Castle Combe 29th Sep 17
Discussion
At CC today for the open track day, anyone about?
Just checked in and it's raining hard waiting for sound check, it's going to be a slippy morning!
Anyone done one here recently? My first track day in my own (recently aquired) blue e93 m3 manual. Havnt driven the circuit in real life, done a few virtual laps in TOCA touring cars and Grand Prix Legends in the past but dont think they had the chicanes then.
Just checked in and it's raining hard waiting for sound check, it's going to be a slippy morning!
Anyone done one here recently? My first track day in my own (recently aquired) blue e93 m3 manual. Havnt driven the circuit in real life, done a few virtual laps in TOCA touring cars and Grand Prix Legends in the past but dont think they had the chicanes then.
Great first track day in the M3. Rained all morning and was a very wet start out on track. Couple of good luck charms in the morning; bird **** on my helmet and Castle Combe proving the proverbial pot o' gold!
The jovial intro from the track day organizers who told us Quarry corner was responsible for 25% of UK track day accidents. Scaremongering or not I don't think anyone had an accident there all day.
Some people brought the wrong car for the conditions but it didn't stop them! Atom V8s, Caterhams and Morgan +4s joining the GT3RS and 944 Porsches amongst the daytime road going fair.
The first session only last 2-3 laps before an accident. The final turn was treacherous in a heavy RWD car on the painted grid markings which run around the corner off the S/F straight, couple of bum twitching moments in the early laps even with all the aids on! Zero camber double apex corner...
Dried up by lunchtime and switched to MDM mode with the more responsive throttle map and stayed this way for the rest of the day as it allowed some slip of the rear and the engine responds like electric and comes on song beautifully. Braking at the end of pit straight in 4th, lift, brake, off the brakes, blip shift to 3rd through Avon rise, just touching the limiter as 3rd engages and the car goes light over the crested bumps, inside rear under-celerates and squeals as I disengage the clutch a tad too quickly, gather it up pulling the car left...
...brake again for the long right hander at Quarry, tuck the nose in...
...stay off the throttle, wait for the apex, feed the throttle in, back end squirms, redline 3rd, grab 4th before braking for the chicane. In reality the M3 manual could do a quick lap with just 3rd and 4th but I used 2nd at the tighter 2nd chicane and maybe grabbed 5th a couple times. Would need to be on the old hockenheim to need 6th on a track! I've regularly driven with DSC fully off on the road but pushing the car hard on the track with close barriers only separated by wet grass I didn't think it worth the risk. I had an absolute blast blipping the throttle on the downshifts and getting everything lined up dancing between three pedals, especially over Avon rise into Quarry where the car moved around quite a lot, a fun challenge.
A friend came also, he has an M3 in E90 DCT flavour and we both had an awesome day. We went out and did a passenger run with each other at the end of the day; whereas I'm hundred percent sure we'd both be quicker over a lap in the DCT I'm happy that I got loads out of the day in terms of reward from the manual. He was much happier in the DCT concentrating on his lines. Personal preference!
The track was quite busy most sessions with a couple of stoppages from broken down cars and a couple of accidents, one of which happened right in front me on track. Don't know how he managed it but coming out of the 1st chicane a clio 182 was pushing a bit too hard trying to get the better of a well driven caterham. He lost the back end on the right hand kerbs, tank slapped, then did a long 180 across the track hard into the outside barriers, luckily the padded tyre type and not armco. Checked he was ok next lap round (luckily he was) and saw the damage, completely destroyed the entire right hand side and smashed all windows. Looked a write off from an innocuous and unlikely FWD mistake, Castle Combe is quite a costly track to make a mistake like this on it proves.
The only downer for the day was the brakes on both our M3s. In the corners and on the straights no problem keeping up but braking distances is where I lost all my time. Partly because of not wanting to push too hard but also I got brake fade after 2/3 laps which then developed into a brake vibration. My discs are original and probably not in best but condition and might need replacing. The rest of the day I just had to take it easier into the corners, lifting 50m before braking and not applying more pressure when the fade/vibration become more noticeable. Part of me thinks that before attempting another track day I should replace/upgrade the brakes.
This could get expensive.... :smoking:
The jovial intro from the track day organizers who told us Quarry corner was responsible for 25% of UK track day accidents. Scaremongering or not I don't think anyone had an accident there all day.
Some people brought the wrong car for the conditions but it didn't stop them! Atom V8s, Caterhams and Morgan +4s joining the GT3RS and 944 Porsches amongst the daytime road going fair.
The first session only last 2-3 laps before an accident. The final turn was treacherous in a heavy RWD car on the painted grid markings which run around the corner off the S/F straight, couple of bum twitching moments in the early laps even with all the aids on! Zero camber double apex corner...
Dried up by lunchtime and switched to MDM mode with the more responsive throttle map and stayed this way for the rest of the day as it allowed some slip of the rear and the engine responds like electric and comes on song beautifully. Braking at the end of pit straight in 4th, lift, brake, off the brakes, blip shift to 3rd through Avon rise, just touching the limiter as 3rd engages and the car goes light over the crested bumps, inside rear under-celerates and squeals as I disengage the clutch a tad too quickly, gather it up pulling the car left...
...brake again for the long right hander at Quarry, tuck the nose in...
...stay off the throttle, wait for the apex, feed the throttle in, back end squirms, redline 3rd, grab 4th before braking for the chicane. In reality the M3 manual could do a quick lap with just 3rd and 4th but I used 2nd at the tighter 2nd chicane and maybe grabbed 5th a couple times. Would need to be on the old hockenheim to need 6th on a track! I've regularly driven with DSC fully off on the road but pushing the car hard on the track with close barriers only separated by wet grass I didn't think it worth the risk. I had an absolute blast blipping the throttle on the downshifts and getting everything lined up dancing between three pedals, especially over Avon rise into Quarry where the car moved around quite a lot, a fun challenge.
A friend came also, he has an M3 in E90 DCT flavour and we both had an awesome day. We went out and did a passenger run with each other at the end of the day; whereas I'm hundred percent sure we'd both be quicker over a lap in the DCT I'm happy that I got loads out of the day in terms of reward from the manual. He was much happier in the DCT concentrating on his lines. Personal preference!
The track was quite busy most sessions with a couple of stoppages from broken down cars and a couple of accidents, one of which happened right in front me on track. Don't know how he managed it but coming out of the 1st chicane a clio 182 was pushing a bit too hard trying to get the better of a well driven caterham. He lost the back end on the right hand kerbs, tank slapped, then did a long 180 across the track hard into the outside barriers, luckily the padded tyre type and not armco. Checked he was ok next lap round (luckily he was) and saw the damage, completely destroyed the entire right hand side and smashed all windows. Looked a write off from an innocuous and unlikely FWD mistake, Castle Combe is quite a costly track to make a mistake like this on it proves.
The only downer for the day was the brakes on both our M3s. In the corners and on the straights no problem keeping up but braking distances is where I lost all my time. Partly because of not wanting to push too hard but also I got brake fade after 2/3 laps which then developed into a brake vibration. My discs are original and probably not in best but condition and might need replacing. The rest of the day I just had to take it easier into the corners, lifting 50m before braking and not applying more pressure when the fade/vibration become more noticeable. Part of me thinks that before attempting another track day I should replace/upgrade the brakes.
This could get expensive.... :smoking:
Edited by tenmantaylor on Monday 2nd October 15:12
It really was fun in the wet!
I imagine without it mid 25 would be attainable with the standard car on road tyres. I think 1:20 would require better tyres and brakes also, I'd say I was at 6 10ths going into corners and 8 10ths coming out.
I'll look into more track orientated pads, fluid and lines before next track day and see if that makes a difference. I've read a few places the calipers and disks are also culprits for overheating but obviously much more expensive to upgrade.
I imagine without it mid 25 would be attainable with the standard car on road tyres. I think 1:20 would require better tyres and brakes also, I'd say I was at 6 10ths going into corners and 8 10ths coming out.
I'll look into more track orientated pads, fluid and lines before next track day and see if that makes a difference. I've read a few places the calipers and disks are also culprits for overheating but obviously much more expensive to upgrade.
Edited by tenmantaylor on Sunday 1st October 17:26
Edited by tenmantaylor on Monday 2nd October 17:45
Have an ask on the M3 cutters forum, plenty there that track these cars I'd imagine. For sure the stock brakes in all M cars (apart from the new one's kind of) are notoriously inadequate and would be sensible to upgrade if you plan on spending more time on track.
I was about right with the potential time of a standard e9x however I'd imagine the brakes probably wouldn't stand up to many laps at that pace!
http://fastestlaps.com/tests/i1cn6muh3lvf
I was about right with the potential time of a standard e9x however I'd imagine the brakes probably wouldn't stand up to many laps at that pace!
http://fastestlaps.com/tests/i1cn6muh3lvf
Happy to be 10s off him first time out without pushing the brakes 
Lol, yes well shouldn't be too hard to get within a couple of seconds or so with a bit of practice.
I'm just surprised you had so much issues with the brakes given the conditions and laptimes, maybe the fluid is old, pads total s
te or whatever but worth checking over before spending loads on upgrades.
The track is actually faster now than when those times would have been done as it was resurfaced a couple of years ago providing more grip and some of the bumps in Avon rise smoothed out, layout is the same.
I'm just surprised you had so much issues with the brakes given the conditions and laptimes, maybe the fluid is old, pads total s
te or whatever but worth checking over before spending loads on upgrades.The track is actually faster now than when those times would have been done as it was resurfaced a couple of years ago providing more grip and some of the bumps in Avon rise smoothed out, layout is the same.
OK so the report states the brakes have been heavily heat cycled before and even though the pads and discs have lots left on them their are some heat/score marks on the discs (but havn't recommended replacing). Kind of conflicting advice. I'm pretty sure I wasn't pushing hard enough to cause any damage, as soon as I noticed anything I backed off. Likely previous owner?
When you say you got "brake 'fade'" do you mean the pedal went long and soft, or the pedal was still firm but reduced retardation?
If it's the former then it's most likely been caused by the fluid having boiled either during your sessions or previously and consequently being well past it's best imo.. Bearing in mind the possible 'previous heavy heat cycles" it's a consideration I guess. When was the fluid last changed, did they inspect that? Was the last change done by BMW using their stuff or by an independent using potentially better or quite possibly worse fluid? For the small cost get it replaced with some decent stuff in any case, I don't have a huge amount of trust in dealer's (or anywhere I don't know for that matter) service records and whether jobs have actually been done when they say they have.
On the plus side if BMW themselves have said there's not much wrong with the discs I'd be inclined to agree with them, any hint of them needing to be changed and I have no doubt they'd present you with a slightly eye watering quote!
If it's the former then it's most likely been caused by the fluid having boiled either during your sessions or previously and consequently being well past it's best imo.. Bearing in mind the possible 'previous heavy heat cycles" it's a consideration I guess. When was the fluid last changed, did they inspect that? Was the last change done by BMW using their stuff or by an independent using potentially better or quite possibly worse fluid? For the small cost get it replaced with some decent stuff in any case, I don't have a huge amount of trust in dealer's (or anywhere I don't know for that matter) service records and whether jobs have actually been done when they say they have.
On the plus side if BMW themselves have said there's not much wrong with the discs I'd be inclined to agree with them, any hint of them needing to be changed and I have no doubt they'd present you with a slightly eye watering quote!
Thanks - yes I was surprised they didn't recommend any action whilst stating some signs of excessive heat. They even rated them 3/3 on the good scale.
Re; brake fade I didn't so much notice the brake going long or soft, from memory it was more same pressure = less retardation + some noticeable vibration. I didn't apply more pressure to make up for it, this was my mechanical sympathy kicking in. As soon as this started happening I backed off, started asking less of the brakes, did a cool down lap and came in.
Re; brake fade I didn't so much notice the brake going long or soft, from memory it was more same pressure = less retardation + some noticeable vibration. I didn't apply more pressure to make up for it, this was my mechanical sympathy kicking in. As soon as this started happening I backed off, started asking less of the brakes, did a cool down lap and came in.
Edited by tenmantaylor on Monday 2nd October 17:44
iguana said:
Of course proper pads & fluid will make a difference, can't really expect any brakes after a single fast lap on stock stuff in a fat old girl like that.
Well yes, but a morning of wet running, a fastest lap of 1:30 and apparent sympathy towards them is hardly that much punishment for that car hence suggesting something else is up. I'd expect the stock brakes to fade very quickly doing a 1' 20" but a 1' 30"? I know they're bad, but they're can't be that bad can they? tenmantaylor said:
Re; brake fade I didn't so much notice the brake going long or soft, from memory it was more same pressure = less retardation + some noticeable vibration. I didn't apply more pressure to make up for it, this was my mechanical sympathy kicking in. As soon as this started happening I backed off, started asking less of the brakes, did a cool down lap and came in.
Hope I'm not teaching you to suck eggs etc but they will/can make a lot of noise and vibrations under duress (that's perfectly normal with drilled discs) and will require more pedal travel and effort when they really heat up, but they should still be there for you if all's working well.If I were you I'd get the fluid changed, perhaps some decent pads (do you know what you have in it at the moment?) and have another go putting a bit more faith in them before changing a whole bunch of stuff.
Get an instructor/tutor to drive your car with you in it, that's a good shout to see what it can do, plus learn the track...
I have done track days in an E46 M3 unless you are actually racing then a fluid change and a set of front Pagids etc as i found out work really well.
I had a couple of E92 but never tracked them apart from a limit handling course where at lunch time i got the use of the runway to play on i noticed the car showed its weight and arguably would need more than stock pads but i would certainly try the fluid.pad combo 1st its lot cheaper.
I had a couple of E92 but never tracked them apart from a limit handling course where at lunch time i got the use of the runway to play on i noticed the car showed its weight and arguably would need more than stock pads but i would certainly try the fluid.pad combo 1st its lot cheaper.
Thanks MOTK - the drilled holes had a lot of pad dust build up after sessions so I suspect they are bog standard ones and almost brand new; they measured at 11mm at the front and 9mm at the rear after the track day. I don't know what brand they are. Getting a rear diff seal replaced soon (slight oil misting, not leaving to chance) so will get the work quoted up. Likely cost for uprated pads fluid and lines done by an indy?
Finally got a vid uploaded. This was the last session of the day when I was most concerned about the brakes hence the big lifts.
Having timed the video with a stopwatch it would appear I managed 1m26 on the last lap of this run, the race chrono app must have been wrong. I was pushing much harder when timing with it earlier in the day, pretty confident I did a 1m24/25 when was braking later pushing harder. Kept up with the pink/green golf for one or two laps before I overheated the brakes in an earlier session.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=792&am...
Going to upgrade the pads, lines and fluid before next day. Really loved it!
Having timed the video with a stopwatch it would appear I managed 1m26 on the last lap of this run, the race chrono app must have been wrong. I was pushing much harder when timing with it earlier in the day, pretty confident I did a 1m24/25 when was braking later pushing harder. Kept up with the pink/green golf for one or two laps before I overheated the brakes in an earlier session.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=792&am...
Going to upgrade the pads, lines and fluid before next day. Really loved it!
Hope you don't mind me saying, it's only meant as helpful advice. But you will need to amend your line over Avon Rise into Quarry Corner if you start taking it any faster with your brake upgrade later. Otherwise you might be encouraging the now famous Avon Rise 'oversteer incident' as the rear end goes light over Avon Rise, especially driving one of the heavier cars. After Avon Rise aim for the traffic light at Quarry. That should see you OK. Hope that helps.
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