Where are all the AWD and Type R's?
Discussion
Started doing trackdays a couple of years ago and after nearly a dozen days i've noticed that there aren't many all wheel / four wheel drive cars such as scooby's, evo's, s3's, s4's celica's or many Honda type r's on most trackdays. Would have thought the traction benefits of the all wheel drives and screaming engines of the Type r's would make them popular choices but doesn't appear so.
DC2 integras are quite rare nowadays, well, good ones are...
There are a lot of AWD cars still on track, I see Subarus and GTRs quite regularly, I track a TT and there is a largish group of us TT owners that use them as dedicated track cars, yesterday at Bedford I was there, so was a lovely Evo 6 and Carrera 4 - 3 out of 18 cars isn't a bad showing
There are a lot of AWD cars still on track, I see Subarus and GTRs quite regularly, I track a TT and there is a largish group of us TT owners that use them as dedicated track cars, yesterday at Bedford I was there, so was a lovely Evo 6 and Carrera 4 - 3 out of 18 cars isn't a bad showing
A lot of the early Jap stuff have moved from the ‘cheap’ to buy and track bracket, to the very expensive bucket.
Tracking a car worth £2k with lots of other similar cars breaking for spares is common sense.
Tracking a car worth £10k with very few used parts available is a different ballgame:
Tracking a car worth £2k with lots of other similar cars breaking for spares is common sense.
Tracking a car worth £10k with very few used parts available is a different ballgame:
4wd jap cars expensive to run and in most cases not all that quick on track. With every man and his dog doing turbo conversion on mx5 for example makes a perfect track car and for under 5k could build a seriously quick mx5 that will surprise a lot on track and be cheap to run.
Have a look at prices for cars you are mentioning and you notice a few things one they are getting expensive and less common. Go too most track days you have mainly sub 2k cars that have been stripped and turned into track cars, or you have kit cars. But it does depend on where you are on track too the more expensive tracks will see higher range of cars where the smaller tracks or cheaper venues will see a lot less high end stuff and more hot hatches etc.
Have a look at prices for cars you are mentioning and you notice a few things one they are getting expensive and less common. Go too most track days you have mainly sub 2k cars that have been stripped and turned into track cars, or you have kit cars. But it does depend on where you are on track too the more expensive tracks will see higher range of cars where the smaller tracks or cheaper venues will see a lot less high end stuff and more hot hatches etc.
i was surprised at the lack of expected kit on my last track day too.
expected to see at least the odd fiesta/focus ST/RS, golfR's, VXR's and a boat load of typeR's. surprising very few typeR's or even s2000's. from what i remember, 1 scoobie, 1 evo (i don't remember it going out), and the rest were lotus, caterham and porsche. a few atoms showed up on trailers but didn't run either. cant understand that logic!
I'm holding up the typeR camp though... FK2 here. 1 more event this year, and if all goes well with reliable upgrades, 3-4 events next year.
expected to see at least the odd fiesta/focus ST/RS, golfR's, VXR's and a boat load of typeR's. surprising very few typeR's or even s2000's. from what i remember, 1 scoobie, 1 evo (i don't remember it going out), and the rest were lotus, caterham and porsche. a few atoms showed up on trailers but didn't run either. cant understand that logic!
I'm holding up the typeR camp though... FK2 here. 1 more event this year, and if all goes well with reliable upgrades, 3-4 events next year.
Edited by veehexx on Saturday 28th July 11:51
I know a couple of guys who used to run Subaru track cars. Reliability is a major concern once you start thrashing them, the drive trains just don't last under stress and are exceptionally expensive to sort when they go awry (Subaru OEM parts are made of unobtainium apparently).
That being said they are exceptionally fast, especially in the wet.
That being said they are exceptionally fast, especially in the wet.
veehexx said:
i was surprised at the lack of expected kit on my last track day too.
expected to see at least the odd fiesta/focus ST/RS, golfR's, VXR's and a boat load of typeR's. surprising very few typeR's or even s2000's. from what i remember, 1 scoobie, 1 evo (i don't remember it going out), and the rest were lotus, caterham and porsche. a few atoms showed up on trailers but didn't run either. cant understand that logic!
I'm holding up the typeR camp though... FK2 here. 1 more event this year, and if all goes well with reliable upgrades, 3-4 events next year.
there must of been clio's , there's always clios expected to see at least the odd fiesta/focus ST/RS, golfR's, VXR's and a boat load of typeR's. surprising very few typeR's or even s2000's. from what i remember, 1 scoobie, 1 evo (i don't remember it going out), and the rest were lotus, caterham and porsche. a few atoms showed up on trailers but didn't run either. cant understand that logic!
I'm holding up the typeR camp though... FK2 here. 1 more event this year, and if all goes well with reliable upgrades, 3-4 events next year.
Edited by veehexx on Saturday 28th July 11:51
The internet and street car cred count for nothing. Track day participation tells the truth.
Modern hot hatches are way too heavy to survive on track for long, a bit like M3s of few years ago. That's why if you want to evaluate appropriate cars for track you should not just look at the paddock at 9am but at who keeps going out and is still there after 3pm.
I don't have hard statistics but i suspect French cars aren't too robust normally. It appears that Dieppe do something different when bolting the RSs together, they last well.
Modern hot hatches are way too heavy to survive on track for long, a bit like M3s of few years ago. That's why if you want to evaluate appropriate cars for track you should not just look at the paddock at 9am but at who keeps going out and is still there after 3pm.
I don't have hard statistics but i suspect French cars aren't too robust normally. It appears that Dieppe do something different when bolting the RSs together, they last well.
Ultimately the fun of a track day isn’t measured in lap time. The fun is in driving a car to it’s limit and being able to do that all day long.
If the forces being generated are high then stuff is going to wear out and break (tyres, brakes, suspension, engine). All the cars listed by the OP may be quick over a single lap but will take their toll on parts.... Replacing brake pads and tyres every other track day, killing suspension bushes and limiting runs on the day aren’t my idea of fun.
Light weight, modest power and grip are the common factors in the most popular and fun track day cars, regardless of car cost (Atom, Caterham, Clio, mx5)..
If the forces being generated are high then stuff is going to wear out and break (tyres, brakes, suspension, engine). All the cars listed by the OP may be quick over a single lap but will take their toll on parts.... Replacing brake pads and tyres every other track day, killing suspension bushes and limiting runs on the day aren’t my idea of fun.
Light weight, modest power and grip are the common factors in the most popular and fun track day cars, regardless of car cost (Atom, Caterham, Clio, mx5)..
Last track day I did was at Anglesey.
About half a dozen good Lotuses (Exiges etc), 4 TVRs, a GT3 RS Porsche and a Mercedes AMG GT were on track, as well as a Radical, and Ariel Atom and some Caterhams. Yes, the usual BMWs and Clios were there, but as it wasn't a cheaper day (£190), we seemed to get a better quality of car. Only damage was to a Civic Type 3, written off against the barriers, sadly.
So this backs up what was said earlier - it does depend on the price of the track day.
About half a dozen good Lotuses (Exiges etc), 4 TVRs, a GT3 RS Porsche and a Mercedes AMG GT were on track, as well as a Radical, and Ariel Atom and some Caterhams. Yes, the usual BMWs and Clios were there, but as it wasn't a cheaper day (£190), we seemed to get a better quality of car. Only damage was to a Civic Type 3, written off against the barriers, sadly.
So this backs up what was said earlier - it does depend on the price of the track day.
caelite said:
I know a couple of guys who used to run Subaru track cars. Reliability is a major concern once you start thrashing them, the drive trains just don't last under stress and are exceptionally expensive to sort when they go awry (Subaru OEM parts are made of unobtainium apparently).
That being said they are exceptionally fast, especially in the wet.
5 speed boxes are £200 second hand and you can buy a complete 6-speed drivetrain (box, prop, driveshafts & diff) for £1500. Unless you are trying to buy brand new direct from a dealers - but then who would do that for a track car? A little mechanical sympathy goes a long way - it's a track day, not a race.That being said they are exceptionally fast, especially in the wet.
TEKNOPUG said:
caelite said:
I know a couple of guys who used to run Subaru track cars. Reliability is a major concern once you start thrashing them, the drive trains just don't last under stress and are exceptionally expensive to sort when they go awry (Subaru OEM parts are made of unobtainium apparently).
That being said they are exceptionally fast, especially in the wet.
5 speed boxes are £200 second hand and you can buy a complete 6-speed drivetrain (box, prop, driveshafts & diff) for £1500. Unless you are trying to buy brand new direct from a dealers - but then who would do that for a track car? A little mechanical sympathy goes a long way - it's a track day, not a race.That being said they are exceptionally fast, especially in the wet.
For me it was a half shaft, clutch pull fork (went not long after I changed the clutch, nightmare
) head gasket, and I suspect a front diff (I sold it when the HG began to go), too me that is too many things to go at once in a year and 10k miles of ownership. Albeit I will admit on a 120k mile car.My cousin who ran a fairly low mile Subaru 2000 turbo as a track car for years replaced gearbox bearings, a propshaft, had fairly frequent clutch changes (could put this down to his particular driving style though to be fair), Had all sorts of issues with his front tracking needing adjusted after every track day. Ultimately his blew up rather spectacularly after running hot, dropped about 10L of various fluids and a con rod on to the final hairpin at knockhill. He got short of it after that and replaced it with an S2000, which he still abuses to this day, bar normal maintenance has wanted for nothing. I drove this Subaru often, to be honest I did enjoy driving it, especially at the time. Yes it was a bit numb and the handling pales a bit compared to lighter compatriots, but the way it just squats down and throws you back in your seat on corner exits is a bit intoxicating, it is a blunt instrument which plays well in the hands of less experienced drivers. (as we both where at the time being 18/19).
A friend of mine also ran a newer WRX. It had a lot of work done to it, but it did genuinely seemed at one point every vaguely hard launch he did would result in something vital twisting, snapping or falling off. I believe he was sitting at about 350bhp, which can easily be blamed for the faults, but at the same time, it is hardly stellar numbers. He now tracks a 250hp Seat Ibiza diesel.
Ultimately they are a b
h to work on and require a lot of babying, also suffer from the same tyre/brake cost issues as many more modern (heavy) hatches do. Still a lot of people run them as they can be fun in their own way. Personally I don't think I'd buy another, Subarus where my dream car as a kid, growing up in the 90s I had a 22B poster on my wall. But after my own and my friends ownership experiences they just aren't for me. caelite said:
Subaru OEM parts are made of unobtainium apparently.
Extremely easy to source with a wealth of specialists and online parts shops/caelite said:
For me it was a half shaft, clutch pull fork (went not long after I changed the clutch, nightmare ) head gasket, and I suspect a front diff (I sold it when the HG began to go), too me that is too many things to go at once in a year and 10k miles of ownership. Albeit I will admit on a 120k mile car.
That's unlucky but as you say it had 120k miles on. In the past Scoobs were known to fall into the hands of people who didn't maintain them so possibly yours was one of those (that's changing now as they aren't as cheap as they used to be.)) head gasket, and I suspect a front diff (I sold it when the HG began to go), too me that is too many things to go at once in a year and 10k miles of ownership. Albeit I will admit on a 120k mile car.caelite said:
My cousin who ran a fairly low mile Subaru 2000 turbo as a track car for years replaced gearbox bearings, a propshaft, had fairly frequent clutch changes (could put this down to his particular driving style though to be fair), Had all sorts of issues with his front tracking needing adjusted after every track day.
caelite said:
A friend of mine also ran a newer WRX. It had a lot of work done to it, but it did genuinely seemed at one point every vaguely hard launch he did would result in something vital twisting, snapping or falling off. I believe he was sitting at about 350bhp, which can easily be blamed for the faults, but at the same time, it is hardly stellar numbers. He now tracks a 250hp Seat Ibiza diesel.
So these drivers are burning through clutches, knocking the tracking out and launching the cars...yes indeed they would be much better off with 2WD cars if they don't want to pay for repairs.caelite said:
Ultimately they are a bh to work on and require a lot of babying
Other that the spark plugs which a bit fiddly on the boxer, Subarus are incredibly easy to work on being simple cars with relatively few electronics or unnecessary frills. Which is why they're also very reliable if you buy a good one and treat it with some sympathy h to work on and require a lot of babying
Back to OP's question - the predictable handling characteristics that make AWD great on the road makes them boring for track, imo. On track I want to dance at the edge of grip and feel like I'm taming the car, ideally with a bit of oversteer available when I want it. For track I'd much prefer RWD or even a well set-up FWD over the point-and-squirt that AWD serves up.
plenty said:
Back to OP's question - the predictable handling characteristics that make AWD great on the road makes them boring for track, imo. On track I want to dance at the edge of grip and feel like I'm taming the car, ideally with a bit of oversteer available when I want it. For track I'd much prefer RWD or even a well set-up FWD over the point-and-squirt that AWD serves up.
I don't know what awd cars you have driven (I'm guessing mainly Haldex cars) as an impreza or evo can be much more tail happy on power or lift off than a fwd car and is not just point and squirt at all.On topic, I often see awd cars on trackdays, I see more rwd and fwd (and also on public roads) but often there are a few awd on track days I have attended. There is also usually a few type-Rs on track.
I met PH member Wellground at a Castle Combe TD earlier the year and the eye watering costs of turning his Evo 10 into a track missile might be something to do with it.
I'll leave WG to update this thread with the gory details but IIRC that car was making over 600bhp and certainly wasn't cheap getting there
I'll leave WG to update this thread with the gory details but IIRC that car was making over 600bhp and certainly wasn't cheap getting there
IMHO '4WD' is more a marketing success than a genuine advantage. Sure, it's great on a rally stage. It's necessary offroad. It may even help a bit in the wet, and just maybe on a crappy b-road. But on hot tires on a racetrack you need a massive amount of power before the tractive ability of 2 driven wheels is a problem, especially if it's the rears. Downside is it adds weight, complexity, and isn't often found in cars that are very well suited to track type driving. (I had, and loved a 1st gen turbo scoob, but still would have needed quite a few changes to make a good track car imho).
As for the honda products, IME you see a fair number of those on track.
As for the honda products, IME you see a fair number of those on track.
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