Discussion
Please do redirect me if there is a thread somewhere but any shouts on a decent laptimer?
I am a beginner and have my second trackday at abingdon booked on 19th June and then will be looking into Brands Hatch Indy.
I am keen to record lap times whilst I am a newbie and whilst the car is pretty standard etc.
I dont know whether you can get half decent apps that use your phones GPS or whether you need to buy proper hardware to get something reliable?
Thanks
I am a beginner and have my second trackday at abingdon booked on 19th June and then will be looking into Brands Hatch Indy.
I am keen to record lap times whilst I am a newbie and whilst the car is pretty standard etc.
I dont know whether you can get half decent apps that use your phones GPS or whether you need to buy proper hardware to get something reliable?
Thanks
Not allowed and the'll come down on you with little to no tolerance if you're caught doing it.
However, the latest GoPros (and maybe others) include GPS Logging capabilities built in, combined with something like RaceRender you can retrospectively analyse your laps/times and this is difficult (impossible) for the TDO's to police.
However, the latest GoPros (and maybe others) include GPS Logging capabilities built in, combined with something like RaceRender you can retrospectively analyse your laps/times and this is difficult (impossible) for the TDO's to police.
Yeah, most done by Harrys Lap Timer (phone app) or Race Render.
With HLT you can either use your phone for filming and 'logging' all at once, meaning the overlay is done for you - or you can just have it logging hidden away in a glove box or whatever. You can then merge that log with external video from a gopro or whatever at a later date.
As you can imagine many people do this, but you won't find many people openly with a laptime delta on their dash as you sometimes see from race cars or test days, as if a marshall sees it - you're outta there.
With HLT you can either use your phone for filming and 'logging' all at once, meaning the overlay is done for you - or you can just have it logging hidden away in a glove box or whatever. You can then merge that log with external video from a gopro or whatever at a later date.
As you can imagine many people do this, but you won't find many people openly with a laptime delta on their dash as you sometimes see from race cars or test days, as if a marshall sees it - you're outta there.
I did have a frank discussion about this with a TDO employee towards the end of last year, specifically talking about the latest Porsche's that came with built in lap timing etc. There are also aftermarket dashboards that do it too (such as AIM etc), he agreed this made it very hard to police if not impossible. Also as I mentioned the new GoPros come with GPS logging capability built in, so although it doesn't show you a real time laptime, you can use that data to create fancy overlays and laptimes once you get home. The TDO didn't have an issue with that concept, because it's unlikely to influence your driving style on the day... but ultimately their liability insurance is void if people use timing equipment at a non-competition event so all they can do is appeal to the attendees to behave within the spirit of the rules, rather than go 'under ground' with hidden laptiming.
But still, many people do it. I've used HLT before to do overlays in the past but nowadays don't really see much benefit in it. I "time" my progress by just checking timestamps when editing my video footage.
But still, many people do it. I've used HLT before to do overlays in the past but nowadays don't really see much benefit in it. I "time" my progress by just checking timestamps when editing my video footage.
While everyone seems to be doing it these days and it drives me mad, however without an exemption permit, if the driver causes an incident and timing is found to be an issue then it's not just about the TDO's PLI but the driver is also criminally liable and on top of which if they were to injure a passenger it could get very nasty.
Nickjd said:
While everyone seems to be doing it these days and it drives me mad, however without an exemption permit, if the driver causes an incident and timing is found to be an issue then it's not just about the TDO's PLI but the driver is also criminally liable and on top of which if they were to injure a passenger it could get very nasty.
Don't be silly. OP, use HLT, works great for improving your driving. Just don't start chasing tenths and be discreet. I've used them for best part of 18 years.
Fonzey said:
Yeah, most done by Harrys Lap Timer (phone app) or Race Render.
With HLT you can either use your phone for filming and 'logging' all at once, meaning the overlay is done for you - or you can just have it logging hidden away in a glove box or whatever. You can then merge that log with external video from a gopro or whatever at a later date.
As you can imagine many people do this, but you won't find many people openly with a laptime delta on their dash as you sometimes see from race cars or test days, as if a marshall sees it - you're outta there.
Succinct. Accurate.With HLT you can either use your phone for filming and 'logging' all at once, meaning the overlay is done for you - or you can just have it logging hidden away in a glove box or whatever. You can then merge that log with external video from a gopro or whatever at a later date.
As you can imagine many people do this, but you won't find many people openly with a laptime delta on their dash as you sometimes see from race cars or test days, as if a marshall sees it - you're outta there.
Z4MCSL said:
I am a beginner and have my second trackday at abingdon booked on 19th June and then will be looking into Brands Hatch Indy.
All I can say to that is you clearly weren't listening to the brief then.Every TD I have ever been on specifically says in the brief, timing is not allowed.
VonSenger said:
Nickjd said:
While everyone seems to be doing it these days and it drives me mad, however without an exemption permit, if the driver causes an incident and timing is found to be an issue then it's not just about the TDO's PLI but the driver is also criminally liable and on top of which if they were to injure a passenger it could get very nasty.
Don't be silly. OP, use HLT, works great for improving your driving. Just don't start chasing tenths and be discreet. I've used them for best part of 18 years.
Nickjd said:
I am not saying that if seen using a lap timer that the police are going to be called. However as a TDO I can assure you that I am very conversant with the potential issues liabilites and exactly what the HSE would be doing in the event of a life changing or fatal incidents. It is not silly.
Whilst not making light of it, what would the HSE be doing and insert what circumstances?If the PLI has a specific exclusion for timing, that's not the same thing that says a driver timing is automatically in deep poo with H&S laws should there be an accident.
Just curious really. Also if timing isn't allowed as the track day can't be run without PLI, then people shouldn't do it.
Bert
BertBert said:
Whilst not making light of it, what would the HSE be doing and insert what circumstances?
If the PLI has a specific exclusion for timing, that's not the same thing that says a driver timing is automatically in deep poo with H&S laws should there be an accident.
Just curious really. Also if timing isn't allowed as the track day can't be run without PLI, then people shouldn't do it.
Bert
Because ultimately, without an exemption permit, Trackdays fall under the road traffic act, which applies to all vehicles used where public can gain access. No one gives a sIf the PLI has a specific exclusion for timing, that's not the same thing that says a driver timing is automatically in deep poo with H&S laws should there be an accident.
Just curious really. Also if timing isn't allowed as the track day can't be run without PLI, then people shouldn't do it.
Bert
t if you crash your car. Drive like a tt and kill someone, authorities will be involved. People signing a bit of paper saying they accept risks firstly does not mean it's Deathrace 2000 and secondly the risk you are supposedly accepting is that no one is timing and that you are following the TDO's instructions. The TDO may well be judged at fault for allowing a situation to happen but equally the driver will be too. I worked on a day once where a pair of drivers refused to come off circuit under a red flag competing a further 3 high speed laps and nearly hitting a marshal on circuit. I considered at one point putting the JCB out to stop them. If a driver so decides to do this, or ram another car off circuit deliberately then the fact the other car driver signed to say he knew there was a risk does not mean the first driver is free to do what they like. In the event of a serious issue, such as a fatality the HSE will look at everything including if the driver was following instructions and have total right to bring a criminal prosecution if they feel it is warranted. The issue from about 5 years ago at Snetterton where one driver was successfully taken to court for crashing into another car already in a gravel trap was done so on the basis the the second driver ignored flag signals. Meaning they ignored the rules. The case was civil becuse no one was hurt, make that a fatality and it will get taken further.i've been to a number of trackdays and noticed a pattern with the breifing and laptiming... always seems to be "taped up" or "no live in-car timing" etc.
almost like they allow timing from dash and HLT, RCP etc methods as long as it is not visible in car when on track.
that i can see as a real issue; delta's, sector times etc live in car will make you push harder. keep it to HLT/RCP which you can only really make use of away from the track and that seems someone typical practice.
i use timing for mods and improvement progress, not for the raw lap times. I change tyres, brakes, geometry then it's nice to see a real benefit that isnt placebo. I actualy forget i'm timing once out on track. i focus on lines and being safe. if laptimes improve then great, but it's not key to enjoying things out there.
Same reason i video record too - if i make a mistake or feel a difference in a corner, you dont have time to analyse it when you on the track. I actually did make a mistake through crainers at Donington on my last outing. Ended up with some opposite lock to correct and i dont know what happened at the time. Data logging showed i lifted off a bit too much with too much steering from other laps. now i know for next time so i dont end up with a £20k+ car upside down in the gravel.
almost like they allow timing from dash and HLT, RCP etc methods as long as it is not visible in car when on track.
that i can see as a real issue; delta's, sector times etc live in car will make you push harder. keep it to HLT/RCP which you can only really make use of away from the track and that seems someone typical practice.
i use timing for mods and improvement progress, not for the raw lap times. I change tyres, brakes, geometry then it's nice to see a real benefit that isnt placebo. I actualy forget i'm timing once out on track. i focus on lines and being safe. if laptimes improve then great, but it's not key to enjoying things out there.
Same reason i video record too - if i make a mistake or feel a difference in a corner, you dont have time to analyse it when you on the track. I actually did make a mistake through crainers at Donington on my last outing. Ended up with some opposite lock to correct and i dont know what happened at the time. Data logging showed i lifted off a bit too much with too much steering from other laps. now i know for next time so i dont end up with a £20k+ car upside down in the gravel.
Fonzey said:
I did have a frank discussion about this with a TDO employee towards the end of last year, specifically talking about the latest Porsche's that came with built in lap timing etc. There are also aftermarket dashboards that do it too (such as AIM etc)
The 350Z has one built in and they were about in 02 
Z4MCSL said:
I dont know whether you can get half decent apps that use your phones GPS or whether you need to buy proper hardware to get something reliable?
Thanks
if you decide to go with a phone based timer, builtin GPS is typically 1hz so wont be accurate. most android apps support the Garmin Glo reciever which is 10hz polling so vastly more accurate so take into account that cost at least.Thanks
then ODB2; i use the Carista dongle which seems to be a good polling rate vs cost solution, but i only use it to monitor IAT, rpm, boost and throttle position - fairly small PID count.
^ also another reason i record. clear improvements with IAT's on track and my post-turbo temps within 10c of ambient on track iirc.
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