How much steering lock?
Discussion
Do I need to steer more to beat understeer?
Car is an Impreza. Usually I will turn the wheel to the point I get tyre squeal and a bit of slip and just keep it at that point. Seems to have done me well over the years in not trashing tyres and being on the pace.
Last 2 trackdays I’ve run a different set of tyres expecting them to be quicker but they were terrible, squeal and understeer at lower speeds.
Got to the point where I was fed up with them and just wanging on the lock to try and wear them out. Weirdly I thought they started to feel better at that point but have no lap times to confirm. Didn’t think much of it until recently I’ve been watching some vids on YouTube of similar cars and noticed the pro racing drivers have got to the point of squeal like I did but have carried on and added another 1/4+ turn of lock.
Is this a known technique that I’ve managed to miss all these years? Just a coincidence? Or is it maybe that laps of squealing round and hard braking were not enough to get the heat into them and giving them absolute death got them into an operating window?
Car is an Impreza. Usually I will turn the wheel to the point I get tyre squeal and a bit of slip and just keep it at that point. Seems to have done me well over the years in not trashing tyres and being on the pace.
Last 2 trackdays I’ve run a different set of tyres expecting them to be quicker but they were terrible, squeal and understeer at lower speeds.
Got to the point where I was fed up with them and just wanging on the lock to try and wear them out. Weirdly I thought they started to feel better at that point but have no lap times to confirm. Didn’t think much of it until recently I’ve been watching some vids on YouTube of similar cars and noticed the pro racing drivers have got to the point of squeal like I did but have carried on and added another 1/4+ turn of lock.
Is this a known technique that I’ve managed to miss all these years? Just a coincidence? Or is it maybe that laps of squealing round and hard braking were not enough to get the heat into them and giving them absolute death got them into an operating window?
Normally adding lock should indeed exacerbate the saturation of the front tyres unless perhaps it helps getting the rear into play at the same time under power to rotate the car?
Did you try to trail brake on entry or increase your trail braking to try and stop the issue happening in the first place? (just a thought as I don't know how the car is set up).
Did you try to trail brake on entry or increase your trail braking to try and stop the issue happening in the first place? (just a thought as I don't know how the car is set up).
Most cars are setup from the factory to understeer.
My BMW 330i had a tendency to push in the corners, so I've had to adjust the setup to dial out the understeer, usually by increased front camber and a stiffer anti roll bar on the rear axle.
Adding more steering angle won't cure the problem, just increase the understeer, moreso in a 4WD if you're not on the power.
Would suggest you investigate what your car's alignment is, and some research and cross referencing to investigate what's the best idea to combat it.
Did some initial googling and:
https://forums.mightycarmods.com/forum/technical/t...
https://scoobyparts.com/blog/whiteline-suspension-...
My BMW 330i had a tendency to push in the corners, so I've had to adjust the setup to dial out the understeer, usually by increased front camber and a stiffer anti roll bar on the rear axle.
Adding more steering angle won't cure the problem, just increase the understeer, moreso in a 4WD if you're not on the power.
Would suggest you investigate what your car's alignment is, and some research and cross referencing to investigate what's the best idea to combat it.
Did some initial googling and:
https://forums.mightycarmods.com/forum/technical/t...
https://scoobyparts.com/blog/whiteline-suspension-...
Common problem recanted back when these cars were newer. They are set up for understeer, to avoid people who cannot drive from binning it.
I always used to run thicker rear whiteline anti roll bar on my tracked Impreza's, which pretty much eliminated it, without machining the overall ride harsher. Its also adjustable with three hole settings.
Check out the normal places for second hand ones first, it was a popular mod and there is no point paying full price for something, if you don't need to.
I always used to run thicker rear whiteline anti roll bar on my tracked Impreza's, which pretty much eliminated it, without machining the overall ride harsher. Its also adjustable with three hole settings.
Check out the normal places for second hand ones first, it was a popular mod and there is no point paying full price for something, if you don't need to.
I do tend to trail brake. I have also done pretty much all I can chassis wise to help, without coilovers etc. Got the linked Whiteline stuff, ARB, camber bolts, ALK and had the wheel alignment done by a local specialist who sets up race cars and it runs max camber and caster available.
These values are quite low though up front I've only got -1.45 camber and I think the castor is about 3. Can't remember the toe setting off my head.
Interesting about Alonso's technique. Maybe I have stumbled upon that.
These values are quite low though up front I've only got -1.45 camber and I think the castor is about 3. Can't remember the toe setting off my head.
Interesting about Alonso's technique. Maybe I have stumbled upon that.
Get yourself some driver training. Spend a few hundred quid and you’ll never ask yourself (or us) these questions again. Every car you will ever drive will be way faster and way safer.
I’m not being an arse by the way. Good on you for asking questions and good on you for your interest/passion for driving.
I’m not being an arse by the way. Good on you for asking questions and good on you for your interest/passion for driving.
Never too old to learn. Is there anyone you guys would recommend speaking to on this issue?
I’ve had a fair bit of instruction over the years from race winners, series champions and I have a few friends who race nationally and internationally that have been out with me and never hinted at doing this technique or similar.
I’ve had a fair bit of instruction over the years from race winners, series champions and I have a few friends who race nationally and internationally that have been out with me and never hinted at doing this technique or similar.
RB Will said:
Never too old to learn. Is there anyone you guys would recommend speaking to on this issue?
I’ve had a fair bit of instruction over the years from race winners, series champions and I have a few friends who race nationally and internationally that have been out with me and never hinted at doing this technique or similar.
Steve H (above) is a very good instructor (and championship winning race driver), a day with him would be of benefit. I’ve had a fair bit of instruction over the years from race winners, series champions and I have a few friends who race nationally and internationally that have been out with me and never hinted at doing this technique or similar.
Understeering, like oversteering, is probably a bit more complicated than you understand.
This explanation is reduced to the MAX, so I’ve left loads out...so it’s not accurate, but it might do.
The answer to how much steering lock is not simple... so if someone gives you a simple answer it’s wrong.
My answer isn’t simple, but it’s fairly correct, I think.
You are driving your car around a roundabout...endlessly lapping, you’re not lost, you’re trying to figure out what the correct steering angle is to generate, say, maximum cornering speed.
You have 90 deg of steering lock on and you’re driving at 50 mph.
You try 95 deg of steering lock and you can now maintain 52 mph.
You try 100 deg of steering lock and now 53 mph is possible.
You try 110 deg of steering lock and 53.5 mph is possible
You try 125 deg of steering lock and 54 mph is possible.
To get to 55 mph you needed to wind on 180 deg of lock.
You are getting less and less additional speed for the additional front axle slip angle you are using.
The question is “how much do you hate your tyres?”
Now... at what angle did the understeer start? It’s not so clear, is it?
I’m assuming here you didn’t just go straight to 270 deg of steering lock... because that might just allow only 40 mph to be carried. That is HUGE understeer, which is simple to feel, so I doubt that your question was about that.
So, getting back on track, so to speak.
What do you want to achieve? Probably a controlled, consistent, fast lap time around a circuit.
You have to keep your tyres in good condition and gripping well. That means the temperature of each individual tyre has to be managed, which sounds more complicated than it is. Road tyres tread compounds overheat fairly quickly on a hot lap. In a car with a more understeer balance, the front tyres can heat up quickly if you are trying to get maximum cornering force for a long way through a corner with a lot of steering lock on...you are driving the car with too much steering lock, if the front tyres overheat to the point that your consistent lap times or safety suffer.
There are lots of things you can do with driving techniques to stop this (too hot front tyres from too much steering lock too often) from happening. Obviously, car setup is also important.
Sorry if this all sounded like rambling gibberish!
This explanation is reduced to the MAX, so I’ve left loads out...so it’s not accurate, but it might do.
The answer to how much steering lock is not simple... so if someone gives you a simple answer it’s wrong.
My answer isn’t simple, but it’s fairly correct, I think.
You are driving your car around a roundabout...endlessly lapping, you’re not lost, you’re trying to figure out what the correct steering angle is to generate, say, maximum cornering speed.
You have 90 deg of steering lock on and you’re driving at 50 mph.
You try 95 deg of steering lock and you can now maintain 52 mph.
You try 100 deg of steering lock and now 53 mph is possible.
You try 110 deg of steering lock and 53.5 mph is possible
You try 125 deg of steering lock and 54 mph is possible.
To get to 55 mph you needed to wind on 180 deg of lock.
You are getting less and less additional speed for the additional front axle slip angle you are using.
The question is “how much do you hate your tyres?”
Now... at what angle did the understeer start? It’s not so clear, is it?
I’m assuming here you didn’t just go straight to 270 deg of steering lock... because that might just allow only 40 mph to be carried. That is HUGE understeer, which is simple to feel, so I doubt that your question was about that.
So, getting back on track, so to speak.
What do you want to achieve? Probably a controlled, consistent, fast lap time around a circuit.
You have to keep your tyres in good condition and gripping well. That means the temperature of each individual tyre has to be managed, which sounds more complicated than it is. Road tyres tread compounds overheat fairly quickly on a hot lap. In a car with a more understeer balance, the front tyres can heat up quickly if you are trying to get maximum cornering force for a long way through a corner with a lot of steering lock on...you are driving the car with too much steering lock, if the front tyres overheat to the point that your consistent lap times or safety suffer.
There are lots of things you can do with driving techniques to stop this (too hot front tyres from too much steering lock too often) from happening. Obviously, car setup is also important.
Sorry if this all sounded like rambling gibberish!
Already some good advice in here, not much that I can add with my woeful level of experience other than I did a driver training day once in my Elise, very wet day and whilst waiting for some of the standing water to clear on the actual circuit we did some 'understeer experiments', going round in a circle adding speed/lock until the car gently understeered all the way around, then taking off the slightest bit of lock to find that the circle got tighter. Very counter intuitive on paper, but in hindsight is something that most people do instinctively on track (I think?)
You need to change car. An imprezza is biased towards understeer. Nearly the whole driveline is in front of the front axle.
Or learn scandanavian flick, but that's a bit hard at 80 on tarmac.
I had a mitsi evo 1 back in the day, and found that going slow in and power on waaaay before the apex to slide the rear was the way to go,(as well as geo,and a locking rear diff) but it needs total commitment,and at least 400 bhp.
Or learn scandanavian flick, but that's a bit hard at 80 on tarmac.
I had a mitsi evo 1 back in the day, and found that going slow in and power on waaaay before the apex to slide the rear was the way to go,(as well as geo,and a locking rear diff) but it needs total commitment,and at least 400 bhp.
Edited by fred bloggs on Friday 19th June 15:34
fred bloggs said:
You need to change car. An imprezza is biased towards understeer.
Or learn scandanavian flick, but that's a bit hard at 80 on tarmac.
It varies by model. The lesser ones have a more even split and pretty much only understeer. Mine is slightly more rear biased and will get the back end mobile on the power, as long as the tyres are not seemingly useless, and the ones with adjustable centre diffs are even more mobile.Or learn scandanavian flick, but that's a bit hard at 80 on tarmac.
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