Traction Control On Or Off?

[sprogthedog]

Got a couple of days booked next week at Rockingham and Abingdon.

Taking my E46.

I'm still a bit of a novice and the last car I tracked was FWD.

So the question is would I be better leaving the TC on, or switching it off?

My plan was to leave it on for a couple of sessions until I got to know the circuit/car and then have a go with it off.

Thoughts.

[Boring_Chris]

Turn it off and don't treat the throttle like an on/off switch.

If you're that concerned then find a karting circuit, wait for a wet day (plenty at the minute!) and put some time in.

(For me, going on track with T/C on is like playing 11-a-side with a size 3 ball. Sorry to sound harsh)

[upsidedownmark]

I think you're smart to start with it on.

If you're a complete newbie, chances are you'll be a bit swamped for a while - keep the safety net. It's not going to stop you getting a bit of a slide on, especially on corner entry, it will only curb the worst on throttle moments.

If however you have the option of full stability control, I'm somewhat against that, for the reason that it masks bad inputs / impedes your ability to learn the car.

[tsinc]

I tried to keep the DSC on when I first went on track with my E46 M3…it lasted about 3 corners before getting switched off. It is awful. It tries to grab the inside wheel all the bloody time and was causing far more issues than I could have with it switched off.

If it's wet, leave it on for now. If it's dry try a few laps with it on until you realise how awful it is, then switch it off and enjoy driving a lot quicker and feel a lot safer..

You may have M-Track mode depending what year the car is (and if it is an M3), this is a half on/off setting which allows some slip but won't let you spin out of control.

[Hol]

When we had the 182, I used to run with it off but turned it on for really wet track days, where it helped keep me on the better wet line rather than hindered progress (on a dry grippy day).

I do feel a bit 'dirty' admitting to that though...


But.. It was the wife's car and I didn't want to trash it.

[sprogthedog]

Thanks for that everyone

It's only a 323i, but the back is a bit lively at the best of times!!

I've heard some horror stories of chewing a set of rear pads with it on. Truth or internet lies?

[gruffalo]

tsinc said:

I tried to keep the DSC on when I first went on track with my E46 M3…it lasted about 3 corners before getting switched off. It is awful. It tries to grab the inside wheel all the bloody time and was causing far more issues than I could have with it switched off.

If it's wet, leave it on for now. If it's dry try a few laps with it on until you realise how awful it is, then switch it off and enjoy driving a lot quicker and feel a lot safer..

You may have M-Track mode depending what year the car is (and if it is an M3), this is a half on/off setting which allows some slip but won't let you spin out of control.

What he says, especially if wet at Rockingham, that place is like a skid pan in the wet.

[E-bmw]

sprogthedog said:

Thanks for that everyone

It's only a 323i, but the back is a bit lively at the best of times!!

I've heard some horror stories of chewing a set of rear pads with it on. Truth or internet lies?

Don't know whether the pads thing is a lie or not, but if it is anything like the e36 (and it is) then the tail-happiness is down to the open diff, with an LSD fitted the cars were transformed, I did it on a 325 & 328 e36.

I think the ting to do is to be sensible & try with, see how you get on & then try off & see what you think.

What-ever works for others in their car may not work for you in your car, ONLY you can tell which is best.

[NJH]

tsinc said:

I tried to keep the DSC on when I first went on track with my E46 M3…it lasted about 3 corners before getting switched off. It is awful. It tries to grab the inside wheel all the bloody time and was causing far more issues than I could have with it switched off.

I had a similar experience with the ESC on my Megane R26. I left it on for one session (auto resets each time the ignition is turned off) and found the car was just as lively if not more than with it off as it tries to fight what your doing with the car so its less fluid and enjoyable. Also tends to kill the rear brakes as they tend to use em to stabilise the car. Bizarrely that car doesn't torque steer at all with it off but torque steers like a pig with it on (well mine does at least). Unfortunately in many cars you can't really turn it fully off or it will reset to on once a certain speed is reached (all mk2 Meganes prior to R26/R26.R for example).

[MG CHRIS]

If rockingham is wet or even damp be extremely cautious its the most slippery track going and stay of the white lines on the banking can cause the car to become sideways very quickly.

[rallycross]

E46 323 first thing you need to do is switch it off ( fully off ).
Also put some more psi in the rear tyres to try and make it less of an under steering turd 35 psi at the rear is far too high but it will at least help you get the back end to come to life.

[Vladikar]

I'm in a similar position but my car is an R26R - same question similar answer? Few laps with it on until I get more confident then try with it off?

I'm having tuition anyway so I'm sure I'll have the answer by then too!

[xjay1337]

I did Donnington at the weekend.
It stayed on. Didn't cause me any issues at all and where as no matter how good you are, if you get a rear wheel on the grass it's all so easy to spin it, I don't see the point in trying turning off ESP in your road car on the track especially if you have to drive home in it.

Had a couple of moments, one I was able to save pretty easily, the other was at nearly 90mph and the back end decided it wanted to swap ends going into the old hairpin, you can't beat independent braking.

I think turning TCS/ESP off for the sake of being able to say you've turned it off as some sort of bragging right is stupid.

[upsidedownmark]

xjay1337 said:

I did Donnington at the weekend.
It stayed on. Didn't cause me any issues at all and where as no matter how good you are, if you get a rear wheel on the grass it's all so easy to spin it, I don't see the point in trying turning off ESP in your road car on the track especially if you have to drive home in it.

Had a couple of moments, one I was able to save pretty easily, the other was at nearly 90mph and the back end decided it wanted to swap ends going into the old hairpin, you can't beat independent braking.

I think turning TCS/ESP off for the sake of being able to say you've turned it off as some sort of bragging right is stupid.

There are many good reasons to. Car control is not rocket science, and there are few better places to learn it than on a track. If you're good, you preempt the problem, and don't put that wheel there, or anticipate the correction that's going to happen. Not quite the wild west you'd like to think it is.

Aside from the more crude implementations impeding your progress, having it on masks a lot of the driving errors that you would otherwise learn before they become critical; eventually even the ESP will run out of ideas and authority, by which time you're a whole load further into the problem than you would have been without it. You finish up with people running around mashing the pedals like loons while all the electrons sort it out, rather than learning what works and what doesn't

P.S. Chances are if it tried to swap ends on the way IN to the old hairpin, the correct answer was to get OFF the brakes.. but you'll never know

[rallycross]

The correct answer for an E46 323 is switch it off - it's only a very basic system and will not help you on track and will in fact cut the power when you don't want it to.

In general the answer is probably it depends on the car and the driver and what you are trying to get from your day on the track.

[xjay1337]

upsidedownmark said:

There are many good reasons to. Car control is not rocket science, and there are few better places to learn it than on a track. If you're good, you preempt the problem, and don't put that wheel there, or anticipate the correction that's going to happen. Not quite the wild west you'd like to think it is.

Aside from the more crude implementations impeding your progress, having it on masks a lot of the driving errors that you would otherwise learn before they become critical; eventually even the ESP will run out of ideas and authority, by which time you're a whole load further into the problem than you would have been without it. You finish up with people running around mashing the pedals like loons while all the electrons sort it out, rather than learning what works and what doesn't

P.S. Chances are if it tried to swap ends on the way IN to the old hairpin, the correct answer was to get OFF the brakes.. but you'll never know

I just do not think that turning off ESP on your ROAD CAR which you intend on (hopefully) driving home is the smartest thing to do. I was running Direzza 03g tyres but at no point did my ESP interfere with me driving. It never cut in on power, didn't cut in mid corner, aside from the one hairy moment that I mentioned.

Likewise things may happen on a track you are uncertain of (I have not done Donnington before) and for me in my particular car I found it of no benefit to disable ESP given that it wasn't cutting in and making my drive less enjoyable.

If I had a stripped out car that I put on the back of a low-loader to get there, then absolutely, I would be running round without TCS/ESP or any other electronical systems.

I have absolutely no ego on track and as such I find unless the ESP systems intrude then there is no point turning them off.

Last year I did a wet Mallory and I did have the ESP off there. I was comfortable with the track, I know it well, the circuit was grippy, but the ESP was cutting in coming out of the hairpin and also into the Devils elbow which was slowing me down onto the straight but also reducing my driving pleasure. :-)
As it was wet I wasn't going balls out so disabled the ESP. Unlike donnington where I was pushing quite hard, with new (to me) sticky tyres I would rather keep the safety net there and I am not at all ashamed to admit that.

Edited by xjay1337 on Tuesday 12th July 14:40

[upsidedownmark]

Have no issue with you wanting to keep it on - it's a perfectly valid point of view, but rather different to state it is stupid to turn it off.

I haven't tracked a car I didn't have to drive home. ESP has little to do with whether you bend it or not. It might save a spin, but they're usually harmless, and it might make a difference which way you're pointing when the loud bang happens, but it can't alter physics There are places you might decide to push, and places you don't. Coming onto the pit straight at donington for me is a no - a bit of a slip and you've a good chance of clonking a wall somewhere. Conversely the at the old hairpin you need to be trying very hard to find something solid to hit.

You might be surprised what it *is* doing. A long while back I went from my car at the time and into a friends of the same type, but a little newer. Mine didn't have ESP, his did, and it was on. Coming out of the strange hairpin onto the back straight at bedford (west circuit part of the GT), I was being hamfisted, and mine would understeer as I went on throttle.. There's a fair bank out that way, so I'd get out of the throttle again and tackle it differenty. After about 20 different attempts I worked out a line and timing to get it fired out effectively. It took a while.
Then get in (the passenger seat of his). Same car, same corner, he gets on the power hard from a tighter than ideal entry.. I brace(!) he turns the wheel more, the car just goes were he steers it. There weren't any flashing lights, no banging, stuttering or anything, but after a few laps it becomes obvious that the *car* just doesn't pick up the throttle fully until he's winding the lock off, and I can feel the rear brake nibbling at it to make it turn. In truth it was deeply impressive, but...

Fact he was a lot slower down the straight doesn't really matter, to my mind the fact that he (probably still) has no idea what a horlicks he was making of it kinda goes against the point of track driving. The fact that you've gone to the trouble of putting sticky tyres on it suggests you care about going fast - if you do, you probably ought to care about driving the car well enough to let it go fast.. ESP does not preclude that, but it makes it rather harder to figure it out.

Safest approach is to build slowly and understand what the car is doing, and keep it smooth.

[xjay1337]

My car has XDS anyway so even with the ESP disabled, the car is braking the inside wheel to replicate the actions of an LSD. It does help, on the strong setting it was braking too much so I have put it back to the weaker setting. I could feel it nibbling a bit too much - It works fine with stock brakes but I have DB9 fronts with PMu pads and the rears are S3 also with upgraded pads so it's too much . I didn't have my laptop to disable it unfortunately. On the road it's great but I think on the track we can go faster without it.

I do get what you are saying, the electronics may be masking points of the cars behaviour, eg getting on power too early or what not. I am pretty handy behind the wheel, so I'm told , I take pleasure in trying to understand the actions of the car, the feelings and also the physics behind it which is key to understanding how to get the car to do what you want, shifting the weight of the car, trailing throttle and what not - I just felt that on the track in those conditions I didn't need to take off the ESP, on my FWD shopping cart

Also, considering the amount of absolute bell ends on the day (there were 2 red flags within the first 15 minutes of the session) I just thought not to throw my ego to the breeze haha.

[CABC]

Upsidedown tells the truth.
ESC should be off on track in nearly all circumstances. It covers up so much. You can see it (and smell it) all over the place on track days. Drive with it off and build up speed rather than charging round out of control with it on.

[sprogthedog]

So I've done the day at Rockingham.

After watching the guy stick his Porsche in the wall very early on in the day, I decided to keep the traction control on for s few sessions until I knew the track and the car better. I also wanted to play about with tyre pressures.

I didn't really feel it cutting in, but it did a couple times coming out of the hair pin after the banked section, when I was trying to get on the power too early.
Other than that, it didn't cut in.

Once I had my pressures sorted and was happy, I turned it off and didn't notice any real difference. But I wasn't pushing too hard, maybe 7/10ths.

Contrary to what's been said above, I think when it was on and kicked in it showed me what I was doing wrong and not letting me have a spin.
I learned to alter my driving to stop that happening, so when I did turn it off I was already aware of what I should and shouldn't be doing.

Then it rained, and that became a whole different ball game.
I put in some very happy clear laps, but slowed right down. There was only me, an MX5 and my mate in his Imprezza on track.
I'd turned the traction control back on, but again, it didn't have much to do because I was taking it easy.
I did have one moment on the long left hander, but that was my fault.