The restrictive rules are frustrating
Discussion
After having done 2 track days now, one at bedford and another at Donington, the fact that you're not allowed, under any circumstances, to pull skids, is really grating on me.
Hear me out.
If the individual is clearly not harming anyone, or near other cars and is clearly in control, why on earth is oversteering a car on purpose any different to some guy in a FWD Civic understeering away as they exit a corner.
I find it absurd that we cannot enjoy our cars, even on a flipping track, when we're not near other cars. A track where others are timing themselves when they shouldn't be, or being impatient - far more serious issues, in which i've seen no evidence of marshals controlling properly.
What is the point of buying a powerful RWD car if we cannot get it moving about?
How is applying purposeful oversteer on exit, any different to someone balancing their car going into a corner?
How about this - as a stronger argument then, if you don't accept the above: you're letting individuals go on track, with vastly different skillsets, go on track, together, with absolutely no prior knowledge of their competence. Is that not a far bigger threat to everyone than someone who is innocently having fun in their car around a few corners, on the odd lap or 2?
I don't see any Marshall telling off a driver for losing it and binning their car in the gravel pit and causing a red flag - why aren't those drivers told to drive within their limits, for the safety of everyone else concerned?
Well - that would be draconian - and even I wouldn't support that. We've all paid for track time, specifically because we cannot find out the performance of our cars on any public roads - with good reason.
After one of my stints at Donington the marshall had a polite word with me saying "i've been told you were drifting at Coppice? This is not a drift day, its a track day".
...........rrrrriigght. So how much angle exactly am i allowed with my car then. Or can i just proclaim that it was unintentional oversteer and i was purely reacting? Seems to me that that is just as legitimate a position to take.
i'm just fed up of it, completely. This country in some circumstances, seems so restrictive. Land is already at a premium with about 10 people owning everything, the track is supposed to be the one final place of freedom, and even when we get to a point where we can take our cars to a track to enjoy them, and we STILL cannot Truely enjoy them.
In the past when i've been to America a few times to visit friends and been on track days there they are So much more laid back about it all.
I also find it odd that this kind of restrictive culture seems to be willingly accepted. Yes sure, buy your 400bhp RWD road cars, but don't use them folks! Not even on a track!
Rant over.
Hear me out.
If the individual is clearly not harming anyone, or near other cars and is clearly in control, why on earth is oversteering a car on purpose any different to some guy in a FWD Civic understeering away as they exit a corner.
I find it absurd that we cannot enjoy our cars, even on a flipping track, when we're not near other cars. A track where others are timing themselves when they shouldn't be, or being impatient - far more serious issues, in which i've seen no evidence of marshals controlling properly.
What is the point of buying a powerful RWD car if we cannot get it moving about?
How is applying purposeful oversteer on exit, any different to someone balancing their car going into a corner?
How about this - as a stronger argument then, if you don't accept the above: you're letting individuals go on track, with vastly different skillsets, go on track, together, with absolutely no prior knowledge of their competence. Is that not a far bigger threat to everyone than someone who is innocently having fun in their car around a few corners, on the odd lap or 2?
I don't see any Marshall telling off a driver for losing it and binning their car in the gravel pit and causing a red flag - why aren't those drivers told to drive within their limits, for the safety of everyone else concerned?
Well - that would be draconian - and even I wouldn't support that. We've all paid for track time, specifically because we cannot find out the performance of our cars on any public roads - with good reason.
After one of my stints at Donington the marshall had a polite word with me saying "i've been told you were drifting at Coppice? This is not a drift day, its a track day".
...........rrrrriigght. So how much angle exactly am i allowed with my car then. Or can i just proclaim that it was unintentional oversteer and i was purely reacting? Seems to me that that is just as legitimate a position to take.
i'm just fed up of it, completely. This country in some circumstances, seems so restrictive. Land is already at a premium with about 10 people owning everything, the track is supposed to be the one final place of freedom, and even when we get to a point where we can take our cars to a track to enjoy them, and we STILL cannot Truely enjoy them.
In the past when i've been to America a few times to visit friends and been on track days there they are So much more laid back about it all.
I also find it odd that this kind of restrictive culture seems to be willingly accepted. Yes sure, buy your 400bhp RWD road cars, but don't use them folks! Not even on a track!
Rant over.
Edited by wioifoiee on Friday 17th July 16:59
If you want to 'pull skids', go and do a drift day.
I think it also depends on the type of track day you're doing. For example there seems to be more leeway with getting the back end out at some of the Evo magazine track evenings i have attended but they are far quieter than a normal day and pull in a certain level of customer.
I think the other issue is that if you start allowing a bit of drifting, it won't just be people doing it who have the skill and also look around first to make sure the track is clear around them. You will start getting idiots doing it and causing accidents, getting in the way, finding out they don't actually have the skill.
As for people who bin it, i'm pretty sure most of them will probably be told to make sure they drive within their limits. I know after i had a spin at Bedford i was asked to give the car a check over before going back out.
I think it also depends on the type of track day you're doing. For example there seems to be more leeway with getting the back end out at some of the Evo magazine track evenings i have attended but they are far quieter than a normal day and pull in a certain level of customer.
I think the other issue is that if you start allowing a bit of drifting, it won't just be people doing it who have the skill and also look around first to make sure the track is clear around them. You will start getting idiots doing it and causing accidents, getting in the way, finding out they don't actually have the skill.
As for people who bin it, i'm pretty sure most of them will probably be told to make sure they drive within their limits. I know after i had a spin at Bedford i was asked to give the car a check over before going back out.
One of the issues, and particularly at Bedford, is noise. The circuits are under strict noise limits and drifting can generate noise on a frequency that means you can hear it from further afield than engine noises.
I don't know how they get away with drifting days, they perhaps use their "noisy days" allowance.
I find that marshalls differentiate a bit of accidental slip and obvious attempts to drift.
I don't know how they get away with drifting days, they perhaps use their "noisy days" allowance.
I find that marshalls differentiate a bit of accidental slip and obvious attempts to drift.
sideshowfred said:
If you want to 'pull skids', go and do a drift day.
I think it also depends on the type of track day you're doing. For example there seems to be more leeway with getting the back end out at some of the Evo magazine track evenings i have attended but they are far quieter than a normal day and pull in a certain level of customer.
I think the other issue is that if you start allowing a bit of drifting, it won't just be people doing it who have the skill and also look around first to make sure the track is clear around them. You will start getting idiots doing it and causing accidents, getting in the way, finding out they don't actually have the skill.
As for people who bin it, i'm pretty sure most of them will probably be told to make sure they drive within their limits. I know after i had a spin at Bedford i was asked to give the car a check over before going back out.
You're missing the guys point. I completely share in his frustration. I also found at Bedford and Donnington they are very anti drift.I think it also depends on the type of track day you're doing. For example there seems to be more leeway with getting the back end out at some of the Evo magazine track evenings i have attended but they are far quieter than a normal day and pull in a certain level of customer.
I think the other issue is that if you start allowing a bit of drifting, it won't just be people doing it who have the skill and also look around first to make sure the track is clear around them. You will start getting idiots doing it and causing accidents, getting in the way, finding out they don't actually have the skill.
As for people who bin it, i'm pretty sure most of them will probably be told to make sure they drive within their limits. I know after i had a spin at Bedford i was asked to give the car a check over before going back out.
We're not talking about lock stops, plumes of smoke and linking the whole circuit. We're talking about a bit of slip, a little bit of rear movement on the exit of a corner. Done when you have checked infront and behind and there are no cars close to me.
The point about dodgy drivers is also true, I've had people dive bomb me in braking zones, overtake on the wrong side, etc, and despite reporting these particular instances to the marshalls, nothing was done.
In one particular incident at Bedford in June, there was a Civic that was dropping liquid on the track. I don't know what it was, it was either water / coolant / water meth / screenwash , it was very clearly coming from the drivers side front wheel area.
As it was a dry day, slicks were in use by some cars, reported to the marshals " OH, we'll keep an eye on him " - NOTHING.
Where as to me that would be an immediate black flag for a quick check over / chat .
However I got told off for doing this - https://www.instagram.com/p/CBq9GrXncgv/ and this is the kind of "drifting" that I would imagine OP is talking about.
The chap at donny told me if you drift again you're going home. I said well what constitutes drifting? it's pissing with rain and 350hp. Not to mention, Donnington grip levels vary a HUGE amount with jet fuel spillage also. My friend got black flagged for going sideways in his M3. I saw the video. He didn't hoof it, it was a constant throttle, and it just went on him.
"Oh, we'll be the judge of that" - right, so you're basically making it up as you go along....
Anglesey and Snetterton have never had any issues, when track clear. silverstone were fine too (from Silverstone : https://www.instagram.com/p/B8J_wn3HWQN/)
I got told off at Anglesey once as a car was behind me, they said just to make sure no cars were about... although, this may have changed with the Corona bull s
te which no doubt has some impact. Certainly Bedford has always been anti drift. Edited by xjay1337 on Friday 17th July 18:06
HustleRussell said:
If you want to 'pull skids', as you say in your OP, book a drift day
If you aren't 'drifting', then you are fine.
alright then.If you aren't 'drifting', then you are fine.
Here was the offending 2 laps.
(ignore the silly commentary, i made it for simracers).
Now, you will notice the following
- no one behind, or infront of me.
- nowhere am i slowing the car down just in order to drift
- the skids are all part of the lap, i'm Still taking the appropriate racing line, and i'm carrying momentum through.
- apparently the marshall thinks that was 'drifting through coppice'. REALLY? IS that what he thinks drifting is?
How is that dangerous? Oh thats right, it isn't. I'm having fun in my car. Throw me in jail and lock away the key.
I don't want to do drift days, because driving around at 50mph around cones going sideways isn't particularly skillful or fun, not in my car anyway.
I grew up watching people like Tiff Needel, Chris harris and Steve sutcliffe.
But no - BANNED. Oh but - guy in a blue honda integra going all over the place directly infront of people causing havoc?? Yup, FINE, All Good!
Edited by wioifoiee on Friday 17th July 18:29
"How about this - as a stronger argument then, if you don't accept the above: you're letting individuals go on track, with vastly different skillsets, go on track, together, with absolutely no prior knowledge of their competence."
... Then let that same group of drivers experiment with over steer?! - Enough red flags as it is thanks. Never mind someone still sideways across the track after loosing it when I come round the corner.
... Then let that same group of drivers experiment with over steer?! - Enough red flags as it is thanks. Never mind someone still sideways across the track after loosing it when I come round the corner.
4.7 said:
"How about this - as a stronger argument then, if you don't accept the above: you're letting individuals go on track, with vastly different skillsets, go on track, together, with absolutely no prior knowledge of their competence."
... Then let that same group of drivers experiment with over steer?! - Enough red flags as it is thanks. Never mind someone still sideways across the track after loosing it when I come round the corner.
sure. for those drivers, they shouldn't be skidding around.... Then let that same group of drivers experiment with over steer?! - Enough red flags as it is thanks. Never mind someone still sideways across the track after loosing it when I come round the corner.
For drivers that evidently can, should be allowed to do what they want. We won't be causing the red flags.
Also......if a driver is losing it going sideways - how is that any different to any other red flag.
Thats kinda my point, isn't it.
I know what you mean. I feel the same way. I'm not talking about drifting but just allowing a little bit of slip as you carry speed in a corner.
I wouldn't do that on a public road and those not in the known would say you should reserve that kind of antics for track days.
You grow up watching top gear and fifth gear and think that must be so cool to be able slide a car on a track day. Then you get the chance to go on track and are told no you cannot slide.
So yes it is such a disappointment when you own a performance car but are not allowed a level of freedom in it even off public roads.
I wouldn't do that on a public road and those not in the known would say you should reserve that kind of antics for track days.
You grow up watching top gear and fifth gear and think that must be so cool to be able slide a car on a track day. Then you get the chance to go on track and are told no you cannot slide.
So yes it is such a disappointment when you own a performance car but are not allowed a level of freedom in it even off public roads.
wioifoiee said:
How is that dangerous? Oh thats right, it isn't. I'm having fun in my car. Throw me in jail and lock away the key.
I think the strawman argument weakens your position. But not as much as the video. It's their rules : no drifting (which is clearly audible in the video). They do it to protect themselves from a noise emergence point of view and I don't blame them as that also protects access to the track for track day regulars like me. If you let people drift then this will give locals good grounds to say that the circuit is not complying.
I appreciate it's frustrating from your point of view.
wioifoiee said:
HustleRussell said:
If you want to 'pull skids', as you say in your OP, book a drift day
If you aren't 'drifting', then you are fine.
alright then.If you aren't 'drifting', then you are fine.
Here was the offending 2 laps.
(ignore the silly commentary, i made it for simracers).
Now, you will notice the following
- no one behind, or infront of me.
- nowhere am i slowing the car down just in order to drift
- the skids are all part of the lap, i'm Still taking the appropriate racing line, and i'm carrying momentum through.
- apparently the marshall thinks that was 'drifting through coppice'. REALLY? IS that what he thinks drifting is?
How is that dangerous? Oh thats right, it isn't. I'm having fun in my car. Throw me in jail and lock away the key.
I don't want to do drift days, because driving around at 50mph around cones going sideways isn't particularly skillful or fun, not in my car anyway.
I grew up watching people like Tiff Needel, Chris harris and Steve sutcliffe.
But no - BANNED. Oh but - guy in a blue honda integra going all over the place directly infront of people causing havoc?? Yup, FINE, All Good!
"Trying to provoke the back end with multiple stabs of the throttle"
"Nice slide on the exit"
"Let's try and get another drift going"
nickfrog said:
I think the strawman argument weakens your position. But not as much as the video.
It's their rules : no drifting (which is clearly audible in the video). They do it to protect themselves from a noise emergence point of view and I don't blame them as that also protects access to the track for track day regulars like me. If you let people drift then this will give locals good grounds to say that the circuit is not complying.
I appreciate it's frustrating from your point of view.
well that is an argument i Can engage with. It's their rules : no drifting (which is clearly audible in the video). They do it to protect themselves from a noise emergence point of view and I don't blame them as that also protects access to the track for track day regulars like me. If you let people drift then this will give locals good grounds to say that the circuit is not complying.
I appreciate it's frustrating from your point of view.
if its about the noise that screeching tyres make then, you know what, fair enough, i suppose.
i guess i'll have to go to anglesey.
wioifoiee said:
HustleRussell said:
I only watched the first 80s of the video but the commentary included the following phrases
"Trying to provoke the back end with multiple stabs of the throttle"
"Let's see if we can get another drift going"
yes. What is your point? "Trying to provoke the back end with multiple stabs of the throttle"
"Let's see if we can get another drift going"
Also, you're now just trying to prolong to generate hits on your YouTube channel aren't you.
HustleRussell said:
Put the pieces together man, it's all there.
Also, you're now just trying to prolong to generate hits on your YouTube channel aren't you.
yes thats right, because if i wanted to do that, a small thread on pistonheads is exactly how i'd go about it. Also, you're now just trying to prolong to generate hits on your YouTube channel aren't you.
you got me, damn.
wioifoiee said:
if its about the noise that screeching tyres make then, you know what, fair enough, i suppose.
I got black flagged a couple of times at Blyton Park a good few years ago for the noise, I wasn't drifting it was just the front and back tyres complaining.The discussion concluded with them asking me to just drive slower.
At the time I wasn't happy, not allowed to drive fast at a track day?
I gave up after that and had to go home early.
Dunc.
xjay1337 said:
You're missing the guys point. I completely share in his frustration. I also found at Bedford and Donnington they are very anti drift.
We're not talking about lock stops, plumes of smoke and linking the whole circuit. We're talking about a bit of slip, a little bit of rear movement on the exit of a corner. Done when you have checked infront and behind and there are no cars close to me.
The point about dodgy drivers is also true, I've had people dive bomb me in braking zones, overtake on the wrong side, etc, and despite reporting these particular instances to the marshalls, nothing was done.
In one particular incident at Bedford in June, there was a Civic that was dropping liquid on the track. I don't know what it was, it was either water / coolant / water meth / screenwash , it was very clearly coming from the drivers side front wheel area.
As it was a dry day, slicks were in use by some cars, reported to the marshals " OH, we'll keep an eye on him " - NOTHING.
Where as to me that would be an immediate black flag for a quick check over / chat .
However I got told off for doing this - https://www.instagram.com/p/CBq9GrXncgv/ and this is the kind of "drifting" that I would imagine OP is talking about.
The chap at donny told me if you drift again you're going home. I said well what constitutes drifting? it's pissing with rain and 350hp. Not to mention, Donnington grip levels vary a HUGE amount with jet fuel spillage also. My friend got black flagged for going sideways in his M3. I saw the video. He didn't hoof it, it was a constant throttle, and it just went on him.
"Oh, we'll be the judge of that" - right, so you're basically making it up as you go along....
Anglesey and Snetterton have never had any issues, when track clear. silverstone were fine too (from Silverstone : https://www.instagram.com/p/B8J_wn3HWQN/)
I got told off at Anglesey once as a car was behind me, they said just to make sure no cars were about... although, this may have changed with the Corona bull ste which no doubt has some impact. Certainly Bedford has always been anti drift.
I don't think I am missing the point. In the briefings if you pay attention it's normally syas something along the lines of 'No prolonged drifting'. Now I read that as if you end up with a bit of oversteer on corner exit then fine. But in that first video at Bedford the car has clearly been provoked into a prolonged drift. If you want to do this kind of drifting bugger off to a drift day.We're not talking about lock stops, plumes of smoke and linking the whole circuit. We're talking about a bit of slip, a little bit of rear movement on the exit of a corner. Done when you have checked infront and behind and there are no cars close to me.
The point about dodgy drivers is also true, I've had people dive bomb me in braking zones, overtake on the wrong side, etc, and despite reporting these particular instances to the marshalls, nothing was done.
In one particular incident at Bedford in June, there was a Civic that was dropping liquid on the track. I don't know what it was, it was either water / coolant / water meth / screenwash , it was very clearly coming from the drivers side front wheel area.
As it was a dry day, slicks were in use by some cars, reported to the marshals " OH, we'll keep an eye on him " - NOTHING.
Where as to me that would be an immediate black flag for a quick check over / chat .
However I got told off for doing this - https://www.instagram.com/p/CBq9GrXncgv/ and this is the kind of "drifting" that I would imagine OP is talking about.
The chap at donny told me if you drift again you're going home. I said well what constitutes drifting? it's pissing with rain and 350hp. Not to mention, Donnington grip levels vary a HUGE amount with jet fuel spillage also. My friend got black flagged for going sideways in his M3. I saw the video. He didn't hoof it, it was a constant throttle, and it just went on him.
"Oh, we'll be the judge of that" - right, so you're basically making it up as you go along....
Anglesey and Snetterton have never had any issues, when track clear. silverstone were fine too (from Silverstone : https://www.instagram.com/p/B8J_wn3HWQN/)
I got told off at Anglesey once as a car was behind me, they said just to make sure no cars were about... although, this may have changed with the Corona bull s
te which no doubt has some impact. Certainly Bedford has always been anti drift. Edited by xjay1337 on Friday 17th July 18:06
Having also watched about a minute of the Op's video, 1:10 onwards is more than enough evidence, it's very clear that he is purposely trying to drift the car. This isn't a case of 'I gave it a bit too much throttle'. Its a clear drift for everyone to see. I dont see how you can argue that what was happening wasn't on purpose drifting on a day when it's very clear drifting isn't allowed.
OP, you also say that if you have the skills you should be allowed to do what you want. Utter nonsense, by that reckoning I could say that because I have racing brake pads fitted whilst on track I should be able to dive bomb up the inside of standard car into a corner as my car is equipt to do so. Who would police who had the 'skill' or not for certain situations?
Edited by sideshowfred on Friday 17th July 22:39
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