How to improve my performance at Sprints - HELP!
Discussion
Hi
Although I am very new to Sprints I am disappointingly terrible at it and to be honest it is very disappointing. Getting involved in motorsport is something I've always wanted to do, now that I've finally got in the position to do it my poor performance is making me question whether I should continue.
I'm not hoping for a lot. Just to be within the same rough time as others who have not had much experience. Instead I'm 10 seconds off the pace. Other complete novices like me, I'm +2 to +3 seconds on a 90 second track.
So how do I get better?
Tuition seems the obvious route, but i'm not made of money.
The car is a MX5 mk1, private lessons tend to cost £300. 5 lessons and I've spent more than the MX5 is worth. Also I question if a full day of lessons is worth it, surely it would be information overload.
The other option is a track day with a 20min bit of tuition. That sounds a good option. Get the advice and then practice it. But, from what I've read that 20min tuition sounds a bit hit and miss and mainly seems focussed on teaching you the Do's and Don'ts rather than performance coaching from an experienced coach.
So what is the best way to improve?
1. Just go round a track on a track day by myself?
2. Book a track day and get some tuition in 20min slots. Though no idea over the quality of the instructor?
3. A full/half day with a specialist. But then there's little time to practice it and it might be information overload.
Thanks
R
Although I am very new to Sprints I am disappointingly terrible at it and to be honest it is very disappointing. Getting involved in motorsport is something I've always wanted to do, now that I've finally got in the position to do it my poor performance is making me question whether I should continue.
I'm not hoping for a lot. Just to be within the same rough time as others who have not had much experience. Instead I'm 10 seconds off the pace. Other complete novices like me, I'm +2 to +3 seconds on a 90 second track.
So how do I get better?
Tuition seems the obvious route, but i'm not made of money.
The car is a MX5 mk1, private lessons tend to cost £300. 5 lessons and I've spent more than the MX5 is worth. Also I question if a full day of lessons is worth it, surely it would be information overload.
The other option is a track day with a 20min bit of tuition. That sounds a good option. Get the advice and then practice it. But, from what I've read that 20min tuition sounds a bit hit and miss and mainly seems focussed on teaching you the Do's and Don'ts rather than performance coaching from an experienced coach.
So what is the best way to improve?
1. Just go round a track on a track day by myself?
2. Book a track day and get some tuition in 20min slots. Though no idea over the quality of the instructor?
3. A full/half day with a specialist. But then there's little time to practice it and it might be information overload.
Thanks
R
It's all about seat time and knowing your course.
For seat time there's loads of options. Try some autosolos as they're super cheap and will help you get a feel for your car at the slower speed stuff. Do more trackdays. If it's not your daily then drive as often as you can. Knowing your car well is a huge bonus. Some people can jump in any car and be fast, some of us need to learn a car.
If you're entering sprint then get on youtube and try and find videos from previous years winners and look at the lines they take. You should find plenty of MX5 stuff as lots of people sprint them.
Car prep is worth a mention as well. Make sure it's well set up in the suspension department and that the brakes are good and confidence inspiring. If you don't feel confident int he car's abilities your times will suffer.
At the end of the day practice makes perfect.
If by some chance you're entered in the FDMC Dimanche Sprint on the 6th May at Rushmoor I'll be there in my Grey MINI Cooper S. Always happy to chat.
For seat time there's loads of options. Try some autosolos as they're super cheap and will help you get a feel for your car at the slower speed stuff. Do more trackdays. If it's not your daily then drive as often as you can. Knowing your car well is a huge bonus. Some people can jump in any car and be fast, some of us need to learn a car.
If you're entering sprint then get on youtube and try and find videos from previous years winners and look at the lines they take. You should find plenty of MX5 stuff as lots of people sprint them.
Car prep is worth a mention as well. Make sure it's well set up in the suspension department and that the brakes are good and confidence inspiring. If you don't feel confident int he car's abilities your times will suffer.
At the end of the day practice makes perfect.
If by some chance you're entered in the FDMC Dimanche Sprint on the 6th May at Rushmoor I'll be there in my Grey MINI Cooper S. Always happy to chat.
I’d second the above. It’s all about seat time. To get fast times you need to be able to push the car right to the limit and keep it there for the lap/sprint course.
If you don't have experience of pushing to (and beyond) the limit of traction then you won’t recognise the signals from the car that tell you to push harder or back off and how to react when you over step the limit.
I’d get on a few track days and pay for the 20 min tuition slot that’s often available. Be humble, listen to what they say and do what they tell you.
Take a look at Driver61 on Youtube. It’ll give you some insight into the amount there is to learn.
If you don't have experience of pushing to (and beyond) the limit of traction then you won’t recognise the signals from the car that tell you to push harder or back off and how to react when you over step the limit.
I’d get on a few track days and pay for the 20 min tuition slot that’s often available. Be humble, listen to what they say and do what they tell you.
Take a look at Driver61 on Youtube. It’ll give you some insight into the amount there is to learn.
Vimes said:
I’d get on a few track days and pay for the 20 min tuition slot that’s often available. Be humble, listen to what they say and do what they tell you.
Agree. With an MX5, I'd also think about tyres - what tyres are you running currently. My old Mk2s behaved very differently on different tyres. AD08Rs would be my choice for a mix of road and track and gave me so much more confidence than almost anything else I tried. Almost certainly worth the 2 seconds on a 90 second run.
Geo setup makes a massive difference too - go to Blink and get it setup and it will transform the car.
I too would consider autosolos. They may be lower speed but they teach you car control that you can't learn on track and get you familiar with the way the car "lets go". and they are a) cheap and b) loads of fun.
and lastly - you say it is a mk1 - it has got an LSD right? - You need to get a Torsen diff fitted if not. The old VLSD (if it has one) will have seized.
As others have said there is no substitute for time in the car.
Next, get tuition, personally I would not bother with the 20 minute sessions at track days unless your at a track you have never been to and want to learn the lines.
The issue I have found is that you get circa 5 laps, 2 of those are for the instructor to work out how much of a liability you are, then they the next 3 they provide basic information, then your done.
An instructor for the day is expensive but you will gain so much more, try and find someone who has experience in your type of car as they will then also be able to advise on setup and there is also the option of trying to find someone to split the day / cost with you.
Don't lose heart, starting is always the hardest part, things will get better, stick with it!!
Next, get tuition, personally I would not bother with the 20 minute sessions at track days unless your at a track you have never been to and want to learn the lines.
The issue I have found is that you get circa 5 laps, 2 of those are for the instructor to work out how much of a liability you are, then they the next 3 they provide basic information, then your done.
An instructor for the day is expensive but you will gain so much more, try and find someone who has experience in your type of car as they will then also be able to advise on setup and there is also the option of trying to find someone to split the day / cost with you.
Don't lose heart, starting is always the hardest part, things will get better, stick with it!!
Firstly, is the car competitive? What class are you competing in? Are you beating yourself up about your performance when actually the car is several seconds slower than your class competitors?
There's a few things I consider fundamental to doing well at hillclimbs and sprints which many competitors don't seem to bother with:
1) Walk the course. Actually, walk it twice.
This the one that baffles me most - so many people don't do this but to me it's just fundamental. Before your first run in the car you need to have the course mapped out in your head. You need to know the line you're going to take. You need to know where to turn in, where to apex. You need to have some idea of where you'll hit the brakes.
At a new venue I will always try to walk it twice. Once slowly, stopping to look at the corners in detail, trying to understand the line, trying to work out where to turn in, where to brake. Then I'll walk it quickly again, checking that it's been logged.
I always walk the course at a venue I've been to before and know well - there are always things to learn.
You get so little seat time at a sprint that you have to be quick from the outset. If you can be quick in P1, you'll learn more and be quicker on each subsequent run through the day. If - rather than walking the course - you use the first run as a sighter you've lost one opportunity to find the limit.
2) On-board camera
You learn so much from watching your onboard. Watch it between runs, watch it thoroughly when you get home. Even if you think you've done a perfect run, you'll always see things to do better. There's always somewhere you can carry a bit more speed, brake a bit later, or somewhere you're changing gear in a stupid place.
3) Plan your runs
Take a minute before you put on your helmet to think about your run. What are you going to do differently? Where will you try to brake later? Where will you leave it in third gear and carry the speed rather than changing down and then back up again. I find it really helpful. If you're reacting when you arrive at a corner it's too late.
I'll come back later and talk about the driving part of it.
There's a few things I consider fundamental to doing well at hillclimbs and sprints which many competitors don't seem to bother with:
1) Walk the course. Actually, walk it twice.
This the one that baffles me most - so many people don't do this but to me it's just fundamental. Before your first run in the car you need to have the course mapped out in your head. You need to know the line you're going to take. You need to know where to turn in, where to apex. You need to have some idea of where you'll hit the brakes.
At a new venue I will always try to walk it twice. Once slowly, stopping to look at the corners in detail, trying to understand the line, trying to work out where to turn in, where to brake. Then I'll walk it quickly again, checking that it's been logged.
I always walk the course at a venue I've been to before and know well - there are always things to learn.
You get so little seat time at a sprint that you have to be quick from the outset. If you can be quick in P1, you'll learn more and be quicker on each subsequent run through the day. If - rather than walking the course - you use the first run as a sighter you've lost one opportunity to find the limit.
2) On-board camera
You learn so much from watching your onboard. Watch it between runs, watch it thoroughly when you get home. Even if you think you've done a perfect run, you'll always see things to do better. There's always somewhere you can carry a bit more speed, brake a bit later, or somewhere you're changing gear in a stupid place.
3) Plan your runs
Take a minute before you put on your helmet to think about your run. What are you going to do differently? Where will you try to brake later? Where will you leave it in third gear and carry the speed rather than changing down and then back up again. I find it really helpful. If you're reacting when you arrive at a corner it's too late.
I'll come back later and talk about the driving part of it.
I think I can add a few thoughts to this.
Firstly I totally agree with any other comments suggesting more track time; practice may not make perfect but it goes a long way.
Instruction. Yes you can go for full day tuition but it can be overloading for a lot of less experienced drivers and if you can afford to do a few trackdays you'd be better off in taking one or two short sessions on each than trying to cram it all into just one day.
It seems to me that the rise in drivers using day-rate coaching has reflected the increasing costs in motorsport even at club level - the cost of intensive tuition may be a small part of some drivers annual budget and it can make a good difference to overall performance but for a driver who is doing genuine budget motorsport it could eat up a large proportion of their available budget so it makes less sense to go so extreme on one area of performance.
For someone doing sprinting on a budget, 20 minute sessions may well be the equivalent of full day tuition for someone who pays a team for running a full-fat car in a big club championship and I don't agree with those suggesting they aren't useful or effective. For £40, a session early in the day should give you enough things to practice for the rest of the day and keep you improving.
Short session tuition can be variable according to who you find sat next to you for sure but different instructors will tend to pick up on different things which can accelerate your learning and if you find an instructor that you like you can always aim for other trackdays that he is working on or as you progress you could talk to him about doing a full day if you felt it would be a benefit.
I should say here that I'm a trackdayer, a racer and a regular instructor on trackdays............
Firstly I totally agree with any other comments suggesting more track time; practice may not make perfect but it goes a long way.
Instruction. Yes you can go for full day tuition but it can be overloading for a lot of less experienced drivers and if you can afford to do a few trackdays you'd be better off in taking one or two short sessions on each than trying to cram it all into just one day.
It seems to me that the rise in drivers using day-rate coaching has reflected the increasing costs in motorsport even at club level - the cost of intensive tuition may be a small part of some drivers annual budget and it can make a good difference to overall performance but for a driver who is doing genuine budget motorsport it could eat up a large proportion of their available budget so it makes less sense to go so extreme on one area of performance.
For someone doing sprinting on a budget, 20 minute sessions may well be the equivalent of full day tuition for someone who pays a team for running a full-fat car in a big club championship and I don't agree with those suggesting they aren't useful or effective. For £40, a session early in the day should give you enough things to practice for the rest of the day and keep you improving.
Short session tuition can be variable according to who you find sat next to you for sure but different instructors will tend to pick up on different things which can accelerate your learning and if you find an instructor that you like you can always aim for other trackdays that he is working on or as you progress you could talk to him about doing a full day if you felt it would be a benefit.
I should say here that I'm a trackdayer, a racer and a regular instructor on trackdays............
Galveston said:
Firstly, is the car competitive? What class are you competing in? Are you beating yourself up about your performance when actually the car is several seconds slower than your class competitors?
There's a few things I consider fundamental to doing well at hillclimbs and sprints which many competitors don't seem to bother with:
1) Walk the course. Actually, walk it twice.
This the one that baffles me most - so many people don't do this but to me it's just fundamental. Before your first run in the car you need to have the course mapped out in your head. You need to know the line you're going to take. You need to know where to turn in, where to apex. You need to have some idea of where you'll hit the brakes.
At a new venue I will always try to walk it twice. Once slowly, stopping to look at the corners in detail, trying to understand the line, trying to work out where to turn in, where to brake. Then I'll walk it quickly again, checking that it's been logged.
I always walk the course at a venue I've been to before and know well - there are always things to learn.
You get so little seat time at a sprint that you have to be quick from the outset. If you can be quick in P1, you'll learn more and be quicker on each subsequent run through the day. If - rather than walking the course - you use the first run as a sighter you've lost one opportunity to find the limit.
2) On-board camera
You learn so much from watching your onboard. Watch it between runs, watch it thoroughly when you get home. Even if you think you've done a perfect run, you'll always see things to do better. There's always somewhere you can carry a bit more speed, brake a bit later, or somewhere you're changing gear in a stupid place.
3) Plan your runs
Take a minute before you put on your helmet to think about your run. What are you going to do differently? Where will you try to brake later? Where will you leave it in third gear and carry the speed rather than changing down and then back up again. I find it really helpful. If you're reacting when you arrive at a corner it's too late.
I'll come back later and talk about the driving part of it.
Thanks very much all. Also good to hear that trackday tuition is worthwhile. There's a few things I consider fundamental to doing well at hillclimbs and sprints which many competitors don't seem to bother with:
1) Walk the course. Actually, walk it twice.
This the one that baffles me most - so many people don't do this but to me it's just fundamental. Before your first run in the car you need to have the course mapped out in your head. You need to know the line you're going to take. You need to know where to turn in, where to apex. You need to have some idea of where you'll hit the brakes.
At a new venue I will always try to walk it twice. Once slowly, stopping to look at the corners in detail, trying to understand the line, trying to work out where to turn in, where to brake. Then I'll walk it quickly again, checking that it's been logged.
I always walk the course at a venue I've been to before and know well - there are always things to learn.
You get so little seat time at a sprint that you have to be quick from the outset. If you can be quick in P1, you'll learn more and be quicker on each subsequent run through the day. If - rather than walking the course - you use the first run as a sighter you've lost one opportunity to find the limit.
2) On-board camera
You learn so much from watching your onboard. Watch it between runs, watch it thoroughly when you get home. Even if you think you've done a perfect run, you'll always see things to do better. There's always somewhere you can carry a bit more speed, brake a bit later, or somewhere you're changing gear in a stupid place.
3) Plan your runs
Take a minute before you put on your helmet to think about your run. What are you going to do differently? Where will you try to brake later? Where will you leave it in third gear and carry the speed rather than changing down and then back up again. I find it really helpful. If you're reacting when you arrive at a corner it's too late.
I'll come back later and talk about the driving part of it.
The car is a standard MK1 MX5. So it is rather slow. But not as slow as my lap time in it!
Walking the Course.
Yes. I definitely need to do more of this. At a Sprint, by the time I've worked out a course, the day could be over. This is great advice.
I will also think about recording my lap.
Having a plan is something I've been told. I think that goes hand in hand with walking the course and recording your lap. The more data you have the better you can build your lap plan.
I did a Carlimits circuit training day recently (https://carlimits.com). £279 for the day. Only 4 pupils so you a lot of time with the instructor. I found it really useful. It covers basic car control if you need it (how to grip the wheel, change gear), heel & toe technique, braking (it's amazing how hitting the brakes as hard as you can isn't the quickest way to stop) and some car control. Plenty of instruction and practice and an hour on the circuit at the end.
Having just checked the website it seems the first free slot is October. It might be worth checking what the airfield days at North Weald cover if you're interested.
Having just checked the website it seems the first free slot is October. It might be worth checking what the airfield days at North Weald cover if you're interested.
rossyl said:
The car is a standard MK1 MX5. So it is rather slow. But not as slow as my lap time in it!
But what are you competing against? Which class do you enter at sprints? If you're competing against Clios, Civics and S2000s in the <2000cc class of course you'll be off the pace. rossyl said:
At a Sprint, by the time I've worked out a course, the day could be over.
There you go, that's the problem. I know exactly where I'm going from the beginning of the day. After that it's just about making small refinements, learning where I can brake a little later etc. Before your next sprint find people's onboards on YouTube, watch them until you have a good idea of the basic layout, and then give yourself enough time to walk it properly before the event. It'll make a massive difference.
rossyl said:
I will also think about recording my lap.
Do it. A GoPro and mount is £250, less secondhand. It's such a valuable tool.a few other thoughts. people who are new to sprinting are rarely quick immediately for a number of reasons.
1. you don't know the track. as suggested before run youtube clips. over and over and over until you can drive it blindfold. pick a quick run and it will give you the braking points, later braking at sprints saves a lot of time because you carry more speed for longer. I have been sprinting for 20 years and post a lot of in car footage on youtube mainly because I can review the run next year the night before so I can remember what to do and where. I probably watch the runs 10-20 times the night before to remember every nuance of the track.
2. new decent tyres. depending on your class you don't need B list tyres so they don't need to be expensive. just make sure the rubber is reasonable and fresh. old tyres just don't work. rainsport 3 are cheap would be a good choice if they will fit.
3. suspension if the shocks are standard and old they are probably not great. maybe buy a set of adjustables. it can make a big difference.
4. time in the car - as said before - there is no substitute. I still drive to each sprint so I get used to the car. a track day or two will also help you a lot. try and go to a track day with the guys you sprint against. if you follow then you will quickly see where/how they are faster. the diference will always be on braking points and corner speed, assuming the power is similar.
5. pick a class. depending on the class you run in and what modifications you are allowed money can buy a considerable improvement in performance. Probably the best and most level playing field now is the classic marques speed championship. it is handicapped on power to weight (including the driver) and also on tyre type so it removes as far as possible car enhancements.
6. which track. if you are in a class up against more powerful cars an MX5 will struggle on the long straights and fast tracks like goodwood, coombe etc. much better suited to twisty tracks where handling is key.
good luck, don't get disheartened and keep at it you will succeed.
1. you don't know the track. as suggested before run youtube clips. over and over and over until you can drive it blindfold. pick a quick run and it will give you the braking points, later braking at sprints saves a lot of time because you carry more speed for longer. I have been sprinting for 20 years and post a lot of in car footage on youtube mainly because I can review the run next year the night before so I can remember what to do and where. I probably watch the runs 10-20 times the night before to remember every nuance of the track.
2. new decent tyres. depending on your class you don't need B list tyres so they don't need to be expensive. just make sure the rubber is reasonable and fresh. old tyres just don't work. rainsport 3 are cheap would be a good choice if they will fit.
3. suspension if the shocks are standard and old they are probably not great. maybe buy a set of adjustables. it can make a big difference.
4. time in the car - as said before - there is no substitute. I still drive to each sprint so I get used to the car. a track day or two will also help you a lot. try and go to a track day with the guys you sprint against. if you follow then you will quickly see where/how they are faster. the diference will always be on braking points and corner speed, assuming the power is similar.
5. pick a class. depending on the class you run in and what modifications you are allowed money can buy a considerable improvement in performance. Probably the best and most level playing field now is the classic marques speed championship. it is handicapped on power to weight (including the driver) and also on tyre type so it removes as far as possible car enhancements.
6. which track. if you are in a class up against more powerful cars an MX5 will struggle on the long straights and fast tracks like goodwood, coombe etc. much better suited to twisty tracks where handling is key.
good luck, don't get disheartened and keep at it you will succeed.
Edited by jesfirth on Sunday 29th April 11:20
jesfirth said:
pick a quick run and it will give you the braking points, later braking at sprints saves a lot of time because you carry more speed for longer.
For a beginner, I'd disagree with that. I reckon a common mistake at hillclimbs and sprints (and probably in all forms of motorsport) is focussing on braking as late as possible, to the detriment of the corner (and straight) that follows. You'll lose a little bit of time braking 10-20m early, but you'll gain far more by carrying speed around the corner and getting a good exit which allows you to carry extra speed all the way along the following straight.Obviously when you get to the point where you're trying to find the last few tenths it's important to maximise braking too.
jesfirth said:
good luck, don't get disheartened and keep at it you will succeed.
Yep, keep entering events and let us know how you get on!Edited by Galveston on Sunday 29th April 16:08
Jesfirth makes a good point about tyres. You need tyres that grip from cold. Track tyres are not a lot of use, because they don’t work cold. Uniroyal Rainsport 3 tyres are awesome in all conditions from monsoon to hot dry track day. And they are not silly money.
Also, find some non-competitive spring days and as well as competing yourself, take passenger rides with the good drivers and watch the lines they take and where they brake. If you can take occasional weekdays off work, www.sprintandtrackday.co.uk organise regular days at Curborough, near Burton on Trent. It costs £60 or thereabouts for the day.
Also, find some non-competitive spring days and as well as competing yourself, take passenger rides with the good drivers and watch the lines they take and where they brake. If you can take occasional weekdays off work, www.sprintandtrackday.co.uk organise regular days at Curborough, near Burton on Trent. It costs £60 or thereabouts for the day.
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