their first TD to full race cars all out at the same time. It's no fun if you're a first timer in a road car with a load of race cars.
I don't know why, but they don't put people in groups of beginner, inter and pro and run 3 x 20 min sessions ph. They used to years ago and it was much better, I don't know if the TDO just can't be arsed or what.
Also you used to go on the TDOs site and see who was going in advance on there, do any still do that? It made a lot more sense as you could book yourself in with similar types of cars.
Personally I prefer open pitlane to sessions, guess most people do hence nearly all days are open pitlane now.
Open pitlane seems more relaxed, with sessions your group all goes out at once, if it gets red flagged you probably lose that 20 mins then have to wait 40 mins for another go and time wasted all day getting one group off before another goes out.
I think it depends a bit on the track, being in a slower car at Bedford isn't a problem as it's so big with loads of places to overtake that faster drivers don't get impatient and you will still get plenty of clear laps, somewhere like Brands it can be a nightmare, too many cars on too short and twisty a track, idiots get impatient and dive through into corners and round Clearways in the mistaken belief that it's a straight!
Open pitlane seems more relaxed, with sessions your group all goes out at once, if it gets red flagged you probably lose that 20 mins then have to wait 40 mins for another go and time wasted all day getting one group off before another goes out.
I think it depends a bit on the track, being in a slower car at Bedford isn't a problem as it's so big with loads of places to overtake that faster drivers don't get impatient and you will still get plenty of clear laps, somewhere like Brands it can be a nightmare, too many cars on too short and twisty a track, idiots get impatient and dive through into corners and round Clearways in the mistaken belief that it's a straight!
I have only been doing track days for 20 years in the UK and I haven't observed much of a difference but I probably didn't pay much attention. I would say that the overall pace has increased a bit perhaps but that's probably due to the fact that even road cars have massively improved in terms of brakes, suspension kinematics, tyres and of course power (and despite cars getting heavier).
The cohabitation with race teams tyring to save money by doing testing work on a track day is happening more often though but generally that's OK.
The cohabitation with race teams tyring to save money by doing testing work on a track day is happening more often though but generally that's OK.
I'd say there has been a general shift amongst TD regulars to more track focused stuff rather than stock or lightly modified road cars. Excluding obviously the more expensive sports cars, which appear to be more common as well.
It also seems to me that fewer one off or irregular attendees are going to days run by the independents, I seem to see the same faces far more often.
Maybe the irregulars still rock up at dates run by the circuits directly?
I've also noticed whilst race teams testing have increased as per nickfrog, the experience day crowd using trackdays to run events seems to have markedly decreased probably accounting for the higher (and faster) overall driver standards. I can certainly remember when a race team turning up at a TD where probably hosting a hospitality type event for sponsors/friends either allowing the guests to drive or running pax laps. Now they seem to generally be testing with the race drivers, not that there is anything wrong with this mind.
It also seems to me that fewer one off or irregular attendees are going to days run by the independents, I seem to see the same faces far more often.
Maybe the irregulars still rock up at dates run by the circuits directly?
I've also noticed whilst race teams testing have increased as per nickfrog, the experience day crowd using trackdays to run events seems to have markedly decreased probably accounting for the higher (and faster) overall driver standards. I can certainly remember when a race team turning up at a TD where probably hosting a hospitality type event for sponsors/friends either allowing the guests to drive or running pax laps. Now they seem to generally be testing with the race drivers, not that there is anything wrong with this mind.
Evoluzione said:
The issues we've been having is the ones we've been going on are open to everyone, from people on their first TD to full race cars all out at the same time. It's no fun if you're a first timer in a road car with a load of race cars.
I don't know why, but they don't put people in groups of beginner, inter and pro and run 3 x 20 min sessions ph. They used to years ago and it was much better, I don't know if the TDO just can't be arsed or what.
Sessioned days are inflexible making open pit lane a much better option.I don't know why, but they don't put people in groups of beginner, inter and pro and run 3 x 20 min sessions ph. They used to years ago and it was much better, I don't know if the TDO just can't be arsed or what.
Evoluzione said:
Also you used to go on the TDOs site and see who was going in advance on there, do any still do that? It made a lot more sense as you could book yourself in with similar types of cars.
Publishing entry lists of cars/drivers conflicts with personal privacy laws stipulated by EU's General Data Protection Regulation.the last track day i did was at brands, there was a big meeting that weekend and a lot of the race cars were there fettling stuff for the race weekend, from minis all the way up to a big group of radicals
it was insane to allow the radicals out with enthusiasts in performance cars, the gulf in speed difference was mental and they were generally treating it like a race, they just appear out of nothing
it was insane to allow the radicals out with enthusiasts in performance cars, the gulf in speed difference was mental and they were generally treating it like a race, they just appear out of nothing
Dave Hedgehog said:
the last track day i did was at brands, there was a big meeting that weekend and a lot of the race cars were there fettling stuff for the race weekend, from minis all the way up to a big group of radicals
it was insane to allow the radicals out with enthusiasts in performance cars, the gulf in speed difference was mental and they were generally treating it like a race, they just appear out of nothing
We had that problem at Mallory in April. Radicals and saloon/sports cars don't mix well it was insane to allow the radicals out with enthusiasts in performance cars, the gulf in speed difference was mental and they were generally treating it like a race, they just appear out of nothing
At my last trackday at cadwell i was amazed at how capable stock modern hot hatches are. There was a pair of i30Ns and some Renault meganes i couldn't stay close to, at any point. These all had road tyres, full interior and stock intake/exhausts. I heard from another group that there were FK8 civic type Rs and an AMG A series that were also really quick.
At some tracks like bedford and snetterton i expect to be left behind behind these much more powerful cars, but on a tight circuit like cadwell i was really suprised by how fast they were, everywhere.
At some tracks like bedford and snetterton i expect to be left behind behind these much more powerful cars, but on a tight circuit like cadwell i was really suprised by how fast they were, everywhere.
I avoid track days like the plague between March and November. Far too much race car testing, massively powerful and expensive cars and sky high prices. I much prefer winter, where the prices drop and the race cars are absent. Okay, so the weather is usually wet, but my car has a roof and I always have A rated wet tyres to hand. Rain often scares away many of the more powerful cars and my not far from standard road car performs relatively well, compared to others.
A few years ago I rocked up in an E46 M3 'Clubsport' to my first RMA trackday at Silverstone GP on a cold November day. It was almost half the price of a regular RMA trackday around the time when the 991.1 GT3 RS was new. There were so many 991 GT3RS in the paddock / pit lane the event could've been mistaken for 'Porsche Carrera Cup 4 Hours of Silverstone'.
Suffice to say, I was a moving chicane for them throughout the day whereby like Spa / Nurburgring on an RMA day you can overtake on both sides. I vividly recall being overtaken simultaneously on both sides by two GT3RS through Abbey / Farm. Talking to a few of the owners, some even had two cars - one for the Nurburgring and one for the UK.
It's an arms race out there, so four years later - now armed with an E92 M3 I was overtaken effortlessly yesterday by a Weissach 991.2 GT3RS!
Suffice to say, I was a moving chicane for them throughout the day whereby like Spa / Nurburgring on an RMA day you can overtake on both sides. I vividly recall being overtaken simultaneously on both sides by two GT3RS through Abbey / Farm. Talking to a few of the owners, some even had two cars - one for the Nurburgring and one for the UK.
It's an arms race out there, so four years later - now armed with an E92 M3 I was overtaken effortlessly yesterday by a Weissach 991.2 GT3RS!
Olivera said:
... I do find it thoroughly bizzare that prople don't just go racing with such machinery....
I used to think that but when you look into the detail of actually racing it's:- a much bigger commitment (time/money, licence, scrutineering, compliant safety equipment etc)
- a lot less flexible (rigid dates/venues of the series you're racing in)
- you get less track time!
Obviously the adrenaline hit is much higher with racing, and that's why many people race and don't like track days.
But I totally understand people enjoying driving/fettling track focussed cars which only go on track days. You can still enjoy a high pace, explore a car's limits safely, and reliably do 150+ miles of track driving in a day.
That said, I agree there are definitely people who treat the track day scene as a competition!
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