Clio, Megane or MIni JCW?
Discussion
Hey guys
I'd like to do a few trackdays but need a 4 seater. Will be stripping out everything apart from seats. Was thinking of a 182 or 197 cup or a Mini JCW for £3k but could also possibly get a Megane R26 or 200 cup at a push for £4.5k but that wouldn't leave anything in kittty for upgrades. What would you go for and why?
N.B. Could also look at 205 GTI but have a feeling they would be fragile?
I'd like to do a few trackdays but need a 4 seater. Will be stripping out everything apart from seats. Was thinking of a 182 or 197 cup or a Mini JCW for £3k but could also possibly get a Megane R26 or 200 cup at a push for £4.5k but that wouldn't leave anything in kittty for upgrades. What would you go for and why?
N.B. Could also look at 205 GTI but have a feeling they would be fragile?
Edited by jassihayre on Tuesday 8th November 18:50
Each car has its own benefits from a performance point of view. The Mini R53 has the obvious benefit of being supercharged & hence altering the pulley size is an easy upgrade. I'm guessing you've hopefully budgeted to carryout some form of suspension/brake upgrade on each possible option as cars at this budget level are unlikely to have suspension in its prime & upgrading brakes can initially be as simple as track based pads & racing fluid. I've a friend or two with R53 Minis & the general feeling is that the extra cost of a JCW isn't necessarily worth it over the cost of a Cooper S - they also say the supercharger whine is addictive. If you're looking for a modified R53, you should have a squint at the Minitorque forum.
Stripping the car to make it lighter. Did it to a Mx5 and made a good bit of difference.
Could also look at dc2 type r?
Budgeting for race pads, front bucket seats, harness and suspension tweaks if required to start with and then see what else needs / wants upgrading.
Do you think the consumables on the R26 and R53 would be significantly higher than than a 182?
Could also look at dc2 type r?
Budgeting for race pads, front bucket seats, harness and suspension tweaks if required to start with and then see what else needs / wants upgrading.
Do you think the consumables on the R26 and R53 would be significantly higher than than a 182?
timbo999 said:
A standard R53 will almost certainly require the front brakes upgraded for track work to at least R56S/JCW specification. Even then mine overheat/vibrate/go through pads at a prodigious rate.
However, they are otherwise brilliant on track (in my opinion...) straight out of the box.
If the OP looks at my thread on turning an R56 MCS into an occasional track day car, he'll see what I've done and whilst I've removed the back seats, the belts etc. are all still there so it can be easily put back into a fully working car. I've taken opinion from several trusted friends who are in the business of tuning cars and the advice was to run standard sized discs all round (i.e std R56 discs), upgrade the fluid and throw in some good front pads which I've done (Ferrodo DS2500s). I run Yoko ADO8Rs on the car and with the brakes as they are, you'd have to drive it very very hard IMO on a very warm day to see any real brake fade and with the fact that most track day attendees go out on circuit for say 20-30 minutes maximum at a time, then you're unlikely to overwhelm the brakes as you don't get the very hard braking from really high speeds, unless you're at somewhere like Bedford on the GT circuit where you can reach some really decent speeds which then require heavy braking.However, they are otherwise brilliant on track (in my opinion...) straight out of the box.
If you're able to find a car with uprated JCW sized brakes, then great, but otherwise the possible half-way house is to put R56 sized front brakes on (which will be a lot less cost-wise than JCW) and spend the rest on pads and regular fluid changes. FWIW, I'm running circa 250bhp, so that's a fair bit more than you're likely to get from a mildly tuned R53.
Worth noting that R53 JCW brakes and R56 Cooper S are the same in terms of disk and caliper size - only differences are carriers and some red paint - so I think we are in agreement.
However I do find my R56 S brakes on my otherwise standard R53 do get very hot and have a nasty vibration/ pedal feel when at Goodwood although don't lack power. They are due to be checked over by SR&R on Friday as I keep reading they should be better on track as you say... maybe there is something wrong...
However I do find my R56 S brakes on my otherwise standard R53 do get very hot and have a nasty vibration/ pedal feel when at Goodwood although don't lack power. They are due to be checked over by SR&R on Friday as I keep reading they should be better on track as you say... maybe there is something wrong...
I have personally been throwing exactly the same conundrum around in my head since selling my 328 with EXACTLY the same 3 cars, and have driven all now (although due to financial forces out of my control) I am having to delay for now.
182 - perfect for exactly what you describe, 2005 car £2000, suspension/brakes £1000, inlet/exhaust/remap £1000 job done, take your time & do it bit by bit, close to 200bhp is realistically possible.
Megane 225 - too fragile, not significantly enough faster unless you go to the R26 with the LSD & Brembos.
Mini R53 Cooper S - 2005 Car £2500, remap/pulley/belt/intercooler £1000, suspension/brakes £1000, drives like a go-kart.
My personal preference would probably be the 182 due to weight, or the mini if you wanted a younger car.
Alternatively a Fiesta ST 150 2008 for £3000 with a £1200 visit to Puma speed, which will give over 180bhp, and they already handle fantastic with better build quality that the Renault.
But not the 197 as they are slower than the 182 in standard trim due to being around 200kg heavier.
182 - perfect for exactly what you describe, 2005 car £2000, suspension/brakes £1000, inlet/exhaust/remap £1000 job done, take your time & do it bit by bit, close to 200bhp is realistically possible.
Megane 225 - too fragile, not significantly enough faster unless you go to the R26 with the LSD & Brembos.
Mini R53 Cooper S - 2005 Car £2500, remap/pulley/belt/intercooler £1000, suspension/brakes £1000, drives like a go-kart.
My personal preference would probably be the 182 due to weight, or the mini if you wanted a younger car.
Alternatively a Fiesta ST 150 2008 for £3000 with a £1200 visit to Puma speed, which will give over 180bhp, and they already handle fantastic with better build quality that the Renault.
But not the 197 as they are slower than the 182 in standard trim due to being around 200kg heavier.
I have personally been throwing exactly the same conundrum around in my head since selling my 328 with EXACTLY the same 3 cars, and have driven all now (although due to financial forces out of my control) I am having to delay for now.
182 - perfect for exactly what you describe, 2005 car £2000, suspension/brakes £1000, inlet/exhaust/remap £1000 job done, take your time & do it bit by bit, close to 200bhp is realistically possible.
Megane 225 - too fragile, not significantly enough faster unless you go to the R26 with the LSD & Brembos.
Mini R53 Cooper S - 2005 Car £2500, remap/pulley/belt/intercooler £1000, suspension/brakes £1000, drives like a go-kart.
My personal preference would probably be the 182 due to weight, or the mini if you wanted a younger car.
Alternatively a Fiesta ST 150 2008 for £3000 with a £1200 visit to Puma speed, which will give over 180bhp, and they already handle fantastic with better build quality that the Renault.
But not the 197 as they are slower than the 182 in standard trim due to being around 200kg heavier, and they sound just like a sewing machine!
182 - perfect for exactly what you describe, 2005 car £2000, suspension/brakes £1000, inlet/exhaust/remap £1000 job done, take your time & do it bit by bit, close to 200bhp is realistically possible.
Megane 225 - too fragile, not significantly enough faster unless you go to the R26 with the LSD & Brembos.
Mini R53 Cooper S - 2005 Car £2500, remap/pulley/belt/intercooler £1000, suspension/brakes £1000, drives like a go-kart.
My personal preference would probably be the 182 due to weight, or the mini if you wanted a younger car.
Alternatively a Fiesta ST 150 2008 for £3000 with a £1200 visit to Puma speed, which will give over 180bhp, and they already handle fantastic with better build quality that the Renault.
But not the 197 as they are slower than the 182 in standard trim due to being around 200kg heavier, and they sound just like a sewing machine!
jassihayre said:
My head is saying DC2, meant to a race car out the shell but gut tells me i'll grow weary of having to stay in the VTEC zone!
isn't track driving about staying at the top end? regardless of vtec?track driving a turbo would be a little bit dull no? changing gear early to ride the torque... nahh... keep it near the limiter, balanced...working every bit hard.
Tootle home in OAP Civic mode
jassihayre said:
My head is saying DC2, meant to a race car out the shell but gut tells me i'll grow weary of having to stay in the VTEC zone!
Um I assume you have not yet tried a Vtec car, they don't suddenly go from being 50hp at 6000rpm to 200hp at 8000rpm.A DC2 is much closer to a track car out the box than any of the other suggestions. Out of your original suggestions the Mini R53 Cooper S or JCW with the factory lsd would be preferable to a 182
My opinion having driven both the clio 197 and mini r35 (supercharged one) not had a go in a megane so cant comment on them.
The mini: I origionally went out to purchase mini and after driving one (may of been a dud) It didn't inspire me personally. Car felt heavy and not all that exciting, they have a lot of issues from what ive read (stuff like timing chain tensioners, build up on valves ect).
The clio: I went somewhere to view a corsa VXR that they had and after driving it decided that it was a fast and nice car but that particular one was a bit too battered for me, looked like the head gasket had gone and they had no service history on a obviously modified car which I don't mind modifications if I know what has been done and by who. which is when I saw the clio, it was well priced and low mileage, took it for a test drive and put the deposit down straight away. They have a long list of issues so its worth buying one with the manifold replaced to a ktec or similar and the engine mounts uprated. The build quality isn't great everything rattles but when you drive it its a good handling car with great looks and an abundance of good 'extras' for the money. Ive not done any real track work in mine yet but have done curborough and enjoyed it with the car handling well and taking the abuse well. The breaks are great from standard and a well serviced engine with the cambelt history will take a fair battering (although not as much as a vtec). they don't tune as well as the other cars so what you get is what you get, so if you think you'll get bored of the power quickly then go for a mini. The 172 and 182 all seem good fun also but having never driven one I couldn't comment.
You can pick a decent 197 up for £3500 throw it on coilovers, £700 ish, exhaust £400 ish strip and seat and your around the 5k mark.
Hope this helps
The mini: I origionally went out to purchase mini and after driving one (may of been a dud) It didn't inspire me personally. Car felt heavy and not all that exciting, they have a lot of issues from what ive read (stuff like timing chain tensioners, build up on valves ect).
The clio: I went somewhere to view a corsa VXR that they had and after driving it decided that it was a fast and nice car but that particular one was a bit too battered for me, looked like the head gasket had gone and they had no service history on a obviously modified car which I don't mind modifications if I know what has been done and by who. which is when I saw the clio, it was well priced and low mileage, took it for a test drive and put the deposit down straight away. They have a long list of issues so its worth buying one with the manifold replaced to a ktec or similar and the engine mounts uprated. The build quality isn't great everything rattles but when you drive it its a good handling car with great looks and an abundance of good 'extras' for the money. Ive not done any real track work in mine yet but have done curborough and enjoyed it with the car handling well and taking the abuse well. The breaks are great from standard and a well serviced engine with the cambelt history will take a fair battering (although not as much as a vtec). they don't tune as well as the other cars so what you get is what you get, so if you think you'll get bored of the power quickly then go for a mini. The 172 and 182 all seem good fun also but having never driven one I couldn't comment.
You can pick a decent 197 up for £3500 throw it on coilovers, £700 ish, exhaust £400 ish strip and seat and your around the 5k mark.
Hope this helps
The MINI R53 (not R35 - that's an entirely different car!) engine doesn't suffer from timing chain or coking issues (you're thinking of the gen 2 R56 I suspect) and is considered fairly robust (for a MINI!).
However if you're going to tune the car, my view is that your car choice might well be influenced by the proximity of a specialist who can tune it for you. Part of the reason I chose a MINI is that I live 5 miles from SR&R.
However if you're going to tune the car, my view is that your car choice might well be influenced by the proximity of a specialist who can tune it for you. Part of the reason I chose a MINI is that I live 5 miles from SR&R.
Edited by timbo999 on Monday 14th November 22:48
E-bmw said:
I re-iterate my earlier comment Clio 197, no faster or better accelerating than Clio 182 & sounds like a sewing machine!
To the extent that they are painful on a motorway!
no faster but they're still a great car even if they do sit at 4000rpm when sitting on a motorway at 70 :') but im young and its by far the quietest comfiest car ive driven down a motorway (although not for much longer). the 197 is also noticeably worse on fuel compared to the 182 (not sure on the mini) i get around 22 ish mpg tootling to work and back and 27-30 on a good run.To the extent that they are painful on a motorway!
timbo999 said:
The MINI R53 (not R35 - that's an entirely different car!) engine doesn't suffer from timing chain or coking issues (you're thinking of the gen 2 R56 I suspect) and is considered fairly robust (for a MINI!).
However if your going to tune the car, my view is that your car choice might well be influenced by the proximity of a specialist who can tune it for you. Part of the reason I chose a MINI is that I live 5 miles from SR&R.
sorry my mini knowledge isnt all that great, they are a great sounding car and as i say a very tune-able car. I certainly wouldnt turn down a gp if i had the chance!!However if your going to tune the car, my view is that your car choice might well be influenced by the proximity of a specialist who can tune it for you. Part of the reason I chose a MINI is that I live 5 miles from SR&R.
timbo999 said:
The MINI R53 (not R35 - that's an entirely different car!) engine doesn't suffer from timing chain or coking issues (you're thinking of the gen 2 R56 I suspect) and is considered fairly robust (for a MINI!).
However if your going to tune the car, my view is that your car choice might well be influenced by the proximity of a specialist who can tune it for you. Part of the reason I chose a MINI is that I live 5 miles from SR&R.
As Timbo999 said, the R53s are more robust although ideally find a car that's has the majority of your required mods done & you'll pay a fraction of what the original cost to the owner would have been. The downside to the R53 is that it's slightly limited compared to an R56 when it comes to chasing the bhp gains, though they'll still entertain on the track.However if your going to tune the car, my view is that your car choice might well be influenced by the proximity of a specialist who can tune it for you. Part of the reason I chose a MINI is that I live 5 miles from SR&R.
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