Intense Tuition: Has anyone done this?

[tigamilla]

I hope I don't get laughed at (too much) for asking this.

I would like to sharpen my RWD car skills having been somewhat fooled into thinking I was better than I am by AWD. [It's too late for me to buy an MX5, I jumped in at the deep end and am too heavily invested in another car].

I asked a similar question a few months ago about getting tuition for better car control and ended up attending a Car Limits day thanks to recommendations from here. I thought it was very good and a lot of fun, however to get everything together would require multiple visits and therefore somehow less effective for my circumstances (not a criticism of them).

I have spent a significant amount on the car and I think I can now justify spending a final bit on learning how to use it to it's fullest over say an intense 1,2 or 3 days of tuition (or longer).

So...

Is there anyone who has experienced either the Driver 61 or the Total Car Control programs and could give feedback on either program please? I have already contacted both and they were great (if they are on here reading this: this post is not a doubt of your two seemingly excellent programs, but the very different approaches do want to make me hear from others!). My goal is not to race or compete, just to see improvement in my own skills on track without bending metal or bone in the learning process.

Thanks

[OzzyR1]

tigamilla said:

I hope I don't get laughed at (too much) for asking this.

I would like to sharpen my RWD car skills having been somewhat fooled into thinking I was better than I am by AWD. [It's too late for me to buy an MX5, I jumped in at the deep end and am too heavily invested in another car].

I asked a similar question a few months ago about getting tuition for better car control and ended up attending a Car Limits day thanks to recommendations from here. I thought it was very good and a lot of fun, however to get everything together would require multiple visits and therefore somehow less effective for my circumstances (not a criticism of them).

I have spent a significant amount on the car and I think I can now justify spending a final bit on learning how to use it to it's fullest over say an intense 1,2 or 3 days of tuition (or longer).

So...

Is there anyone who has experienced either the Driver 61 or the Total Car Control programs and could give feedback on either program please? I have already contacted both and they were great (if they are on here reading this: this post is not a doubt of your two seemingly excellent programs, but the very different approaches do want to make me hear from others!). My goal is not to race or compete, just to see improvement in my own skills on track without bending metal or bone in the learning process.

Thanks

Doesn't answer your question in the slightest, but if your intent is to improve your skill on track could you not get someone familiar with the circuit in question to sit in with you and give pointers as to where you could improve?

Pretty sure either of the firms you mention above have great credentials and training programmes - all depends what you want out of it and what you are prepared to spend.

I see it like getting a driving instructor - great for passing your test but you learn a hell of a lot more by practising on your own.

[ATM]

One of my favourite episodes on Top Gear is when Jackie Stewart teaches James May in a TVR. You can't beat good quality tuition.

[tigamilla]

OzzyR1 said:

Doesn't answer your question in the slightest, but if your intent is to improve your skill on track could you not get someone familiar with the circuit in question to sit in with you and give pointers as to where you could improve?

Pretty sure either of the firms you mention above have great credentials and training programmes - all depends what you want out of it and what you are prepared to spend.

I see it like getting a driving instructor - great for passing your test but you learn a hell of a lot more by practising on your own.

You are right, and I have had a fair amount of circuit relevant tuition, but I would like to build confidence on a more fundamental level. E.g: in my previous car; planting my foot hard coming out of a corner might have led to some front tyre scrub and some understeer - no biggie. In my current car I'm afraid that the rear end will overtake me and I haven't physically had the chance to practice catching and counter steering against it (apart from a few times at low speed in the wet on the road, when the (now removed) summer trackday tyres did their own thing), so I wait longer than necessary before going full throttle.

[LennyM1984]

What car have you bought? Sounds like a beast whatever it is.

Could you maybe do a drift day to get a feel for the oversteer?

[nickfrog]

I am not a fan of too intense an instruction course. I think there is only so much the brain can absorb without putting it in practice. I think what works better is perhaps 3 or 4 20mn sessions throughout a track day.
Having said that, 1 hour of class room type tuition can be useful prior to that.

[mmm-five]

I had Tim Harvey as an instructor at an Oulton Park track day once.

He didn't say a word for the laps he was with me, so I must have thought I had nothing to learn - or maybe it was just the line I was taking with the inside wheels across the grass through Island

[take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey]

Can't help re: tuition but I would look at suspension and tyre choice.... They make a huge difference to enjoyment and predictable handling.

Most folks at TDs run stiff suspension and 888s / 48r / etc. These may be 'fast' but are nowhere near as fun or, importantly, progressive as a softer more treaded set-up.

Time to role out the Tim Schrick video.

https://youtu.be/r7H4LcJLgKQ

Ignore the fact it's in German - it's easy to get the gist.

[ATM]

take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:

Can't help re: tuition but I would look at suspension and tyre choice.... They make a huge difference to enjoyment and predictable handling.

Most folks at TDs run stiff suspension and 888s / 48r / etc. These may be 'fast' but are nowhere near as fun or, importantly, progressive as a softer more treaded set-up.

Time to role out the Tim Schrick video.

https://youtu.be/r7H4LcJLgKQ

Ignore the fact it's in German - it's easy to get the gist.

I'm sure there is a version somewhere with subtitles.

https://youtu.be/m9kQrbPEXKU

[tigamilla]

LennyM1984 said:

What car have you bought? Sounds like a beast whatever it is.

Could you maybe do a drift day to get a feel for the oversteer?

No, not really a beast at all! An old M3, hadn't considered a drift actually - will give it some thought

[tigamilla]

ATM said:

take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:

Can't help re: tuition but I would look at suspension and tyre choice.... They make a huge difference to enjoyment and predictable handling.

Most folks at TDs run stiff suspension and 888s / 48r / etc. These may be 'fast' but are nowhere near as fun or, importantly, progressive as a softer more treaded set-up.

Time to role out the Tim Schrick video.

https://youtu.be/r7H4LcJLgKQ

Ignore the fact it's in German - it's easy to get the gist.

I'm sure there is a version somewhere with subtitles.

https://youtu.be/m9kQrbPEXKU

That looks like a good watch - thanks

[_Leg_]

When I started racing I had a 1-1 few days with Jamie Stanley at a couple of circuits.

I came third in my first (Ginetta) season and wouldn't have the silverware had I not been taught a great deal by him.

Cant recommend Jamie enough. Absolute top man.

http://www.jamiestanley.co.uk

[LPC6]

_Leg_ said:

When I started racing I had a 1-1 few days with Jamie Stanley at a couple of circuits.

I came third in my first (Ginetta) season and wouldn't have the silverware had I not been taught a great deal by him.

Cant recommend Jamie enough. Absolute top man.

http://www.jamiestanley.co.uk

How many is a few? and how much did you practice on your own?

[_Leg_]

LPC6 said:

_Leg_ said:

When I started racing I had a 1-1 few days with Jamie Stanley at a couple of circuits.

I came third in my first (Ginetta) season and wouldn't have the silverware had I not been taught a great deal by him.

Cant recommend Jamie enough. Absolute top man.

http://www.jamiestanley.co.uk

How many is a few? and how much did you practice on your own?

Three full days with Jamie.

Lots. I had been doing track days for 10+ years beforehand (albeit in a Westfield and an MK Indy R on semi slicks back then so very different to the Ginetta which was on series road tyres) and thought I knew how to drive on track. Turned out, I didn't and Jamie taught me loads that I would never, ever have come to understand on my own. In season I also went and did as many test days as possible as well as free practice on Fridays at race weekends.

I'm not saying everything came from Jamie, obviously that's not the case, but he taught me some more advanced techniques, especially for wet driving, that I would never have come to understand. A key thing that a good instructor will teach you is just how much is in the car. Much more than you would ever imagine.

Just a suggestion, and it isnt cheap, and I'm very much a 'one to one' kind of person rather than joining a session with other people. It may or may not be suitable for you but I found it hugely valuable and extremely enjoyable (and a tad scary at times in a 'it'll do what? Are you serious?' kinda way. ;-)

It has made me safer, both on track and road too, as it develops a better understanding of what physics does to the car and what the car's parts are doing and therefore how to manipulate and control them.

Edited by _Leg_ on Wednesday 23 December 22:46

[Nickjd]

Scott is very good. The abity to learn however does of course come down to your own ability to learn. Would you come out of 3 days continuous instruction better? Undoubtedly you would have more knowledge but I would suggest that it still needs to be "unpacked" and put into practice and that takes time and the final result will still revolve around your ability to process the track, car and you.
If you can afford it however, he is up there with the best.

[Steve H]

Firstly let me echo that Jamie is top guy and a great choice of coach.

For what you’re looking for though it would also be very important that you are at a venue where you can lean on the car hard enough to actually get it a bit out of shape while not taking too many risks.

The best place for this (or rather the best race track for this) was Rockingham but sadly it’s no longer an option. Next choice would be Anglesey and then possibly Silverstone.

The thing you need to recognise is that it is a time consuming thing to do. It’s tiring on the car and the driver (and the coach!) and if done on a trackday you will find that only a small proportion of the corners are suitable at first to practice on and only a small proportion of laps will get a clear, safe run into those corners.

All that said, for the 98% of us that don’t do it naturally it’s the best way of learning how a car feels as it moves around while minimising risks to the car and to the drivers confidence.

[LPC6]

_Leg_ said:

Three full days with Jamie.

Lots. I had been doing track days for 10+ years beforehand (albeit in a Westfield and an MK Indy R on semi slicks back then so very different to the Ginetta which was on series road tyres) and thought I knew how to drive on track. Turned out, I didn't and Jamie taught me loads that I would never, ever have come to understand on my own. In season I also went and did as many test days as possible as well as free practice on Fridays at race weekends.

I'm not saying everything came from Jamie, obviously that's not the case, but he taught me some more advanced techniques, especially for wet driving, that I would never have come to understand. A key thing that a good instructor will teach you is just how much is in the car. Much more than you would ever imagine.

Just a suggestion, and it isnt cheap, and I'm very much a 'one to one' kind of person rather than joining a session with other people. It may or may not be suitable for you but I found it hugely valuable and extremely enjoyable (and a tad scary at times in a 'it'll do what? Are you serious?' kinda way. ;-)

It has made me safer, both on track and road too, as it develops a better understanding of what physics does to the car and what the car's parts are doing and therefore how to manipulate and control them.

Edited by _Leg_ on Wednesday 23 December 22:46

Thanks for sharing. I started my trackdays with tuition and it was still incredibly intimidating. Finally at that point where I'm absorbing and practicing everything I've learnt and it's clicking. Planning to take an instructor every 5-10 trackdays or so to keep advancing

[andy97]

LennyM1984 said:

Could you maybe do a drift day to get a feel for the oversteer?

Oulton Park run drift days through the year on their infield low grip course. Good fun and not expensive. Ideal for low speed handling and car control.
Paul Sheard often takes a couple of his rally MX5s along and provides instruction. Well worth it. Google for Paul Sheard Autosport

Another tuition option is to talk to Pete Edwards at The Motorsport School; they are based at Mallory Park but will work all over. They can run tuition days in your own car or one of their MX5s. Worth talking to as they can offer bespoke options for you.

Edited by andy97 on Thursday 24th December 17:45

[_Leg_]

LPC6 said:

_Leg_ said:

Three full days with Jamie.

Lots. I had been doing track days for 10+ years beforehand (albeit in a Westfield and an MK Indy R on semi slicks back then so very different to the Ginetta which was on series road tyres) and thought I knew how to drive on track. Turned out, I didn't and Jamie taught me loads that I would never, ever have come to understand on my own. In season I also went and did as many test days as possible as well as free practice on Fridays at race weekends.

I'm not saying everything came from Jamie, obviously that's not the case, but he taught me some more advanced techniques, especially for wet driving, that I would never have come to understand. A key thing that a good instructor will teach you is just how much is in the car. Much more than you would ever imagine.

Just a suggestion, and it isnt cheap, and I'm very much a 'one to one' kind of person rather than joining a session with other people. It may or may not be suitable for you but I found it hugely valuable and extremely enjoyable (and a tad scary at times in a 'it'll do what? Are you serious?' kinda way. ;-)

It has made me safer, both on track and road too, as it develops a better understanding of what physics does to the car and what the car's parts are doing and therefore how to manipulate and control them.

Edited by _Leg_ on Wednesday 23 December 22:46

Thanks for sharing. I started my trackdays with tuition and it was still incredibly intimidating. Finally at that point where I'm absorbing and practicing everything I've learnt and it's clicking. Planning to take an instructor every 5-10 trackdays or so to keep advancing

A 20 minute session with a track day instructor is, IMO, a waste of money. As capable as the instructor may be they simply dont have the time to understand where you or your car are at.

[Steve H]

_Leg_ said:

A 20 minute session with a track day instructor is, IMO, a waste of money. As capable as the instructor may be they simply dont have the time to understand where you or your car are at.

Totally disagree. With most drivers/cars it takes less than a lap to tell where their strengths and weaknesses are. If that hasn’t been the case for you then you are either at a very advanced stage where it’s the last few details that need spotting (everyone thinks this is them but it rarely is ) or you’ve sat with the wrong instructors.

For sure 20 minute sessions can only do a certain amount but at the other end of the scale many drivers find too much tuition overwhelming and anything after the first hour or two becomes a waste.

There’s no such thing as the typical trackday driver but if there was I’d say their ideal balance between cost/fun/progression would be one hour mid morning and if they wanted to push the progression then another 20 minutes or an hour immediately after lunch.