Manual Drivers: Do you engine brake on track?
Discussion
Curious as to what PH'ers do after reading various books on improving track driving two authors have different opinions on whether to use engine braking on track or not:
- Ross Bentley (Ultimate Speed Secrets): don't engine brake as it might unsettle the car
- Ben Collins (How to drive): use engine braking in conjunction with braking - he does emphasize good clutch control
Interested in any arguments for or against engine braking / experience / anecdotes etc...
Cheers
- Ross Bentley (Ultimate Speed Secrets): don't engine brake as it might unsettle the car
- Ben Collins (How to drive): use engine braking in conjunction with braking - he does emphasize good clutch control
Interested in any arguments for or against engine braking / experience / anecdotes etc...
Cheers
If you are in a gear with the clutch out and you have either no throttle on or less throttle than is required to sustain the current engine speed then the engine is providing some braking effect. In most circumstances this braking will be dwarfed by the amount being done by the actual brakes, however in some corners a partial lift off the throttle (engine braking) is all that is needed.
If you are downshifting, heel & toe.
If you are downshifting, heel & toe.
AmosMoses said:
Heel toe every time, hate engine braking as it just feels unsympathetic on the drive train.
I would advise against engine breaking as it really can unsettle cars, seen a few mr2 and boxsters spin after then have shifted down and just let the clutch out fast.
That doesn't make sense, if you're heel and toeing it surely means you're changing down the gears. Therefore each time the clutch pedal is released then you get an engine braking effect.I would advise against engine breaking as it really can unsettle cars, seen a few mr2 and boxsters spin after then have shifted down and just let the clutch out fast.
Or do you mean just slamming it down the gears and getting the lump of resistance as the revs rise again when the clutch disengages?
AmosMoses said:
Heel toe every time, hate engine braking as it just feels unsympathetic on the drive train.
If you're concerned about mechanical sympathy then track driving is probably not for you. I'm not saying you should abuse your car, but track driving is pretty unsympathetic on the machine full stop. Cyder said:
Or do you mean just slamming it down the gears and getting the lump of resistance as the revs rise again when the clutch disengages?
This, when heel toeing/rev matching you are matching engine speed to the gearbox so the car stays balanced. If you are braking down from high speed a normal downshift can unsettle the car if you let the clutch out too fast.See this:
Shift lock drifting is a way to use this to your advantage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LMT6LJ6V3Ak
c) Don't over think it. The most important thing is to keep the car settled, however you achieve that (definitely not jumping off the clutch!). Any engine braking is negligible compared to what the middle pedal is doing unless you're being a complete nonce anyway (and assuming your brake balance is somewhere near, is most likely to cause the driven end some trouble anyhow).
Edited by upsidedownmark on Wednesday 17th October 17:36
lifting throttle transfers weight, more grip for steering.
good example is copse at cadwell. lift to weight the front as you turn, before maintaining speed through the bend.
in taking 2nd gear h/pins i often carry a lot of speed and the lift off dramatically before flooring it again. that translates to understeer -> oversteer -> correction -> off and away.
not necessarily the best way, but fun.
good example is copse at cadwell. lift to weight the front as you turn, before maintaining speed through the bend.
in taking 2nd gear h/pins i often carry a lot of speed and the lift off dramatically before flooring it again. that translates to understeer -> oversteer -> correction -> off and away.
not necessarily the best way, but fun.
I’m not sure engine braking itself is really much of a consideration on track. The aim is to keep the car settled to maximise speed. Gears, throttle, brake and steering input are used in a way that best achieves this goal.
Sometimes this might mean changing down as soon as I get on the brakes so the change is completed in a straight line (end of Wellington straight at Silverstone) which will generate lots of engine braking.
If the braking zone starts in a corner, I’ll leave it in gear and block change in the final phase of braking (ie. end of Coram at Snett).
In short, I agree with both authors but context is key. Ross Bentleys comments relate more to throttle control and weight transfer. Ben Collins comment seems to be more directly related to the braking zone.
Overall though, i agree with the poster above that said ‘don’t over think it’.
Sometimes this might mean changing down as soon as I get on the brakes so the change is completed in a straight line (end of Wellington straight at Silverstone) which will generate lots of engine braking.
If the braking zone starts in a corner, I’ll leave it in gear and block change in the final phase of braking (ie. end of Coram at Snett).
In short, I agree with both authors but context is key. Ross Bentleys comments relate more to throttle control and weight transfer. Ben Collins comment seems to be more directly related to the braking zone.
Overall though, i agree with the poster above that said ‘don’t over think it’.
Edited by Vimes on Wednesday 17th October 20:23
Edited by Vimes on Wednesday 17th October 20:24
HustleRussell said:
CABC said:
lifting throttle transfers weight, more grip for steering.
good example is copse at cadwell. lift to weight the front as you turn, before maintaining speed through the bend.
Coppice? That’s flat chat good example is copse at cadwell. lift to weight the front as you turn, before maintaining speed through the bend.
flat? i guess it depends whether you've got a weak car or soft balls.
seriously, i had a eureka at that corner. an instructor coached me to forget gear changes there (think brake too much then change down and accelerate) and instead keep it hard in 4th, lift, turn and 4 wheel drift in to Coppice. It was a wonderful feeling carrying so much speed and i would never, ever, have got there myself. i say "4 wheel drift", i mean i felt that the whole car was just on the edge, in balance, maxed out. The instructor had big cajones for pushing me more each lap, because he had no control. many thanks to him.
OP, big take away there is: instruction is the best upgrade. every now and then a good instructor really delivers a memorable experience.
CABC said:
HustleRussell said:
CABC said:
lifting throttle transfers weight, more grip for steering.
good example is copse at cadwell. lift to weight the front as you turn, before maintaining speed through the bend.
Coppice? That’s flat chat good example is copse at cadwell. lift to weight the front as you turn, before maintaining speed through the bend.
flat? i guess it depends whether you've got a weak car or soft balls.
seriously, i had a eureka at that corner. an instructor coached me to forget gear changes there (think brake too much then change down and accelerate) and instead keep it hard in 4th, lift, turn and 4 wheel drift in to Coppice. It was a wonderful feeling carrying so much speed and i would never, ever, have got there myself. i say "4 wheel drift", i mean i felt that the whole car was just on the edge, in balance, maxed out. The instructor had big cajones for pushing me more each lap, because he had no control. many thanks to him.
OP, big take away there is: instruction is the best upgrade. every now and then a good instructor really delivers a memorable experience.
Define engine brake... do i heel and toe downshift, yes. Do i whack it in a lower gear without rev matching and let the revs shoot up on their own? No, thats a recipe for under rotating the rears and spinning.
Do i dip the clutch when braking? No, i keep it in gear. So yes, i engine brake. But only after rev matching first so as to not unsettle the car.
Do i dip the clutch when braking? No, i keep it in gear. So yes, i engine brake. But only after rev matching first so as to not unsettle the car.
I initially wrote No Never and reasons why.
Then I realised that there are a few deep braking/slow corners where I probably do rev match and change down through the gears, such as the straight line braking into the Druids hairpin on Brands.
Outside that, I also it occasionally on slow down laps on the corners where its easily possible with rev matching, to help with cooling the brakes down when I know the pit lane is likely to be stop start traffic.
Outside of those very few exceptions, it is a No.
Then I realised that there are a few deep braking/slow corners where I probably do rev match and change down through the gears, such as the straight line braking into the Druids hairpin on Brands.
Outside that, I also it occasionally on slow down laps on the corners where its easily possible with rev matching, to help with cooling the brakes down when I know the pit lane is likely to be stop start traffic.
Outside of those very few exceptions, it is a No.
Edited by Hol on Friday 19th October 15:19
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