MR2 @ Nurburgring - high speed stability
Discussion
Morning PHers
I'm planning to take my Mk3 MR2 (ZZW30) to the Nurburgring in a couple of months. Starting to think about how to set the car up alignment wise, and wondered if anyone's been out there in a fast light MR car (Exige maybe?)
The sections of the track I'm most concerned about are the fastest parts, Flugplatz to Adenau Forest, and then Pflanzgarten 2 onwards to the end. I'm going to get a GT rear wing for the crack to see if that helps out, but also thinking what I can do with the alignment.
High speed stability is the #1 goal, I think I'm asking a lot from the car and I know it will be a bit hectic but there are things that can be done, i.e:
To summarise, if anyone's done anything similar before in a small-ish MR car, how did you get on? I think a wing will be mandatory, I'm only geared to 139mph anyway so it shouldn't hurt in that regard. I'm looking to come away feeling satisfied with the car's performance rather than simply completing a lap
Should be fun!
cheers
Dan
I'm planning to take my Mk3 MR2 (ZZW30) to the Nurburgring in a couple of months. Starting to think about how to set the car up alignment wise, and wondered if anyone's been out there in a fast light MR car (Exige maybe?)
The sections of the track I'm most concerned about are the fastest parts, Flugplatz to Adenau Forest, and then Pflanzgarten 2 onwards to the end. I'm going to get a GT rear wing for the crack to see if that helps out, but also thinking what I can do with the alignment.
High speed stability is the #1 goal, I think I'm asking a lot from the car and I know it will be a bit hectic but there are things that can be done, i.e:
- More toe-in on the rear
- GT rear wing
- Staggering tyres (currently planning 205/50/15 all round but may go 225R)
To summarise, if anyone's done anything similar before in a small-ish MR car, how did you get on? I think a wing will be mandatory, I'm only geared to 139mph anyway so it shouldn't hurt in that regard. I'm looking to come away feeling satisfied with the car's performance rather than simply completing a lap
Should be fun!
cheers
Dan
Byker28i said:
I'm only geared to 139mph anyway...
Will a rear wing make any difference? I doubt you'll get near to that?
Does your car get unstable at speed? Have you tried an airfield run to check it before you adjust things?
It's an MR2, it doesn't feel stable at any speed. Will a rear wing make any difference? I doubt you'll get near to that?
Does your car get unstable at speed? Have you tried an airfield run to check it before you adjust things?
I'll be aiming to clip 6th limiter, I don't think I'll be far off that on the run down foxhole. Should be fun
Airfield run wouldn't prove much, I'm talking about the high speed transitions that happen at the 'ring and how to best plan for them with a small-ish MR car.
Last time I was there one of the cars in our group was a 340 bhp vx 220T.
You won’t need a rear wing unlesss you want it to look a bit fast and furious.
Staggered tyre set up absolutely yes. Made a big difference to my vx220 N/a which came out the factory with non staggered set up.
Best advice would be do some UK track days so you know exactly how it drives and play around with tyre pressures to get a good idea on how it reacts before setting off to the ring (where everything can go wrong very quickly and very expensively if you make a mistake.).
Whitelike 3 point adjustable ARB is a good upgrade and run in softest position.
You won’t need a rear wing unlesss you want it to look a bit fast and furious.
Staggered tyre set up absolutely yes. Made a big difference to my vx220 N/a which came out the factory with non staggered set up.
Best advice would be do some UK track days so you know exactly how it drives and play around with tyre pressures to get a good idea on how it reacts before setting off to the ring (where everything can go wrong very quickly and very expensively if you make a mistake.).
Whitelike 3 point adjustable ARB is a good upgrade and run in softest position.
rallycross said:
Best advice would be do some UK track days so you know exactly how it drives and play around with tyre pressures to get a good idea on how it reacts before setting off to the ring (where everything can go wrong very quickly and very expensively if you make a mistake.).
The other advice is to run several laps and build up the speed. I can't remember what I used now, probably rFactor, but there are racing simulators that will help you learn the track. It doesn't give a real impression of forces, inclines etc but you know which way the corners go, how tight etc.rallycross said:
Last time I was there one of the cars in our group was a 340 bhp vx 220T.
You won’t need a rear wing unlesss you want it to look a bit fast and furious.
Staggered tyre set up absolutely yes. Made a big difference to my vx220 N/a which came out the factory with non staggered set up.
Best advice would be do some UK track days so you know exactly how it drives and play around with tyre pressures to get a good idea on how it reacts before setting off to the ring (where everything can go wrong very quickly and very expensively if you make a mistake.).
Whitelike 3 point adjustable ARB is a good upgrade and run in softest position.
Thanks for the reply...You won’t need a rear wing unlesss you want it to look a bit fast and furious.
Staggered tyre set up absolutely yes. Made a big difference to my vx220 N/a which came out the factory with non staggered set up.
Best advice would be do some UK track days so you know exactly how it drives and play around with tyre pressures to get a good idea on how it reacts before setting off to the ring (where everything can go wrong very quickly and very expensively if you make a mistake.).
Whitelike 3 point adjustable ARB is a good upgrade and run in softest position.
Unfortunately as you know there isn't really a track in the UK with the same speed/gradients as you get over there. I'm at Cadwell Park in a couple of weeks to test the car and I think that's as close as I'll get.
Why do you say no to a rear wing? Last year I was there in a 46 M3 and the areas mentioned in the OP felt a bit slippy without one. A few of the chaps I was with had recently fitted them and complimented their advantage in these areas.
Byker28i said:
rallycross said:
Best advice would be do some UK track days so you know exactly how it drives and play around with tyre pressures to get a good idea on how it reacts before setting off to the ring (where everything can go wrong very quickly and very expensively if you make a mistake.).
The other advice is to run several laps and build up the speed. I can't remember what I used now, probably rFactor, but there are racing simulators that will help you learn the track. It doesn't give a real impression of forces, inclines etc but you know which way the corners go, how tight etc.E36Dan said:
Morning PHers
I'm planning to take my Mk3 MR2 (ZZW30) to the Nurburgring in a couple of months. Starting to think about how to set the car up alignment wise, and wondered if anyone's been out there in a fast light MR car (Exige maybe?)
The sections of the track I'm most concerned about are the fastest parts, Flugplatz to Adenau Forest, and then Pflanzgarten 2 onwards to the end. I'm going to get a GT rear wing for the crack to see if that helps out, but also thinking what I can do with the alignment.
High speed stability is the #1 goal, I think I'm asking a lot from the car and I know it will be a bit hectic but there are things that can be done, i.e:
To summarise, if anyone's done anything similar before in a small-ish MR car, how did you get on? I think a wing will be mandatory, I'm only geared to 139mph anyway so it shouldn't hurt in that regard. I'm looking to come away feeling satisfied with the car's performance rather than simply completing a lap
Should be fun!
cheers
Dan
Last thing you want to do is make a new set of adjustments in the UK and then learn first hand if they were wise or not at the Nurburgring.I'm planning to take my Mk3 MR2 (ZZW30) to the Nurburgring in a couple of months. Starting to think about how to set the car up alignment wise, and wondered if anyone's been out there in a fast light MR car (Exige maybe?)
The sections of the track I'm most concerned about are the fastest parts, Flugplatz to Adenau Forest, and then Pflanzgarten 2 onwards to the end. I'm going to get a GT rear wing for the crack to see if that helps out, but also thinking what I can do with the alignment.
High speed stability is the #1 goal, I think I'm asking a lot from the car and I know it will be a bit hectic but there are things that can be done, i.e:
- More toe-in on the rear
- GT rear wing
- Staggering tyres (currently planning 205/50/15 all round but may go 225R)
To summarise, if anyone's done anything similar before in a small-ish MR car, how did you get on? I think a wing will be mandatory, I'm only geared to 139mph anyway so it shouldn't hurt in that regard. I'm looking to come away feeling satisfied with the car's performance rather than simply completing a lap
Should be fun!
cheers
Dan
I'd stick entirely stock alignment. It was designed for some stability from the get go.
E36Dan said:
Byker28i said:
rallycross said:
Best advice would be do some UK track days so you know exactly how it drives and play around with tyre pressures to get a good idea on how it reacts before setting off to the ring (where everything can go wrong very quickly and very expensively if you make a mistake.).
The other advice is to run several laps and build up the speed. I can't remember what I used now, probably rFactor, but there are racing simulators that will help you learn the track. It doesn't give a real impression of forces, inclines etc but you know which way the corners go, how tight etc.I was on the Isle of Man with some MR2 owners who swore by a chassis brace to stiffen it
I don't know about the mk3 but I took my mk2 there a number of years ago... (shameless plug... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2bhsQTJF2M )
To be honest I found the car generally quite safe and understeering. It had the standard suspension but the uprated dampers (I rated the dampers and they were in good condition too). 195 width front tyre with 225 width rear.
You'll notice in the video a couple of neutral steer moments, once at the right hander after Aremberg (2:32) and once at Schwalbenschwanz (8:48) but generally good discipline for MR driving is what is required.
Smooth steering input, remember weight transfer and try to keep it straight at Schwedenkreuz (2:15), you'll notice my line is poor as I have slight steering input over the crest. Better to hug the stones on left from 2:15 to end of stones then go in a straight line over the crest which will set you up nicely for the next right hander. This is the most dangerous part of the track for an MR car (or any car really...).
You'll notice aero balance much more at NBR than you will most other race tracks as you want that rear stability over the jumps and crests.
If you want a nice predictable stable setup then stick to the standard alignment settings (assuming you haven't lowered the car). If you've lowered the car you generally find the handling gets a bit twitchy (sudden understeer then oversteer) due to the contact with the bumpstops being early and more aggressive. Therefore a small increase of rear toe in over and above the standard specification will help stabilise (extra 4' toe in at the rear total). Don't go too far though or the car will be boring to drive and pushing into understeer too much!
But overall, disciplined driving is essential. Remember your weight balance as you're moving from throttle to brake and steering. Try and keep the steering straight over the crests. Have fun
To be honest I found the car generally quite safe and understeering. It had the standard suspension but the uprated dampers (I rated the dampers and they were in good condition too). 195 width front tyre with 225 width rear.
You'll notice in the video a couple of neutral steer moments, once at the right hander after Aremberg (2:32) and once at Schwalbenschwanz (8:48) but generally good discipline for MR driving is what is required.
Smooth steering input, remember weight transfer and try to keep it straight at Schwedenkreuz (2:15), you'll notice my line is poor as I have slight steering input over the crest. Better to hug the stones on left from 2:15 to end of stones then go in a straight line over the crest which will set you up nicely for the next right hander. This is the most dangerous part of the track for an MR car (or any car really...).
You'll notice aero balance much more at NBR than you will most other race tracks as you want that rear stability over the jumps and crests.
If you want a nice predictable stable setup then stick to the standard alignment settings (assuming you haven't lowered the car). If you've lowered the car you generally find the handling gets a bit twitchy (sudden understeer then oversteer) due to the contact with the bumpstops being early and more aggressive. Therefore a small increase of rear toe in over and above the standard specification will help stabilise (extra 4' toe in at the rear total). Don't go too far though or the car will be boring to drive and pushing into understeer too much!
But overall, disciplined driving is essential. Remember your weight balance as you're moving from throttle to brake and steering. Try and keep the steering straight over the crests. Have fun
Not driven my MR2 at the Nurburgring but done most of the UK tracks. Honestly, it's just part of how the car drives... fast steering rack, not much understeer, so it naturally starts to oversteer if you trail on the way in... so in the dry you can get on the power early, straighten the wheel and it pretty much 4 wheel drifts out of the corner. Maybe run the front a bit stiffer to get some understeer?
Doubt there is anywhere in t' Dales suitable to try and emulate the conditions of the ring.... safely.
I'd be searching out those that have previously taken an MK3 MR2 to the ring and find out how they found thing to judge.
Or how about try and get advice or paying for some setup time from a suspension tuner based at the Ring?
Otherwise I suspect its going to be down to trial and error with a bit of non-direct experience advice/common sense.
Other tracks to consider:
Knockhill has some challenging turns and curbs that can test a cars stability.
Also Outlon Park has some fun undulations.
I'd be searching out those that have previously taken an MK3 MR2 to the ring and find out how they found thing to judge.
Or how about try and get advice or paying for some setup time from a suspension tuner based at the Ring?
Otherwise I suspect its going to be down to trial and error with a bit of non-direct experience advice/common sense.
Other tracks to consider:
Knockhill has some challenging turns and curbs that can test a cars stability.
Also Outlon Park has some fun undulations.
OP - Haven't Toyota done all the R&D on the set up of the car in terms of alignment, suspension, aerodynamics etc. for the purposes of stability?
If you're planning on adding a rear wing, do you know what downforce levels it will produce at a given speed?
How much is this likely to shift the balance away from the front and towards the rear?
Those questions are quite difficult to answer without testing and measurements. And therefore as a result your alignment setting would be a bit of a shot in the dark.
I'm coming from an angle of having done an amount of racing and testing in previous years.
Of course you could go to the NRing and do your own testing and get a 'feel' for what is going on.
But I have a feeling that depending on how effective the rear wing is, that your car is likely to become 'loose' at the front.
Which means you'll have to balance it with a front 'wing'. Which then may upset airflow underneath the car, whereby you'd then need to look at a rear diffuser etc. etc. Couple all these effects with your alignment settings and there is a LOT of testing that would need to be done to get the car running sweet for that particular track. Such is the never ending expense of performance track driving
If you're planning on adding a rear wing, do you know what downforce levels it will produce at a given speed?
How much is this likely to shift the balance away from the front and towards the rear?
Those questions are quite difficult to answer without testing and measurements. And therefore as a result your alignment setting would be a bit of a shot in the dark.
I'm coming from an angle of having done an amount of racing and testing in previous years.
Of course you could go to the NRing and do your own testing and get a 'feel' for what is going on.
But I have a feeling that depending on how effective the rear wing is, that your car is likely to become 'loose' at the front.
Which means you'll have to balance it with a front 'wing'. Which then may upset airflow underneath the car, whereby you'd then need to look at a rear diffuser etc. etc. Couple all these effects with your alignment settings and there is a LOT of testing that would need to be done to get the car running sweet for that particular track. Such is the never ending expense of performance track driving
E36Dan said:
I'll be aiming to clip 6th limiter, I don't think I'll be far off that on the run down foxhole. Should be fun
Does it have standard power? I've never really looked at these cars before. The weight looks great but the BHP and factory topspeed without wing make 139mph look a long way off?•The new MR2 Roadster is light weight (975kg) for maximum agility.
•1.8 VVT-i, 16v four cylinder engine produces 140PS@6,400rpm and 125lbft (170Nm) @ 4,400rpm.
•0-62mph in 7.9 sec, top speed 130mph.
E36Dan said:
Thanks for the reply
Why do you say no to a rear wing?.
Simply based on how our vx220t (Elise) with over 300 bhp coped (with no wing) and was stable and virtually un catchable - on t888’s and nitron suspension . Adding some aftermarket wing could completely put the car out of balance and zero need for it will be fine as it is.Why do you say no to a rear wing?.
Staggered tyres without a doubt running your level of power on that car should not be on same width tyres front and rear.
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