Another cage thread
Discussion
Hi all,
So I have a 182 clio as a track car which is a second car but I do like to drive on the road as well.
It has a few mods but nothing crazy and I have not done many track days yet (maybe 5) but I really want to ramp this up and get more into it over the next 12-18 months.
I would like to keep this hobby safe so have been thinking a cage and full harness set up should be next but I keep coming up against conflicting opinions around the safety of using a car with a cage on the road due to the head injury risk.
I do want a car I can still drive on the road so I am now wondering what my options are. I spoke to mark fish at safety devices and was pretty much heading down the half cage route but as I start adding up the cost of the cage and the next swathe of mods that I want to make ( which I know I dont need to do but I enjoy doing) I got wondering about whether the car was the issue.
From some of the stuff I have read older cars like the 182 justify a cage much more than modern cars and so part of me is thinking about whether upgrading to a 197/200 or even a mark 3 megane or similar might just be a better bet. The impression I get is they would do better in a crash on track without a cage and so dont warrant one (at my level of driving) so could make more sense?
What do you lot think
So I have a 182 clio as a track car which is a second car but I do like to drive on the road as well.
It has a few mods but nothing crazy and I have not done many track days yet (maybe 5) but I really want to ramp this up and get more into it over the next 12-18 months.
I would like to keep this hobby safe so have been thinking a cage and full harness set up should be next but I keep coming up against conflicting opinions around the safety of using a car with a cage on the road due to the head injury risk.
I do want a car I can still drive on the road so I am now wondering what my options are. I spoke to mark fish at safety devices and was pretty much heading down the half cage route but as I start adding up the cost of the cage and the next swathe of mods that I want to make ( which I know I dont need to do but I enjoy doing) I got wondering about whether the car was the issue.
From some of the stuff I have read older cars like the 182 justify a cage much more than modern cars and so part of me is thinking about whether upgrading to a 197/200 or even a mark 3 megane or similar might just be a better bet. The impression I get is they would do better in a crash on track without a cage and so dont warrant one (at my level of driving) so could make more sense?
What do you lot think
withour a roll cage, I don't think the 200 would be much more safe than the 182. You can compare in this video;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6SP0S9dwHs
Have you considered keeping the 182 for trackdays (with a full roll cage) and buying another 182 (or other cheap car) for a daily/weekend car?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6SP0S9dwHs
Have you considered keeping the 182 for trackdays (with a full roll cage) and buying another 182 (or other cheap car) for a daily/weekend car?
I have considered making the Clio a track only car, I already have another car, but I do enjoy using it as a run around. I also dont really have the space or the right cars to start towing it on a trailer so I would inevitably end up driving it to and from trackdays so it would end up road legal and I am sure I would drive it around now and again.
I really just want something that I feel is safe on track and safe on the road - maybe I am trying to have the best of both worlds when thats not realistic
I really just want something that I feel is safe on track and safe on the road - maybe I am trying to have the best of both worlds when thats not realistic
I ended up in the same boat - want as much safety as I can reasonably get, but need road use at least to get to/from the track plus shaking the car down before a trackday, and am not comfortable with bare head vs front cage. I'm 6'3" which does make it worse.
I ended up building an e46 with a rear cage plus a door diagonal running from approx elbow height at the main hoop, to the inner sill at the base of the A Pillar. The diagonal as it passed the driver was high enough to protect the pelvis but not so high that it would do me ribcage damage in the event of a side impact. It's not perfect but better than nothing, doesn't get in the way when getting in or out, and felt like it was worth adding. Hoping never to prove out whether it was a good idea or not!
I also looked into a NASCAR style side impact bar, which is bent outboard from the main roll hoop into the door cavity and back inboard to the A pillar. Much better for side impact but you would need to tie it into a vertical bar at the A pillar and then brace across the car approximately below the steering column, which could well go through your heater box or at least the ducting or controls, and is something very hard for your shins or knees to hit in a frontal crash unless you're restrained by a decent harness. And a side structure encroaching into a hollowed-out door shell also needs polycarbonate fixed windows, which is moving away from the thing being particularly road friendly.
It's ok for the occasional run but inevitably once you've got the race seat, 5pt harness, rear cage and part front cage, some of the dash cut away, compromised heater, fixed windows and sliders... chances are it's not something to throw around the lanes any more and you might not want to get in it very often for road use any more.
I ended up building an e46 with a rear cage plus a door diagonal running from approx elbow height at the main hoop, to the inner sill at the base of the A Pillar. The diagonal as it passed the driver was high enough to protect the pelvis but not so high that it would do me ribcage damage in the event of a side impact. It's not perfect but better than nothing, doesn't get in the way when getting in or out, and felt like it was worth adding. Hoping never to prove out whether it was a good idea or not!
I also looked into a NASCAR style side impact bar, which is bent outboard from the main roll hoop into the door cavity and back inboard to the A pillar. Much better for side impact but you would need to tie it into a vertical bar at the A pillar and then brace across the car approximately below the steering column, which could well go through your heater box or at least the ducting or controls, and is something very hard for your shins or knees to hit in a frontal crash unless you're restrained by a decent harness. And a side structure encroaching into a hollowed-out door shell also needs polycarbonate fixed windows, which is moving away from the thing being particularly road friendly.
It's ok for the occasional run but inevitably once you've got the race seat, 5pt harness, rear cage and part front cage, some of the dash cut away, compromised heater, fixed windows and sliders... chances are it's not something to throw around the lanes any more and you might not want to get in it very often for road use any more.
In my experience, it is easier when you are taller. If youre tall enough you can usually sit far enough back in the car to be protected sufficiently by the roll hoop without the need for a front section. Adding a be-winged seat helps too, although it will preclude use on TF days, if they were part of your plans for the car.
944 Man said:
In my experience, it is easier when you are taller. If youre tall enough you can usually sit far enough back in the car to be protected sufficiently by the roll hoop without the need for a front section.
Don't forget if the car actually goes upside down & falls forward the line between the bonnet & the roll hoop is where the car will sit, so likely any one of any height will be within that envelope.Safety is never something to skimp on. That said, the majority of roll cage features are there for racing. Having someone T-Bone you at relatively high speed is a real factor in any and every race. It is far less so on a track day, in fact I have never, in 15 years, seen this happen on a track day. You are so much more likely to have that happen on the road, and perversely it is more likely to happen if you have a full cage and harnesses as they will restrict your movement at junctions. You then come into the area of harnesses without HANS.
If you take away from the convenience factor of jumping in the car and turning the key then you will rapidly find you will use it less on the road to the point of not using it.
While there are some horrific crashes at the Ring the times I have seen an upside down car on a UK track day are very, very few and far between. Plenty of losing the back end out of corners and sliding into the barriers, frequently backwards though. The argument about half cages not giving sufficient roll over or side impact protection of course is valid but you have to look at in the light of what potential hazards are you looking to mitigate and the likelihood of them happening. And you can have all the roll cage you want and this can still happen. https://photos.app.goo.gl/Ce11M6o87RvuPgLX7
If you take away from the convenience factor of jumping in the car and turning the key then you will rapidly find you will use it less on the road to the point of not using it.
While there are some horrific crashes at the Ring the times I have seen an upside down car on a UK track day are very, very few and far between. Plenty of losing the back end out of corners and sliding into the barriers, frequently backwards though. The argument about half cages not giving sufficient roll over or side impact protection of course is valid but you have to look at in the light of what potential hazards are you looking to mitigate and the likelihood of them happening. And you can have all the roll cage you want and this can still happen. https://photos.app.goo.gl/Ce11M6o87RvuPgLX7
Wowsers that photo is crazy
Were they OK?
I've never driven the ring but played a lot of Cars2 and if that's where I think it is its the fast down hill bit after a long right-hander so must have been a lot of speed being g carried at that point?!
I'm leaning towards making the car safer for general track and not driving it on the road so much, I think the desire to do both is pronably the main issue.
I think it means I need to switch my daily for something more fun !
Were they OK?
I've never driven the ring but played a lot of Cars2 and if that's where I think it is its the fast down hill bit after a long right-hander so must have been a lot of speed being g carried at that point?!
I'm leaning towards making the car safer for general track and not driving it on the road so much, I think the desire to do both is pronably the main issue.
I think it means I need to switch my daily for something more fun !
Z4MCSL said:
Wowsers that photo is crazy
Were they OK?
I've never driven the ring but played a lot of Cars2 and if that's where I think it is its the fast down hill bit after a long right-hander so must have been a lot of speed being g carried at that point?!
I'm leaning towards making the car safer for general track and not driving it on the road so much, I think the desire to do both is pronably the main issue.
I think it means I need to switch my daily for something more fun !
It hit the bonnet where the lights would be, which steered it up to the corner of the front hoop, which fired it down onto the steering wheel and my finger and it then went out sideward across the dash. Had it not hit the bonnet it would likely be a different outcome and equally had there not been a cage it would have then flown over the top of the car without further issue, well for car behind there may have been. The point being we are not all running bullet proof windscreens "just in case." Nor side nets and tethers. Few cars have plumbed in fire extinguishers and I have seen numerous cars catch fire on track. Most incidents on track days are people not making the corner on entry or exit and circuits generally have some form of extra provision for it. Even the famous Castle Coombe Action Days result in most taking their cars home a different shape but not BTCC style barrel rolls. A half cage is going a long way to giving you additional safety. If you want more no problem, but you will never mitigate every risk.Were they OK?
I've never driven the ring but played a lot of Cars2 and if that's where I think it is its the fast down hill bit after a long right-hander so must have been a lot of speed being g carried at that point?!
I'm leaning towards making the car safer for general track and not driving it on the road so much, I think the desire to do both is pronably the main issue.
I think it means I need to switch my daily for something more fun !
https://youtu.be/xYrOnFv7A8c
There is a longer version on YouTube if you are interested in looking.
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