Modern cars too heavy for track work?

[Frimley111R]

Coming from an Elise, maybe i am being a bit unfair but I had a Megane RS265 and it always felt big on track and the weight hammered the tyres, brakes and suspension much more than I liked and so I swapped it for a smaller and lighter R26.

I've been looking at the Focus RS, which I love, but watching some vids on YT its weight is doing the same. I get the impression that a lot of modern cars struggle with weight on track and maybe you just have to accept this and factor in the high cost of wear and tear as a result...

Not sure where I am going with this post but perhaps wondered what others felt.

[brillomaster]

I'm not sure I agree... sure a 1800kgs car is too heavy - you'd be mad to track a massive estate car or a Bentley or something, even with expensive brake pads, having that much mass to slow down, and consequently huge amounts of torque going through the tyres will vaporise brakes and tyres pretty quickly, and because they're ginormous they'll be expensive to replace.

however a 1400kgs car is perfectly trackable - I can get 18" federal trackday tyres for £90 a corner compared to maybe £70 a corner for 15" tyres, and brakes are still reasonable - far less than the costs of getting on a trackday in the first place and the fuel you'd go through.

yes in an ideal world I car would have 400 bhp and weigh 500kgs, but that isn't gonna happen and while lightweights are good, I prefer a bit more grunt - about 300bhp and 1200kgs would be a nice sweetspot for me.

[jassihayre]

Its not just the weight they're also too refined. I was passengering in a 911 at Beds Auto recently and although undoubtedly fast in terms of numbers, it just didnt feel fast going round compared to my stripped out MX5 and Clio.

When I've been a passenger in stripped out MX5's, Clio 1x2's and kit cars they just seem to be infused /buzz with energy - the whole car vibrates, you see, hear and feel everything. Been passenger in a M4 and Golf GTI mk7 not long ago and like the 911 they just felt sedate in comparison. Everything is flying past you in a hurry so you know you're going fast but nowhere near enough drama.

Edited by jassihayre on Tuesday 25th September 00:42

[Digga]

I've been told by a number of people that most of the modern BMW M cars are too heavy for their brakes on track. The standard items don't cope, and only the up-rated factory or aftermarket options last.

Turns out, Colin Chapman was bang on the money.

[E-bmw]

It is quite simple explained by various laws of physics, in layman's terms.

Every kilo has to be accelerated and braked.

This consumes power & brakes respectively.

Lower weight (all else being equal) makes for a better use of power.

[CABC]

....and cornered!

Also the effects aren’t linear. Nasty quadratic equations mean weight is real bad.

[iguana]

Digga said:

I've been told by a number of people that most of the modern BMW M cars are too heavy for their brakes on track. The standard items don't cope, and only the up-rated factory or aftermarket options last.

Turns out, Colin Chapman was bang on the money.

The same is true for 99% of road cars. Not really a biggie, most just need pads.

[Jaybmw]

Way to heavy.. I'm going to say 1 lap was max until it was cooled down.. biggest issue was the brakes. And the power even at 230hp odd but at over 1600kg it's ridiculous to even think about tracking it

Edited by Jaybmw on Tuesday 25th September 09:34

[Ahbefive]

I bought my R26 as it is much easier on consumables to my Focus RS. The RS is great fun on track (more so than the megane) but the drifty antics and weight shred tyres in no time at all and I'd imagine the brakes would get eaten very quickly too if I used it more often.

The R26 on the other hand has managed 2k road miles, 3 full track days and 10 laps of the 'Ring and still has another track day left in both the pads and cup2 tyres. The RS would have eaten tyres and pads in half the time.

I did take my 1800kgs Volvo S60R to PH at Silverstone last year, luckily it was wet and only a couple of sessions as I think that would havr killed tyres and brakes in no time had it been dry.

[Mr E]

brillomaster said:

I'm not sure I agree... sure a 1800kgs car is too heavy - you'd be mad to track a massive estate car or a Bentley or something, even with expensive brake pads, having that much mass to slow down, and consequently huge amounts of torque going through the tyres will vaporise brakes and tyres pretty quickly, and because they're ginormous they'll be expensive to replace..

We did an airfield training day in the Elise and the Merc.

The merc was very fast, very stable, very dull and tore its tyres to bits in 3 hours.
The Elise was spun 8 times by lunchtime and rather more useful as a teaching aid.

[upsidedownmark]

iguana said:

The same is true for 99% of road cars. Not really a biggie, most just need pads.

Hmm.. my experience suggests otherwise. OK, the sample is 3 BMs and about 4 'other', but the non M BMW's melted very quickly, and the M3 did about the same 15 min session as any other roadcar before getting squidgy. IMHO non-M's need more than pads, it seems (or seemed) to be a BMW thing to under size the brakes somewhat.

And yes.. 99% of cars are overweight.

[Frimley111R]

Ahbefive said:

I bought my R26 as it is much easier on consumables to my Focus RS. The RS is great fun on track (more so than the megane) but the drifty antics and weight shred tyres in no time at all and I'd imagine the brakes would get eaten very quickly too if I used it more often.

The R26 on the other hand has managed 2k road miles, 3 full track days and 10 laps of the 'Ring and still has another track day left in both the pads and cup2 tyres. The RS would have eaten tyres and pads in half the time.

.

You have the set up of R26 and FRS that I'd like but I am not sure I'd use the FRS anything much other than normal daily driving and TBH there are lots of normal cars that do daily stuff better.

[HustleRussell]

Digga said:

Colin Chapman was bang on the money.

This.

Can't imagine trackdaying a car which tired out faster than I do. Why would you choose to do that?

[Digga]

HustleRussell said:

Digga said:

Colin Chapman was bang on the money.

This.

Can't imagine trackdaying a car which tired out faster than I do. Why would you choose to do that?

A general rule of thumb for me and my car is; If I am tired, the Michelin Cup 2's are probably due a rest too, and vice versa.

[nw942]

I'd agree that the RS is quite heavy as a track car, although you can hustle them around quite quickly. Like all ~ 1500kg cars a bit more power - ideally turbocharged - is the path they have chosen to improve the lap times.

If you crave modern lightness then the choice is more limited. If you want some daily usability then it narrows it down even more.

A GT86 is nice and light, but will ideally need more power and bigger wheels.
A Megane Trophy R is fairly light too, but no back seats and you have kind of been there before.
Cupra R Sub 8 is a bit heavier, but should have brakes that are up to the job.
Cayman can suffice as a daily, it's light and the brakes last fairly well on track.
Wildcard choice for lightness may be a Peugeot 308 GTI.
Alpine A110 another great choice on paper, but over £50k.

I'm sure there's another obvious car I've forgotten

---

I'd also add that some of older cars (2000-2010) were simply nicer to drive in many regards and simpler and lighter. Which is kind of where the OP is with his R26.

[Frimley111R]

jassihayre said:

When I've been a passenger in stripped out MX5's, Clio 1x2's and kit cars they just seem to be infused /buzz with energy - the whole car vibrates, you see, hear and feel everything.

Edited by jassihayre on Tuesday 25th September 00:42

I had a go in probably the lightest Rover 100 ever at Bedford a year or two ago. It was, by some margin, the best thing I've ever driven, having all of those attributes in spades. It was also the uncoolest car I have ever driven

[Digga]

A mate has had a Lotus Elise as a fun car for decades. Currently on his third, an newish "S".

A year or so back, he decided to treat himself and bought a McLaren 650S. He loves it; loves the tech, the drama and the power. However, he says "it just wants to go fast" - it is very, very easy to be quick - and that, if push came to shove, he'd sell it before the Lotus, because it doesn't feel as exciting.

[Ahbefive]

Frimley111R said:

You have the set up of R26 and FRS that I'd like but I am not sure I'd use the FRS anything much other than normal daily driving and TBH there are lots of normal cars that do daily stuff better.

This is true. I may use it for half hr sessions here and there but its mainly being used as a road car as it is just to hard on consumables to track much unless you are rolling in cash. Great fun but you have to have deep pockets.

[Mr E]

Frimley111R said:

I had a go in probably the lightest Rover 100 ever at Bedford a year or two ago. It was, by some margin, the best thing I've ever driven, having all of those attributes in spades. It was also the uncoolest car I have ever driven

My mate sprints one. It’s now very definitely not road legal.

[Digga]

Mr E said:

Frimley111R said:

I had a go in probably the lightest Rover 100 ever at Bedford a year or two ago. It was, by some margin, the best thing I've ever driven, having all of those attributes in spades. It was also the uncoolest car I have ever driven

My mate sprints one. It’s now very definitely not road legal.

Like that a lot.

When I was at the Nurburgring earlier in the year, my first trip in my new (to me) GT3, I was overtaken by.... a K11 Nissan Micra. Had a look at the thing in the car park later; semi-slick tyres, all sorts of suspension mods and a jeffing huge turbo under the bonnet, plus a very experienced driver. (Reinforced the rule that if it appears in your mirrors, it is going faster than you, not matter what 'it' is!)