Civic Type R (FN2) vs Clio vs Megane Track Day Choice
Discussion
Chaps
After selling my Honda S2000 that I enjoyed many track days with, I upgraded to a car that I don't feel comfortable tracking (Audi R8) due to the cost of consumables and general fear of twanging it!
So after a year off track days, Im considering a cheaper hatch back that I can use as a track car myself plus my son who's approaching 16 can use as well in the coming years.
So I have set myself a small budget of upto £4k and from what I've read, the FN2 Civic Type R, the Clio 197 (?) or the Megane 225 (?) might be the best options.
Want to keep the car road legal but happy to do some work on to get it to be more track focused. Just wanted to see people opinions on which is the better option for track work, problems associated with each one, any better alternatives etc.
Thanks
Chris
After selling my Honda S2000 that I enjoyed many track days with, I upgraded to a car that I don't feel comfortable tracking (Audi R8) due to the cost of consumables and general fear of twanging it!
So after a year off track days, Im considering a cheaper hatch back that I can use as a track car myself plus my son who's approaching 16 can use as well in the coming years.
So I have set myself a small budget of upto £4k and from what I've read, the FN2 Civic Type R, the Clio 197 (?) or the Megane 225 (?) might be the best options.
Want to keep the car road legal but happy to do some work on to get it to be more track focused. Just wanted to see people opinions on which is the better option for track work, problems associated with each one, any better alternatives etc.
Thanks
Chris
I had this same question back in the summer and opted for an FN2. Even the good Meganes I tested seemed a bit baggy and loose on test drives.
Fn2's can be very good, but they do need some work to sparkle, I ended up spending much more than I had initially planned to get it up to a good standard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhhyvevnuFs (this is before I got geo sorted properly and BBK).
Car was £4.4k, 59 plate with c95k miles.
Minimum chassis upgrades = eibach spring and a proper fast road geometry set up from likes of TDI South.They are c£90 + vat per hour. I'd guess 2 hours for springs and roughly two hours for geometry. Plus shims/ Eibach camber bolts. I opted for coilovers and bushes. And it's a weapon once setup. BC coil overs were £800 and poly-bushes £130. I got them bottled on elsewhere for c£450, but would be more from someone reputable. The geometry is a fine art, lots of people offer it, few do it well.
Best next chassis upgrade (I'm told) is whiteline anti roll bar at rear, about £250 labour, which I'll probably do next year. Its only about £400 for front and rears.
Standard Brakes are sh*te and will fade even early on under heavy use. Can be improved with decent fluids, pads and discs, properly bedded in. Minimum replace high performance fluids, pagid flat discs (c£80 front / £50 rear), and either DS2500 pads or PBS (£100-130), on plus side, replacements are cheap. You can also replace the front fogs with air ducts and get something to fettle some air pipes into the front wheels to cool them down, I have not done this yet, but relatively cheap mod to improve brake cooling/performance.
Ideally BBK at fronts with standard rears, Stoptechs are the daddies, which I have opted for, plus 15mm spacers required for standard wheels to clear. Stop techs are about £2.5k, I got a used set for £1.2k. There are cheaper options, such as Megane Brembo conversion. c£900. And Yellow speed from Tegiwa are about £1.2k. Keep an eye on flee bay and FBMP for used.
Engine wise, they are bullet proof engines in general but they do fail on track more than people think, due to oil starvation either by oil level being too low and/or high g-force with track tires. To protect against this, you can either slightly over fill them (cheap option) approx half between the top hole and the first twist or better option, drop in sump baffle and FD2 (JDM type R) oil pump balancer shaft delete kit. Baffle is c£150, oil pump c£400 plus a fair bit of labour as you'll have to take engine out, so you're looking at a fair bit of labour. Make sure this is fitted by someone that knows what they're doing, as it requires a little know how, but well worth doing.
They burn oil when used in VTEC for long periods on road or track (especially track). You really have to be on top of it, checking regularly and keeping it topped up, some people will use 1/2 - 1 litre on a track day. I've probably put 1/4 of a litre in mine over the past month.
If you go for sump baffle/balancer shaft delete pump kit, whilst engine is out, might as well get a new timing chain and tensioner and clutch. I also got an M-Factory LSD fitted (c£650), but in hindsight, wish I'd got a Wavetrac, which is roughly double price, but more capable. Whilst engine out, I got the gearbox inspected for healthy synchros, and fresh oil in box.
Honda timing chain kit - £134.17
Timing chain guides - £137.47
Exedy OEM clutch kit - £150
Ultra light flywheel - £266.32
M-Factor helical LSD - £650
If pockets are deep, get a Toda timing chain and tensioner.
Whilst engine is out, if you have budgets, might as well sort out the breathing and unleash a little bit more of the latent power. Mine has inlet manifold (Honda RRC) c£350, Toda (or copy) 4-2-1 manifold from £150, decent exhaust (I've got M2 resonated) but Tegiwa lightweight will do c£500. Decent air intake, I've got HKS (£400), Injen also supposed to be good. Combined with an EcuTek map (£500), I'm running 240bhp/200 torques.
It feels potent with that power, the extra torque really transforms the way the car performs, as the map gives much better low and mid range power. The VTEC point is lower, and you don't get engine labouring all the time below VTEC as you do with standard engines. The balancer delete lets the engine rev much more freely, so it feels like an old skool VTEC screamer, more responsive and boystrerous.
I've read a couple of threads in Civic forums with people who've spend £8-13k with forged engines, turbo and super-charged engines (making 350-650bhp) say 230-240bhp was the sweet spot and they regret going further. It gets very expensive to go any further with power, NA = cams/throttle bodies etc, or forced induction. Brakes and chassis always the priority over power, but the EcuTek map is better even with just an intake than standard. Initially I got the map with the intake and it was 218bhp, doesn't sound like much but car performed much better with that map.
Can't wait to get mine on track again now geo is sorted and BBK fitted.
I'm pretty happy with mine and it's always competitive at TD's, but as you can see, it's cost a fair bit and that doesn't take into account the time and journey involved. And standing around in garages like a lemon for hours on end. There does seem to be quite a lot of clios already in this state of fettle, so it could be worth looking for something where someone has already gone through the investment of time and money getting it set up. If you have the patience, you can get used parts on FB marketplace, lots of people tune FN2s so regularly parts around.
All of that said, you'll probably have great fun just with the springs and geo, and basic brake upgrades. Especially if you make it lighter.
Next steps for mine will be a half roll cage (c£550), harnesses and buckets. Lightweight track wheels (17 inch) And potentially the anti roll bars mentioned above.
Hope this helps.
Fn2's can be very good, but they do need some work to sparkle, I ended up spending much more than I had initially planned to get it up to a good standard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhhyvevnuFs (this is before I got geo sorted properly and BBK).
Car was £4.4k, 59 plate with c95k miles.
Minimum chassis upgrades = eibach spring and a proper fast road geometry set up from likes of TDI South.They are c£90 + vat per hour. I'd guess 2 hours for springs and roughly two hours for geometry. Plus shims/ Eibach camber bolts. I opted for coilovers and bushes. And it's a weapon once setup. BC coil overs were £800 and poly-bushes £130. I got them bottled on elsewhere for c£450, but would be more from someone reputable. The geometry is a fine art, lots of people offer it, few do it well.
Best next chassis upgrade (I'm told) is whiteline anti roll bar at rear, about £250 labour, which I'll probably do next year. Its only about £400 for front and rears.
Standard Brakes are sh*te and will fade even early on under heavy use. Can be improved with decent fluids, pads and discs, properly bedded in. Minimum replace high performance fluids, pagid flat discs (c£80 front / £50 rear), and either DS2500 pads or PBS (£100-130), on plus side, replacements are cheap. You can also replace the front fogs with air ducts and get something to fettle some air pipes into the front wheels to cool them down, I have not done this yet, but relatively cheap mod to improve brake cooling/performance.
Ideally BBK at fronts with standard rears, Stoptechs are the daddies, which I have opted for, plus 15mm spacers required for standard wheels to clear. Stop techs are about £2.5k, I got a used set for £1.2k. There are cheaper options, such as Megane Brembo conversion. c£900. And Yellow speed from Tegiwa are about £1.2k. Keep an eye on flee bay and FBMP for used.
Engine wise, they are bullet proof engines in general but they do fail on track more than people think, due to oil starvation either by oil level being too low and/or high g-force with track tires. To protect against this, you can either slightly over fill them (cheap option) approx half between the top hole and the first twist or better option, drop in sump baffle and FD2 (JDM type R) oil pump balancer shaft delete kit. Baffle is c£150, oil pump c£400 plus a fair bit of labour as you'll have to take engine out, so you're looking at a fair bit of labour. Make sure this is fitted by someone that knows what they're doing, as it requires a little know how, but well worth doing.
They burn oil when used in VTEC for long periods on road or track (especially track). You really have to be on top of it, checking regularly and keeping it topped up, some people will use 1/2 - 1 litre on a track day. I've probably put 1/4 of a litre in mine over the past month.
If you go for sump baffle/balancer shaft delete pump kit, whilst engine is out, might as well get a new timing chain and tensioner and clutch. I also got an M-Factory LSD fitted (c£650), but in hindsight, wish I'd got a Wavetrac, which is roughly double price, but more capable. Whilst engine out, I got the gearbox inspected for healthy synchros, and fresh oil in box.
Honda timing chain kit - £134.17
Timing chain guides - £137.47
Exedy OEM clutch kit - £150
Ultra light flywheel - £266.32
M-Factor helical LSD - £650
If pockets are deep, get a Toda timing chain and tensioner.
Whilst engine is out, if you have budgets, might as well sort out the breathing and unleash a little bit more of the latent power. Mine has inlet manifold (Honda RRC) c£350, Toda (or copy) 4-2-1 manifold from £150, decent exhaust (I've got M2 resonated) but Tegiwa lightweight will do c£500. Decent air intake, I've got HKS (£400), Injen also supposed to be good. Combined with an EcuTek map (£500), I'm running 240bhp/200 torques.
It feels potent with that power, the extra torque really transforms the way the car performs, as the map gives much better low and mid range power. The VTEC point is lower, and you don't get engine labouring all the time below VTEC as you do with standard engines. The balancer delete lets the engine rev much more freely, so it feels like an old skool VTEC screamer, more responsive and boystrerous.
I've read a couple of threads in Civic forums with people who've spend £8-13k with forged engines, turbo and super-charged engines (making 350-650bhp) say 230-240bhp was the sweet spot and they regret going further. It gets very expensive to go any further with power, NA = cams/throttle bodies etc, or forced induction. Brakes and chassis always the priority over power, but the EcuTek map is better even with just an intake than standard. Initially I got the map with the intake and it was 218bhp, doesn't sound like much but car performed much better with that map.
Can't wait to get mine on track again now geo is sorted and BBK fitted.
I'm pretty happy with mine and it's always competitive at TD's, but as you can see, it's cost a fair bit and that doesn't take into account the time and journey involved. And standing around in garages like a lemon for hours on end. There does seem to be quite a lot of clios already in this state of fettle, so it could be worth looking for something where someone has already gone through the investment of time and money getting it set up. If you have the patience, you can get used parts on FB marketplace, lots of people tune FN2s so regularly parts around.
All of that said, you'll probably have great fun just with the springs and geo, and basic brake upgrades. Especially if you make it lighter.
Next steps for mine will be a half roll cage (c£550), harnesses and buckets. Lightweight track wheels (17 inch) And potentially the anti roll bars mentioned above.
Hope this helps.
Edited by handbraketurn on Monday 30th November 20:48
handbraketurn said:
I had this same question back in the summer and opted for an FN2. ......lots of mods
this is not atypical for many who start doing TDs. my old mx5 got faster, stiffer, lighter and more directly connected (bushes, seat, harness). it was a journey i really enjoyed as i felt the difference to each mod. a great learning experience. at the end it wasn't really a road car, more a Ginetta copy. should have bought one of those! although the build was the journey. Priceless. (costly) Once you've regularly been strapped tight and low in a lightweight with extra power a standard road car doesn't cut it.I've thought about many alternatives but haven't found the answer. My current thinking is get a simple car for simple fun and rent a Caterham every so often. MX5/Clio/MR2 kind of thing. Owning a Caterham is a medium term plan, but i prefer a trailer for that as even with hotel, 2-4 hours each way plus a raw car all day is quite tiring.
Yours sounds great. i bet you wouldn't change the experience, even if you did it differently next time?
The good thing with Renault Sport models is that they're pretty much ready to go out of the box. They might need a few things doing for pure track work, but they're pretty well set up as standard.
Clio would be my choice. 172's and 182's are usually the go-to, as they're lighter, quicker and cheaper to maintain but they are getting on a bit now. The 197's are still awesome though and are probably the better car for the track. They also come with the Brembo brakes from factory.
For a Megane, I'd always try and get a MK3 250, but these will be out of your budget.
Clio would be my choice. 172's and 182's are usually the go-to, as they're lighter, quicker and cheaper to maintain but they are getting on a bit now. The 197's are still awesome though and are probably the better car for the track. They also come with the Brembo brakes from factory.
For a Megane, I'd always try and get a MK3 250, but these will be out of your budget.
As Culpz says/implies, unless you intend to empty your wallet each year, buy something that is already track ready, or designed that way by the manufacturer.
Or, given that you have good experience of it already, another S2000?
Just spotted this on another thread:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ford-Fiesta-ST-150-2008...
Or, given that you have good experience of it already, another S2000?
Just spotted this on another thread:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ford-Fiesta-ST-150-2008...
Edited by QBee on Wednesday 2nd December 20:27
Check here for track cars too:
https://racecarsdirect.com
This is bit above budget, but still less than I have shelled out on my civic so far
https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/117361/b...
https://racecarsdirect.com
This is bit above budget, but still less than I have shelled out on my civic so far
https://racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/117361/b...
Edited by handbraketurn on Wednesday 2nd December 23:17
CABC said:
handbraketurn said:
Yours sounds great. i bet you wouldn't change the experience, even if you did it differently next time?
Thanks. There is definitely satisfaction in having a well set up car to your own spec, for sure, but there were some fairly big financial shocks with mine, with things I hadn't accounted for needing to be replaced etc. A few invoices that made me gulp. I think a roll cage or half cage and harnesses are a must, for safety obviously but also, being locked into a car really takes it to the next level on track.
Setting up a car is something I've always wanted to do, so it's nice to have ticked the box, I def like the idea of something designed for the job, but most of those are very high value. So I think I would do it again, but potentially I'd get a car that someone else has done, given how much you loose versus spend.
You can spend £15k on a car using the best motorsport mechanics with excellent reputation, who charge a small fortune in labour, the best brand new components, but if you bought for c£5k, you'll still probably struggle to sell it for much more than £6-7k, despite showing receipts and the fact that most of the major components are nearly new and probably better quality than the original bits.
If improving a car, also improved the value, I'd be more incentivised, but the whole time you're doing it, there is that nagging knowledge that you're literally burning money. With older cars, until hey start pulling things apart, you can never really know what needs changing, and a trip to a tuner can escalate rapidly. Plus it's easy (perhaps inevitable) to fall into the perfectionist trap, initially it's just the chassis....then the brakes, then more power, before you know it, you want to set up a race car with the finest parts money can buy.
Having said all of that, I know someone who lost £30k on a GT3 RS after one year of ownership and 5k miles, so unless you're buying something that's starting to appreciate, you'll either loose money setting it up or loose money in depreciation, it's generally not a cheap hobby.
Ignore the tyre bit. This Clio cost £2.5K I changed the belts myself, refurbished the front callipers myself, new rear ones and handbrake cables, new discs and two front springs and dampers. Oh, and a second hand aircon compressor. I had a garage replace a front hub. I drive it to and from work every day. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZQ8TLJH1yo
QBee said:
As Culpz says/implies, unless you intend to empty your wallet each year, buy something that is already track ready, or designed that way by the manufacturer.
Or, given that you have good experience of it already, another S2000?
Just spotted this on another thread:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ford-Fiesta-ST-150-2008...
Thanks for the top tips guys - Can't get another S2000 as one of the reasons of selling this idea to the Missus is that I can get the doggie in the boot! It's bad enough getting the smart remarks about the "useless" R8 I have in the garage!Or, given that you have good experience of it already, another S2000?
Just spotted this on another thread:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ford-Fiesta-ST-150-2008...
Edited by QBee on Wednesday 2nd December 20:27
Thanks C
I share your pain.
I would love to have another Lexus LS 400/430/460h for a daily, having already covered 200,000 happy miles in them, and you can buy them for just above shed money.
But we have two dogs who like to go everywhere with us. So it's estate cars for me.
I have an exemption for my track day car.
Even then, I had to take my border collie Sam with me on the TVR Peak District Thrills in the Hills run.
He started off not strapped in, but on the first firm brake application, he slid off the seat into the footwell and surfaced giving me a look of total surprise mixed with disgust, so after that he had to wear his harness.
Sam, in his preferred position....
I would love to have another Lexus LS 400/430/460h for a daily, having already covered 200,000 happy miles in them, and you can buy them for just above shed money.
But we have two dogs who like to go everywhere with us. So it's estate cars for me.
I have an exemption for my track day car.
Even then, I had to take my border collie Sam with me on the TVR Peak District Thrills in the Hills run.
He started off not strapped in, but on the first firm brake application, he slid off the seat into the footwell and surfaced giving me a look of total surprise mixed with disgust, so after that he had to wear his harness.
Sam, in his preferred position....
I've had all of them OP!
Megane is the best handling and the engine is punchy
Clio handles great too, but can be frustratingly slow
FN2 is a good all-rounder, good handling, good engine etc
How about an E46, 330ci or similar? Better chassis, decent power. Better than even an S2000 in my experience.
Megane is the best handling and the engine is punchy
Clio handles great too, but can be frustratingly slow
FN2 is a good all-rounder, good handling, good engine etc
How about an E46, 330ci or similar? Better chassis, decent power. Better than even an S2000 in my experience.
You may find an r26 Megane in budget, awesome cars and just get better the more you throw at them. LSD as standard, a remap will see 270 bhp. Mind was an awesome car with a handful of tweaks but don’t expect it to be trouble free. Very track orientated car even from the factory, don’t make the mistake of grouping them with the 225, they are completely different.
I think a lot will come down to whether you like the 8k rpm all power up top delivery or more torque down low.
I opted for an Megane r26 f1 230, though I'm yet to track it thanks to 2020. You should be able to get one sub4k, possibly pre modded for track. Be aware with the F4R and F4RT engines (yes, really are the engine codes), cambelt changes are involved. A garage will look for 600+ quid minimum and the tools are expensive to buy.
I opted for an Megane r26 f1 230, though I'm yet to track it thanks to 2020. You should be able to get one sub4k, possibly pre modded for track. Be aware with the F4R and F4RT engines (yes, really are the engine codes), cambelt changes are involved. A garage will look for 600+ quid minimum and the tools are expensive to buy.
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