Admitting Skill Limit: how to get better car control

[tigamilla]

I've been doing trackdays for just over 2 years and have done about 15 now. I feel like I'm improving with each outing but still have plenty to learn. I recently started using an M3 and have found that my previous AWD car was actually letting me get away with a of things that I cant anymore, that's gone some way towards improving track driving technique and definitely increased satisfaction level...

On Monday I was pushing quite hard while chasing an identical car at Bedford and I knew i was on the limit trail braking into the final sweeping bend before the pit entry - what I hadn't counted on was a faster stripped out car choosing that moment to overtake me on the outside of the *bend* especially as he had signaled for me to overtake him on the straight leading into the bend just moments before.

The surprise of seeing the car come up next to me in the mirror while still on the bend made me make a subconscious steering input to move away from it and that sent me into a spin just around the pit entry lane area. Luckily no damage and no car on car contact made. Apart from being annoyed with that car and myself for reacting that way - it made me realize that my reactionary inputs were way too big and just unsettled the car...

How have people finessed the spin / skid control? Or is there anywhere in the South East to take your own car to practice / get tuition / have some fun while improving spin / skid control?

[Arklight]

Mercedes benz world at brooklands used to do skid pan training. I think it is still incorporated in some of their packages.

Rockingham also used to do car control training with one of the vehicles with the adjustable gimble/rig thing to create skids.

[timbo999]

Goodwood have a skid pan and you get to use BMWs (140s I suspect, although they do have M2s and M4s).

[V8RX7]

The old fashioned way... with lessor cars with lower limits of grip

Go buy a Mk1 MX5 with 185 tyres and have a play - everything happens much slower

[MDifficult]

tigamilla said:

How have people finessed the spin / skid control? Or is there anywhere in the South East to take your own car to practice / get tuition / have some fun while improving spin / skid control?

Gary Marsh does outstanding on-limit coaching in your own car at Abingdon airfield.

Can’t recommend him enough - and depending on what you want to spend and if you’ve got friends who want to learn a similar thing, he can bespoke the whole day to your particular needs.

Wish I’d done it years ago and a few hundred quid well spent.

[Elderly]

I did this with Andy Walsh a few years ago, I found it extremely useful: https://www.carlimits.com/

[upsidedownmark]

Carlimits is probably a good shout. TBH I think a skidpan is not really relevant. Yes, it's sliding a car - it's good for getting the idea of stuff like countersteering and correction strategies, but it is low speed, low load, high slide stuff, not high speed, high load, low angle stuff which you'll be seeing on track.

Obviously, that should not have happened - hope it was reported to the staff. Not for being a snitch, but because if the other car keeps doing that, it will end in tears. However - are you sure it was really alongside (in your mirror?) - it's pretty hard to get alongside someone there unless they slow down massively, and if you were 'on the limit in an identical car', it seems doubly unrealistic - perhaps it wasn't quite as you thought? I've certainly been relatively close to someone through there typically when they have a faster car (straights and over a lap), but aren't so quick around the corners.. you let them through, but it takes a while for them to get away, and those two corners (last two on the GT) are SO much faster than most realise..

The point about awareness and being surprised is a good one - however a large percentage of trackday drivers are so focussed on going forwards / using so much of their capacity to drive that they have little capacity for awareness of what's happening around them. That's one good reason for the 'don't pass people in corners' rules. It's also a good thing to bear in mind when actually passing! Definitely a valuable area to work on..

For the rest, I'd just practice on track. Nothing crazy, but try changing your line in corners & driving non-optimal lines - it's simple enough to decide you're going to back out and leave a car width on exit. Drive into a corner off line and vary your speed etc. Starting small and moving up you can get a feel for how big a change you can make and how much starts to upset the car..

Edited by upsidedownmark on Thursday 6th August 09:58

[tigamilla]

Thanks - appreciate the insights and suggestions - I think carlimits looks like the best option, will try them a call today and see.

upsidedownmark said:

Obviously, that should not have happened - hope it was reported to the staff. Not for being a snitch, but because if the other car keeps doing that, it will end in tears. However - are you sure it was really alongside (in your mirror?) - it's pretty hard to get alongside someone there unless they slow down massively, and if you were 'on the limit in an identical car', it seems doubly unrealistic - perhaps it wasn't quite as you thought? I've certainly been relatively close to someone through there typically when they have a faster car (straights and over a lap), but aren't so quick around the corners.. you let them through, but it takes a while for them to get away, and those two corners (last two on the GT) are SO much faster than most realise..

Edited by upsidedownmark on Thursday 6th August 09:58

Very good points, but I was focused on chasing down an identical car that was in front of me. It was a stripped out 330 ci + massive wing that seemed to have a significant power to weight advantage that did the naughty. I was doubly confused because his actions indicating for me to pass him on the final straight had led me to believe that he was going into the pit lane. He was undoubtedly much faster, but I was absolutely NOT expecting to see him reappear where he did - in my mind he was behind and to my right setting up for the pit lane! I guess just like road, predictable actions are safer.

Awareness definitely needs work - and I also regret not reporting the car, it took me sometime to process what happened and then I thought it was just better to get back out there and prove to myself that I can do the same corner over and over safely.

I wish I could review what happened - I had my Go Pro but it wasn't on at the time (d'oh).

[james_gt3rs]

Carlimits day a good way to practice, as you get better you'll feel the car better and sooner... common mistake is to not feel it tending towards breaking away, and then react too late and have too much to do, when a smaller correction earlier would have been easy. Seat time the only way to get better I think.

[the_stoat]

V8RX7 said:

The old fashioned way... with lessor cars with lower limits of grip

Go buy a Mk1 MX5 with 185 tyres and have a play - everything happens much slower

I could not agree more, I have never had more fun on track than in a MX5. It is such a placid thing that you get time to react as opposed to my far more track focused Westfield that actually requires fighter pilot reactions to catch.

[tigamilla]

the_stoat said:

V8RX7 said:

The old fashioned way... with lessor cars with lower limits of grip

Go buy a Mk1 MX5 with 185 tyres and have a play - everything happens much slower

I could not agree more, I have never had more fun on track than in a MX5. It is such a placid thing that you get time to react as opposed to my far more track focused Westfield that actually requires fighter pilot reactions to catch.

I wish I had thought of this a few years ago but I was stuck in that car mindset of MOAAARR power is better (it's really not). I think at this point any further car changes / swaps would lead to girlfriend delete

[hilts uk]

You can book the skidpan in your own car for an hour at Thruxton. As others have said it may be more to do with vision and confidence than car control. I span in a race at the weekend in a Caterham race because the car in front span causing me to lift. It was an impulse reaction which was uncessary when you look at the video, but only through spending more time on track in close proximity to other cars will I get better at avoiding these novice errors.

[handbraketurn]

MDifficult said:

tigamilla said:

How have people finessed the spin / skid control? Or is there anywhere in the South East to take your own car to practice / get tuition / have some fun while improving spin / skid control?

Gary Marsh does outstanding on-limit coaching in your own car at Abingdon airfield.

Can’t recommend him enough - and depending on what you want to spend and if you’ve got friends who want to learn a similar thing, he can bespoke the whole day to your particular needs.

Wish I’d done it years ago and a few hundred quid well spent.

Is that where Drift limits is?

Haven't done coaching with Gary Marsh but this sounds more useful than the wet skid pans, I have done a couple and it's not the same spinning up a high powered car on wet low traction surfaces at relatively slow speed. Yes, you can learn how the car reacts and what inputs need to do to counter which is not totally un-useful, but you miss out on the violent force off sudden loss (and sudden regain) of traction from rubber on tarmac in the dry at high speeds, the engine and tyre noise and centrifugal forces you're subjected too etc.

Part of any sport where you need to learn a skill, you have to immerse yourself in it enough, that you become relaxed even under pressure and your responses are as automatic as possible. Which is why karting is useful.

I think I would honestly learn much more being left to my own devices in an empty airfield, just ragging a car I am familiar with around some cones and deliberately unsettling it and learning the nack or catching and correcting it by trail and error. And doing it as much as possible until those reactions become second nature and intuitive. A little coaching with some practice time would be prefect for me, wouldn't waste time and money on skid pans personally.

Edited by handbraketurn on Thursday 6th August 20:20

[V8RX7]

Part of any sport where you need to learn a skill, you have to immerse yourself in it enough, that you become relaxed even under pressure and your responses are as automatic as possible. Which is why karting is useful.

I think I would honestly learn much more being left to my own devices in an empty airfield, just ragging a car I am familiar with around some cones and deliberately unsettling it and learning the nack or catching and correcting it by trail and error. And doing it as much as possible until those reactions become second nature and intuitive.
[/quote]

^^^ This is how I learnt at 17 in a Mk2 Escort, if you survived a winter on 155 tyres, you'd mastered it

[MDifficult]

handbraketurn said:

MDifficult said:

tigamilla said:

How have people finessed the spin / skid control? Or is there anywhere in the South East to take your own car to practice / get tuition / have some fun while improving spin / skid control?

Gary Marsh does outstanding on-limit coaching in your own car at Abingdon airfield.

Can’t recommend him enough - and depending on what you want to spend and if you’ve got friends who want to learn a similar thing, he can bespoke the whole day to your particular needs.

Wish I’d done it years ago and a few hundred quid well spent.

Is that where Drift limits is?

Haven't done coaching with Gary Marsh but this sounds more useful than the wet skid pans, I have done a couple and it's not the same spinning up a high powered car on wet low traction surfaces at relatively slow speed. Yes, you can learn how the car reacts and what inputs need to do to counter which is not totally un-useful, but you miss out on the violent force off sudden loss (and sudden regain) of traction from rubber on tarmac in the dry at high speeds, the engine and tyre noise and centrifugal forces you're subjected too etc.

Part of any sport where you need to learn a skill, you have to immerse yourself in it enough, that you become relaxed even under pressure and your responses are as automatic as possible. Which is why karting is useful.

I think I would honestly learn much more being left to my own devices in an empty airfield, just ragging a car I am familiar with around some cones and deliberately unsettling it and learning the nack or catching and correcting it by trail and error. And doing it as much as possible until those reactions become second nature and intuitive. A little coaching with some practice time would be prefect for me, wouldn't waste time and money on skid pans personally.

Edited by handbraketurn on Thursday 6th August 20:20

I hear you,

Never done a skid pan and I’m sure it’s got it’s benefits, but airfield coaching is a lot broader.

IMHO I think a lot of people are a little naive to believe they can teach themselves through pure trial and error. Like anything in life, you’ll almost certainly teach yourself as many bad habits as good.

Even F1 drivers have driver coaching from time to time, not because they don’t know what they’re doing, but because sometimes you can’t see what you can’t see.

As I say, each to their own, but I would seriously recommend some professional coaching to anyone who wants to become really good at anything!

I’ve yet to meet anyone who’s taken part in driver coaching who hasn’t raved about how much they learned - and it’s usually less than the cost of a set of tyres or a remap!

[FurtiveFreddy]

Gary Marsh is by far the best suggestion so far.
A skid pan is too little speed and grip to be of benefit to the OP.
Car Limits is OK but you won't get anywhere near as much actual coaching/instruction because you'll be in a bigger group with a lower driver/instructor ratio.

[NGRhodes]

In addition to what has been mentioned, possibly you were not relaxed enough (too tense) contributing to the over reaction.

[handbraketurn]

MDifficult said:

handbraketurn said:

MDifficult said:

tigamilla said:

How have people finessed the spin / skid control? Or is there anywhere in the South East to take your own car to practice / get tuition / have some fun while improving spin / skid control?

Gary Marsh does outstanding on-limit coaching in your own car at Abingdon airfield.

Can’t recommend him enough - and depending on what you want to spend and if you’ve got friends who want to learn a similar thing, he can bespoke the whole day to your particular needs.

Wish I’d done it years ago and a few hundred quid well spent.

Is that where Drift limits is?

Haven't done coaching with Gary Marsh but this sounds more useful than the wet skid pans, I have done a couple and it's not the same spinning up a high powered car on wet low traction surfaces at relatively slow speed. Yes, you can learn how the car reacts and what inputs need to do to counter which is not totally un-useful, but you miss out on the violent force off sudden loss (and sudden regain) of traction from rubber on tarmac in the dry at high speeds, the engine and tyre noise and centrifugal forces you're subjected too etc.

Part of any sport where you need to learn a skill, you have to immerse yourself in it enough, that you become relaxed even under pressure and your responses are as automatic as possible. Which is why karting is useful.

I think I would honestly learn much more being left to my own devices in an empty airfield, just ragging a car I am familiar with around some cones and deliberately unsettling it and learning the nack or catching and correcting it by trail and error. And doing it as much as possible until those reactions become second nature and intuitive. A little coaching with some practice time would be prefect for me, wouldn't waste time and money on skid pans personally.

Edited by handbraketurn on Thursday 6th August 20:20

I hear you,

Never done a skid pan and I’m sure it’s got it’s benefits, but airfield coaching is a lot broader.

IMHO I think a lot of people are a little naive to believe they can teach themselves through pure trial and error. Like anything in life, you’ll almost certainly teach yourself as many bad habits as good.

Even F1 drivers have driver coaching from time to time, not because they don’t know what they’re doing, but because sometimes you can’t see what you can’t see.

As I say, each to their own, but I would seriously recommend some professional coaching to anyone who wants to become really good at anything!

I’ve yet to meet anyone who’s taken part in driver coaching who hasn’t raved about how much they learned - and it’s usually less than the cost of a set of tyres or a remap!

Yup, agree, a bit of both is the best solution.

[_Neal_]

FurtiveFreddy said:

Car Limits is OK but you won't get anywhere near as much actual coaching/instruction because you'll be in a bigger group with a lower driver/instructor ratio.

Car limits do 2 and 4 person days as well as the larger group days. They are really good (did mine years ago with Andy Walsh).

[Cupra Black]

Im going to be a similar position when i change my AWD track car (or it dies).

You can get away with a lot, esp when its wet.