1st track day - track brake pads required?
Discussion
Hi everyone,
I’m doing my first track day in a couple of weeks’ time (At Blyton Eastern Circuit with Javelin Trackdays), and have a question about brakes:
Car is a 2000 Impreza turbo estate. Less than 1k miles ago I fitted new front disks and ferrodo standard pads, and am planning to fit new rear pads and disks.
I’m going to fit standard disks to the rear, but I’m wondering whether it’s worth shelling out more for uprated front and rear pads. I’m not made of money, and not all pads are available for my car, so my choice is basically standard pads or Black Diamond Fast Track pads.
So I guess my question is; will running standard pads spoil my track day with fade etc, making it worth buying the Black Diamond pads, or am I unlikely to get to this stage on my 1st track day? If I don’t buy the Black Diamonds I’ll get a spare set of front pads in case I chew through a set on the day.
I’m planning to build up speed slowly, and I’m just doing it for a laugh, a chance to drive quickly in a safer environment than the backroads, and to generally improve my ability. I’ve got 2 sessions of tuition booked as I’m pretty sure that’s the best improvement I’ll get for the money.
I’ve read as much as I can find on prepping for a track day, but does this plan and prep seem sensible: I’ve had the car about 6 months. It seems to have generally been looked after. I’ve changed the oil and filter (used Millers’ EE nanotech) about 1k miles ago, and the gearbox oil for redline shockwave at the same time (which improved/hid the crunch when shifting up to 5th). I’ve also changed the cam belt and rollers and the water pump. It’s got fresh brake fluid in it, but I was thinking of changing it for Millers’ racing 300+ before the day (unless that's overkill?). I’ve got AD08Rs on it that were fitted about 1K miles ago.
So what do you reckon about standard v black diamond pads, and anything else I might have missed prep-wise for the car?
Thanks!
I’m doing my first track day in a couple of weeks’ time (At Blyton Eastern Circuit with Javelin Trackdays), and have a question about brakes:
Car is a 2000 Impreza turbo estate. Less than 1k miles ago I fitted new front disks and ferrodo standard pads, and am planning to fit new rear pads and disks.
I’m going to fit standard disks to the rear, but I’m wondering whether it’s worth shelling out more for uprated front and rear pads. I’m not made of money, and not all pads are available for my car, so my choice is basically standard pads or Black Diamond Fast Track pads.
So I guess my question is; will running standard pads spoil my track day with fade etc, making it worth buying the Black Diamond pads, or am I unlikely to get to this stage on my 1st track day? If I don’t buy the Black Diamonds I’ll get a spare set of front pads in case I chew through a set on the day.
I’m planning to build up speed slowly, and I’m just doing it for a laugh, a chance to drive quickly in a safer environment than the backroads, and to generally improve my ability. I’ve got 2 sessions of tuition booked as I’m pretty sure that’s the best improvement I’ll get for the money.
I’ve read as much as I can find on prepping for a track day, but does this plan and prep seem sensible: I’ve had the car about 6 months. It seems to have generally been looked after. I’ve changed the oil and filter (used Millers’ EE nanotech) about 1k miles ago, and the gearbox oil for redline shockwave at the same time (which improved/hid the crunch when shifting up to 5th). I’ve also changed the cam belt and rollers and the water pump. It’s got fresh brake fluid in it, but I was thinking of changing it for Millers’ racing 300+ before the day (unless that's overkill?). I’ve got AD08Rs on it that were fitted about 1K miles ago.
So what do you reckon about standard v black diamond pads, and anything else I might have missed prep-wise for the car?
Thanks!
I did my first track day in a bog standard Toyota MR2. I just had an oil, filter and cambelt change. It had normal dot 4 brake fluid and road tyres. The only thing to watch out for is don't stay out too long. Do something like 15 minutes and bring the car in to cool down (you as well). Don't put the handbrake on when you're in the pits. Leave the car in gear, otherwise cracking as disk is a possibility.
And have fun.
And have fun.
From memory of my old '97 turbo, the brakes will probably struggle from a heat point of view, but I'd work around that and do short sessions instead.
Reason being, higher temp pads will just mean youre pushing the problem to the fluid.. and so on. Also for your first day it rather depends on you and the track. Usual advice, stop at the first hint of issues, let it cool. Do not put the handbrake on, use the brakes hard and for a short time rather than a long gentle stop, have fun.
I don't know the first thing about the pads that you mention, but 'fast track' sets off alarm bells. You may well find that they're utterly useless at road pace and temperature.
Reason being, higher temp pads will just mean youre pushing the problem to the fluid.. and so on. Also for your first day it rather depends on you and the track. Usual advice, stop at the first hint of issues, let it cool. Do not put the handbrake on, use the brakes hard and for a short time rather than a long gentle stop, have fun.
I don't know the first thing about the pads that you mention, but 'fast track' sets off alarm bells. You may well find that they're utterly useless at road pace and temperature.
My first trackday in an Evo 10 was an expensive mistake due to using standard brake pads. They lasted until mid morning when they fell apart and some of the pad material welded itself to the disc. That was a few years ago, I soon realised that standard pads are not up to it in cars that are not the lightest.
Pads are as important as fluid in my experience. The standard pads in my Alfa would have had me off on the first corner if I'd tracked it. I changed them to ds2500 for everyday driving, for track work I'd use dsUno or ds3000. Ds3000 are harsh though and a last resort.
It's all about how hard you intend to push really.
It's all about how hard you intend to push really.
I've done a couple of track days in my EP3 Civic now.
I can definately recommend you use ATE 200 (superblue) brake fluid. Also check the condition of your braking system in general - i.e no sticking sliders etc as any issues like that will show up a lot more on track.
For my last 2 track days I've used the same set- OEM Honda pads on Brembo discs. The pads have definately had a fair amount of temperature through them with what looks to be a very slight bit of disintegration on the extreme edges of the pad, but are still fine for commuting / road use. Discs are in great condition still.
I've just picked up another set of Honda pads to put on for the next track day in a months time. To be honest, I can't really afford some of the more track orientated pads. The car certainly brakes well enough on the standard stuff with the ATE fluid but I only run about 10-15 minute sessions before coming back in to cool off. Start off on the standard pads, don't go balls out straight away and see how you get on. Track days are great at exposing the 'weaknesses' of cars so if the brakes are proven to be gash you know where to start for the next one!
I can definately recommend you use ATE 200 (superblue) brake fluid. Also check the condition of your braking system in general - i.e no sticking sliders etc as any issues like that will show up a lot more on track.
For my last 2 track days I've used the same set- OEM Honda pads on Brembo discs. The pads have definately had a fair amount of temperature through them with what looks to be a very slight bit of disintegration on the extreme edges of the pad, but are still fine for commuting / road use. Discs are in great condition still.
I've just picked up another set of Honda pads to put on for the next track day in a months time. To be honest, I can't really afford some of the more track orientated pads. The car certainly brakes well enough on the standard stuff with the ATE fluid but I only run about 10-15 minute sessions before coming back in to cool off. Start off on the standard pads, don't go balls out straight away and see how you get on. Track days are great at exposing the 'weaknesses' of cars so if the brakes are proven to be gash you know where to start for the next one!
Have tracked a few road cars. Really depends on the car. My MR2 was fine on OEMs, my CLK55 was not!
I echoe others who caution road pads and standard fluid, unless your car is known for being fine on track with OEMs I would go track fluid and upgraded pads every time.
At the least a false economy using OEM or at worse damage or brake failure (had it and it's not fun, even with loads of run off).
As others say, warm up and cool down laps and leave the car in gear when parked rather than hand brake on. Check tyre pressure throughout the day also as it will increase.
I echoe others who caution road pads and standard fluid, unless your car is known for being fine on track with OEMs I would go track fluid and upgraded pads every time.
At the least a false economy using OEM or at worse damage or brake failure (had it and it's not fun, even with loads of run off).
As others say, warm up and cool down laps and leave the car in gear when parked rather than hand brake on. Check tyre pressure throughout the day also as it will increase.
It very much depends on car, track, ability etc. However I wrote this a while back on the Clio forum:
[i]Everytime the subject of what brakes/pads to use when on track comes up, I like to promote the merits of good quality branded OE level setup and spending more is a false economy. Now I'm talking well known quality brands such as brembo/mintex etc, but just the standard stuff, for both pads AND discs. (mintex is my preference).
In my experience, apart from accelerated wear, i've never had any major issues. The one time I did get issues was was after several laps of tuition at Rockingham on a very hot (31degree) day and I had no ducting to my brakes. I have since removed the fogs and added basic ducts to the rear of the wheel arch (no fancy shields or guides behind the arches either).
With regards to wear - I tend to find a new set of pads will last 2-3 tracks days and several months of fast road driving in between. So bearing in mind a set of Mintex pads are £15-20 on ebay, £25 at factors, even if this last a quarter as long as 'fast road' pads they are saving me money, and I suspect fast road pads wear faster or as fast as the OE stuff, so a missive saving.
Now the further argument is performance, which unless you are chasing the last 10ths is a fruitless reason, when its a heavily consumable part. Its not like a set of track tyres that you can swap on and off for road use, and can make up seconds of laptime, not 10ths.
This isnt also an opinion based on 1-2 trackdays. Ive now done 12, 8 in the current 182, in its current spec, and all 8 of those one 1 set of Mintex Discs, (and several pads!)
I generally I get accused of being lucky or driving too gently, which is why my OE parts aren't failing .
Well luck wouldn't last for 12 trackdays - and to disprove the driving to slow - this is my final stint at Silverstone last week - a near 30min stint of consistent fast laps (2:41-2:45), which IMO is way up there on pace (FWD production record is only 2:30), and on the full GP with 3 BIG braking zones, so this is a good and fair test.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pK68hPpfCH8
So to sum up, whilst there is no harm in getting track orientated equipment, as Tesco say, 'every little helps', IMO add brakes near the bottom of your list if you want to spend money on more useful things, like the actual track days, or tuition, or tyres, or balls.[/i]
[i]Everytime the subject of what brakes/pads to use when on track comes up, I like to promote the merits of good quality branded OE level setup and spending more is a false economy. Now I'm talking well known quality brands such as brembo/mintex etc, but just the standard stuff, for both pads AND discs. (mintex is my preference).
In my experience, apart from accelerated wear, i've never had any major issues. The one time I did get issues was was after several laps of tuition at Rockingham on a very hot (31degree) day and I had no ducting to my brakes. I have since removed the fogs and added basic ducts to the rear of the wheel arch (no fancy shields or guides behind the arches either).
With regards to wear - I tend to find a new set of pads will last 2-3 tracks days and several months of fast road driving in between. So bearing in mind a set of Mintex pads are £15-20 on ebay, £25 at factors, even if this last a quarter as long as 'fast road' pads they are saving me money, and I suspect fast road pads wear faster or as fast as the OE stuff, so a missive saving.
Now the further argument is performance, which unless you are chasing the last 10ths is a fruitless reason, when its a heavily consumable part. Its not like a set of track tyres that you can swap on and off for road use, and can make up seconds of laptime, not 10ths.
This isnt also an opinion based on 1-2 trackdays. Ive now done 12, 8 in the current 182, in its current spec, and all 8 of those one 1 set of Mintex Discs, (and several pads!)
I generally I get accused of being lucky or driving too gently, which is why my OE parts aren't failing .
Well luck wouldn't last for 12 trackdays - and to disprove the driving to slow - this is my final stint at Silverstone last week - a near 30min stint of consistent fast laps (2:41-2:45), which IMO is way up there on pace (FWD production record is only 2:30), and on the full GP with 3 BIG braking zones, so this is a good and fair test.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pK68hPpfCH8
So to sum up, whilst there is no harm in getting track orientated equipment, as Tesco say, 'every little helps', IMO add brakes near the bottom of your list if you want to spend money on more useful things, like the actual track days, or tuition, or tyres, or balls.[/i]
If it is your first ever trackday , just run the car in standard format. You are obviously mindful about the brakes so keep that in the back of your mind and be sensitive to the pedal going long if you stay out for too long.
Do short stints so as to not over burden yourself or the car.
Once you have decided you have a liking for more trackdays , thats the time to look at upgrading various bits and bobs ,not for a one off.
Have fun
Do short stints so as to not over burden yourself or the car.
Once you have decided you have a liking for more trackdays , thats the time to look at upgrading various bits and bobs ,not for a one off.
Have fun
Far Cough said:
If it is your first ever trackday , just run the car in standard format. You are obviously mindful about the brakes so keep that in the back of your mind and be sensitive to the pedal going long if you stay out for too long.
Do short stints so as to not over burden yourself or the car.
Once you have decided you have a liking for more trackdays , thats the time to look at upgrading various bits and bobs ,not for a one off.
Have fun
This. So much this. I run OE-spec pads and boggo fluid on my track car, and get on just fine.Do short stints so as to not over burden yourself or the car.
Once you have decided you have a liking for more trackdays , thats the time to look at upgrading various bits and bobs ,not for a one off.
Have fun
Driving sensibly won't see complete brake failure appearing out of nowhere. Keep your stints down to 10-15min, with the same for cooling in the pits (handbrake off, in gear). Check your braking system over before you go (no leaks, no sticky calipers, plenty of pad material), and be mindful of what the pedal is feeding back to you (spongey or long = into the pits).
Far too many trackdayers go unnecessarily down the "because racecar" route by default, when it's entirely possible to have a bloody good and safe time on track without spending thousands on upgrades. Just be sensible, and I'm sure you'll be grand.
Precisely. Figure out if you have a problem, and even if you're going to do more trackdays before going nuts to solve a problem that *might* happen. If cars braking systems were as fragile as a lot of TD folks seem to think, the manufacturers would be up to their eyeballs in liability claims.
FWIW both the cars I've tracked have done fine on standard pads and fluid. Boxster S and a Mx5. Both driven very hard.
FWIW both the cars I've tracked have done fine on standard pads and fluid. Boxster S and a Mx5. Both driven very hard.
upsidedownmark said:
Precisely. Figure out if you have a problem, and even if you're going to do more trackdays before going nuts to solve a problem that *might* happen. If cars braking systems were as fragile as a lot of TD folks seem to think, the manufacturers would be up to their eyeballs in liability claims.
FWIW both the cars I've tracked have done fine on standard pads and fluid. Boxster S and a Mx5. Both driven very hard.
Given your username, should we trust your advice? FWIW both the cars I've tracked have done fine on standard pads and fluid. Boxster S and a Mx5. Both driven very hard.
was a brit living in aus when I signed up..upsidedownmark said:
Precisely. Figure out if you have a problem, and even if you're going to do more trackdays before going nuts to solve a problem that *might* happen. If cars braking systems were as fragile as a lot of TD folks seem to think, the manufacturers would be up to their eyeballs in liability claims.
FWIW both the cars I've tracked have done fine on standard pads and fluid. Boxster S and a Mx5. Both driven very hard.
God yes.FWIW both the cars I've tracked have done fine on standard pads and fluid. Boxster S and a Mx5. Both driven very hard.
Some of the conversations here (and on various TD groups) make it sound like everyone is preparing for a 24hr endurance race, rather than a few hours on track. I remember seeing a post on the TrackTime facebook group about a guy whose super-spec track car (he'd thrown ~£30k at it) had finally made it out. He invited everyone to watch his videos - the driving was absolutely atrocious. He'd have been faster, and probably had more fun, in a standard £1500 Clio.
Some people like spending money on stuff. Some people also like to tell other people how much money they've spent on stuff, and/or how they have the "best" stuff available.
This doesn't mean that everyone needs to spend money on stuff to have a good time.
To help put this in perspective, I have recently bought an MX5 for trackdays and I have changed the disks, bought some decent pads and changed the fluid. It is not to give me awesome brakes, it is just to ensure that the brakes can cope and that I don't get brake fade.
Would the standard disks, pads and fluid be o? Maybe, but I don't want my day cut short for the sake of a couple of hundred quid.
Would the standard disks, pads and fluid be o? Maybe, but I don't want my day cut short for the sake of a couple of hundred quid.
SuitableMike said:
So what do you reckon about standard v black diamond pads, and anything else I might have missed prep-wise for the car?
Thanks!
Go for standard/oem spec (ferodo preferably as you've got them on the front) on the rears. Thanks!
What you don't do with oem front pads is go fitting the likes of DS2500 to the rears... Way more likely to hit a bad situation with the rears locking if you get to a point the fronts start going off.
Enjoy.
They're also so slow through the apex and off the corner they have a bunch less speed coming into the next corner, so I call nonsense.
No road car is going to be capable of sustained lapping without cooking a bunch of things, not even with dot whatever and because-racecar pads/discs. Nor is the driver.
It's all just shades of grey, and how long you make the sessions. For your first track day better keeping them short for the car and the driver; if you're half trying you'll be exhausted by the end of the day anyhow.
No road car is going to be capable of sustained lapping without cooking a bunch of things, not even with dot whatever and because-racecar pads/discs. Nor is the driver.
It's all just shades of grey, and how long you make the sessions. For your first track day better keeping them short for the car and the driver; if you're half trying you'll be exhausted by the end of the day anyhow.
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