Camber settings
Discussion
Hi All
Just after some thoughts. Not really been into chassis tuning so far, always run standard suspension so don't know much about it.
Currently use a Hyundai i30N as my track car and came across a mod yesterday that has got my interest especially after a racer friend of mine commented on my tyres following my last trackday. He told me to get some camber added (more negative I presume).
I can either get adjustable top mounts that work with the standard suspension and or camber bolts for the front.
having had a quick Google it would seem the factory setting is about -0.5 up front and about -1.5 in the rear.
If I bung on the top mounts I can apparently take the front camber to -2.
I recall from reading Subaru stuff before that it is usually better to have more camber at the back for stability? is that a general rule or just a Subaru thing? guess it is kinda implied by the standard setup being -0.5 front and -1.5 rear?
Is it worth the effort and expense? The top mounts are £250 is another 1-1.5 -ve going to make a big difference? It is fairly competent as it is and not munching sidewalls or anything though I can see the shoulder is taking the brunt of it. Will the extra front camber make it a bit unstable?
There doesnt seem to be anything on the market to increase rear camber short of binning the standard adjustable suspension, which I dont really want to do one for cost and 2 it means the car can do road and track fairly well rather than being good at one and crap at the other.
Car is used as a daily driver and fun B road car but I only do about 3-5k miles a year so extra wear not a problem, use different tyres for road and track too.
Just after some thoughts. Not really been into chassis tuning so far, always run standard suspension so don't know much about it.
Currently use a Hyundai i30N as my track car and came across a mod yesterday that has got my interest especially after a racer friend of mine commented on my tyres following my last trackday. He told me to get some camber added (more negative I presume).
I can either get adjustable top mounts that work with the standard suspension and or camber bolts for the front.
having had a quick Google it would seem the factory setting is about -0.5 up front and about -1.5 in the rear.
If I bung on the top mounts I can apparently take the front camber to -2.
I recall from reading Subaru stuff before that it is usually better to have more camber at the back for stability? is that a general rule or just a Subaru thing? guess it is kinda implied by the standard setup being -0.5 front and -1.5 rear?
Is it worth the effort and expense? The top mounts are £250 is another 1-1.5 -ve going to make a big difference? It is fairly competent as it is and not munching sidewalls or anything though I can see the shoulder is taking the brunt of it. Will the extra front camber make it a bit unstable?
There doesnt seem to be anything on the market to increase rear camber short of binning the standard adjustable suspension, which I dont really want to do one for cost and 2 it means the car can do road and track fairly well rather than being good at one and crap at the other.
Car is used as a daily driver and fun B road car but I only do about 3-5k miles a year so extra wear not a problem, use different tyres for road and track too.
One benefit of more negative camber is that it will help preserve the tyre shoulders, otherwise they'll wear through long before the rest of the tread.
Otherwise, you can use a tyre such as the Cup 2 which has reinforced shoulders.
More negative camber is generally better on track to keep more of the contact patch on the tarmac through corners. As long as you don't go too mad it'll be fine for road use, but as always these modifications are a compromise.
Otherwise, you can use a tyre such as the Cup 2 which has reinforced shoulders.
More negative camber is generally better on track to keep more of the contact patch on the tarmac through corners. As long as you don't go too mad it'll be fine for road use, but as always these modifications are a compromise.
How do you find the car handles at the moment? If you were having issues with tyre wear or handling (perhaps understeer when cornering) more camber might be an answer. Toe will have a big impact on how a car feels too.
People often go too aggressive for road settings. Just remember that chassis geometry in the main is about compromise. You make a car better in some situations and that often makes it worse in others. I do appreciate that there are some cars where you can make changes that improve in all conditions.
People often go too aggressive for road settings. Just remember that chassis geometry in the main is about compromise. You make a car better in some situations and that often makes it worse in others. I do appreciate that there are some cars where you can make changes that improve in all conditions.
RB Will said:
Is it going to make the back end a bit sensitive?
I don’t mind a little bit of slip, it’s quite nice and progressive when it lets go at the moment, just don’t want it being super snappy
No, if you were to go down to about -0.5 to 1 it would rotate easier when provoked, I have mine at -0.5 as coming from RWD I like it like that.I don’t mind a little bit of slip, it’s quite nice and progressive when it lets go at the moment, just don’t want it being super snappy
Tommie38 said:
How do you find the car handles at the moment? If you were having issues with tyre wear or handling (perhaps understeer when cornering) more camber might be an answer. Toe will have a big impact on how a car feels too.
Handling at the moment is great to be fair, it is very easy to drive quickly and the back only steps out when really provoked like bouncing kerbs.Not too much understeer at present. I run on track on MRF ZTR tyres so they don’t flop over and ruin the sidewall like the road tyres on my Impreza but looking at the wear it looks like it is only really using the outer 30% of the tyres, almost looks like they are going to pop off the rim
Layman's view disclaimer...so happy to be corrected on any of the following by those who know more. But this is what I have to pass on from my own learnings re. suspension geometry on my track car over the past couple years.
Basically, there's not a simple answer. This is because it's not just suspension type (i.e. single/double wishbone, MacPherson strut, semi-trailing arm, etc) and vehicle dependent, but also dependent on what other upgrades and adjustments have been performed.
E.g. increasing caster on a MacPherson strut 'typically' increases the amount of negative camber gained with compression (dynamic camber), thereby lessening the amount of static camber required. On the same suspension design, lowering the car results in an increase in negative static camber.
What this means is what other people tell you they are running has to be taken with a pinch of salt, unless their car is exactly the same as yours in every way regarding modifications. Because who knows what else they are running that leads to that particular setup? And transferability of camber/toe/caster setups across different vehicles is just guessing.
The general rule though is you want to maximise the tyre contact patch most of the time. So if you're wearing the outer shoulders or just the outer 1/4 of the tyre tread first, obvious answer is more negative camber and/or more caster - assuming your car runs single wishbone or MacPherson strut up front. In terms of what solution you take - whatever has the least impact on your warranty! However you may find that whilst the best adjustable top mounts will let you increase both negative camber and caster, they tend to only work with coilovers, subject to a few exceptions. Camber bolts I would expect are easily reversable (re. warranty) and I'd expect to work with OEM suspension but probably less adjustment range. Probably cheaper too though!
In your position, I'd be tempted to try the camber bolts and see what they offered. Add 1 degree or so negative camber per trackday and use a pyrometer - or even a cr*ppy multimeter temp probe is better than nothing - to monitor your tyre temperature across the tread width after some hot sessions and see if you need to add more for the next day. Take it from there.
The other thing worth thinking about is toe. 10-20 minutes of front toe out will increase turn response compared with tracking straight and will take 'some' load off the outside of the tyre. But that may or may not be already dialled into the manufacturer's specs. Would need to check.
Don't touch the rear until you're happy with the front! Most OEM setups typically have more rear camber than front so that cars understeer 'safely' on the limit. You may find that increased front bite the added front negative camber adds causes the rear to move around a bit more - because if understeer is currently your limiting factor, you'll be dialling that out and going faster. Address any rear issues then...
If you later lower your car on coilovers and/or add uprated anti-roll bars, the whole process may require some tweaking to get the contact patch back to it's happy maximum!
Basically, there's not a simple answer. This is because it's not just suspension type (i.e. single/double wishbone, MacPherson strut, semi-trailing arm, etc) and vehicle dependent, but also dependent on what other upgrades and adjustments have been performed.
E.g. increasing caster on a MacPherson strut 'typically' increases the amount of negative camber gained with compression (dynamic camber), thereby lessening the amount of static camber required. On the same suspension design, lowering the car results in an increase in negative static camber.
What this means is what other people tell you they are running has to be taken with a pinch of salt, unless their car is exactly the same as yours in every way regarding modifications. Because who knows what else they are running that leads to that particular setup? And transferability of camber/toe/caster setups across different vehicles is just guessing.
The general rule though is you want to maximise the tyre contact patch most of the time. So if you're wearing the outer shoulders or just the outer 1/4 of the tyre tread first, obvious answer is more negative camber and/or more caster - assuming your car runs single wishbone or MacPherson strut up front. In terms of what solution you take - whatever has the least impact on your warranty! However you may find that whilst the best adjustable top mounts will let you increase both negative camber and caster, they tend to only work with coilovers, subject to a few exceptions. Camber bolts I would expect are easily reversable (re. warranty) and I'd expect to work with OEM suspension but probably less adjustment range. Probably cheaper too though!
In your position, I'd be tempted to try the camber bolts and see what they offered. Add 1 degree or so negative camber per trackday and use a pyrometer - or even a cr*ppy multimeter temp probe is better than nothing - to monitor your tyre temperature across the tread width after some hot sessions and see if you need to add more for the next day. Take it from there.
The other thing worth thinking about is toe. 10-20 minutes of front toe out will increase turn response compared with tracking straight and will take 'some' load off the outside of the tyre. But that may or may not be already dialled into the manufacturer's specs. Would need to check.
Don't touch the rear until you're happy with the front! Most OEM setups typically have more rear camber than front so that cars understeer 'safely' on the limit. You may find that increased front bite the added front negative camber adds causes the rear to move around a bit more - because if understeer is currently your limiting factor, you'll be dialling that out and going faster. Address any rear issues then...
If you later lower your car on coilovers and/or add uprated anti-roll bars, the whole process may require some tweaking to get the contact patch back to it's happy maximum!
motorhole said:
Layman's view disclaimer...so happy to be corrected on any of the following by those who know more.
E.g. increasing caster on a MacPherson strut 'typically' increases the amount of negative camber gained with compression (dynamic camber), thereby lessening the amount of static camber required. On the same suspension design, lowering the car results in an increase in negative static camber.
Close, but no. Increasing caster gives more negative camber on the outside wheel in a turn/corner. A simple explanation, imagine the bottom of the strut pulled forward a lot, so if the wheel is turned full lock in, you can see it'd have a lot of negative. E.g. increasing caster on a MacPherson strut 'typically' increases the amount of negative camber gained with compression (dynamic camber), thereby lessening the amount of static camber required. On the same suspension design, lowering the car results in an increase in negative static camber.
The rest is OK.
SlimJim16v said:
Close, but no. Increasing caster gives more negative camber on the outside wheel in a turn/corner. A simple explanation, imagine the bottom of the strut pulled forward a lot, so if the wheel is turned full lock in, you can see it'd have a lot of negative.
The rest is OK.
Thanks SlimJim, makes perfect sense The rest is OK.
RB Will said:
Handling at the moment is great to be fair, it is very easy to drive quickly and the back only steps out when really provoked like bouncing kerbs.
Not too much understeer at present. I run on track on MRF ZTR tyres so they don’t flop over and ruin the sidewall like the road tyres on my Impreza but looking at the wear it looks like it is only really using the outer 30% of the tyres, almost looks like they are going to pop off the rim
Do it. 2 degrees isn't extreme. You can see in this photo that the outside wheel has positive camber, so an extra 1.5 degrees should make a tangible difference to improve tyre wear. Not too much understeer at present. I run on track on MRF ZTR tyres so they don’t flop over and ruin the sidewall like the road tyres on my Impreza but looking at the wear it looks like it is only really using the outer 30% of the tyres, almost looks like they are going to pop off the rim
It will increase front grip, so the balance of front/rear is altered but at a higher limit (i.e. rear grip is not reduced).
Downside - you might get some tramlining on rutted roads.
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