Novice Radical
Discussion
Donington Park, Sunday 28th November, last & driest session of the day. Now amassed 5 sessions of track day experience & confidence, Just gone under Starkey’s Bridge, changed up to 4th which is about 80 mph & up the inside into Schwantz comes this Radical SR3 I’d guess doing about 110 or 120.
Now, I was pleased to see a couple of Radicals at Donington having read a lot about them but fairs fair this is the bloody NOVICE group.
Anyway this guy was sponsored by Dominoes so at least when he’s delivering, your pizza should be hot.
Nevertheless, even with the morning rain, what an absolutely ‘kin ace day, hopefully the first of many for me & my still shiny Type R.
Now, I was pleased to see a couple of Radicals at Donington having read a lot about them but fairs fair this is the bloody NOVICE group.
Anyway this guy was sponsored by Dominoes so at least when he’s delivering, your pizza should be hot.
Nevertheless, even with the morning rain, what an absolutely ‘kin ace day, hopefully the first of many for me & my still shiny Type R.
stuartcmorrison said:
Nevertheless, even with the morning rain, what an absolutely ‘kin ace day, hopefully the first of many for me & my still shiny Type R.
No Offs?
Pretty good for the resurfaced Donington on a wet day. Did the Craner Curves ever dry out enough to make them flat out?
The Schwantz curve section is a bit of a grey area in some ways. The trouble is that the entire section from Redgate to Coppice has little by way of a reasonable straight, especially if the slower vehicle is still trying enough to need all the road at the Old Hairpin.
For the morning sessions “wet” is almost an understatement. There were plenty of offs, most just spinning onto the grass & rejoining with no harm to anyone else.
The track improved to “damp” in the afternoon but there was no chance of me going flat out through Craner cos I couldn’t even work out the correct line, my first track day & all those other excuses.
The one thing I didn’t want was rain but I have to admit to really enjoying it after the first session nerves had worn off. The corner I really didn’t like was Coppice, I knew beforehand that the turn in was blind & in the wet I had no feedback at all. What I didn’t realise was that as the track dried I’d take it much faster so was always in that no-feedback zone. By session 5 Coppice was my absolute favourite bend & the buzz it gave when you got it right (ok…righter) was amazing and resulted in loads more speed to scrub off before Goddards.
There’s no consolation to be gained from the Silverstone incident with the Dominoes Radical, on the contrary, I like most don’t want to see anyone suffer physical or financial damage. On Sunday I saw him coming from the Old Hairpin & pretty much knew what to expect, anyway life’s to short to be complaining & I’d still got ¾ of a session to enjoy.
The track improved to “damp” in the afternoon but there was no chance of me going flat out through Craner cos I couldn’t even work out the correct line, my first track day & all those other excuses.
The one thing I didn’t want was rain but I have to admit to really enjoying it after the first session nerves had worn off. The corner I really didn’t like was Coppice, I knew beforehand that the turn in was blind & in the wet I had no feedback at all. What I didn’t realise was that as the track dried I’d take it much faster so was always in that no-feedback zone. By session 5 Coppice was my absolute favourite bend & the buzz it gave when you got it right (ok…righter) was amazing and resulted in loads more speed to scrub off before Goddards.
There’s no consolation to be gained from the Silverstone incident with the Dominoes Radical, on the contrary, I like most don’t want to see anyone suffer physical or financial damage. On Sunday I saw him coming from the Old Hairpin & pretty much knew what to expect, anyway life’s to short to be complaining & I’d still got ¾ of a session to enjoy.
stuartcmorrison said:
The corner I really didn’t like was Coppice, I knew beforehand that the turn in was blind & in the wet I had no feedback at all.
Hmm. Spun off there (and back on) on my first trackday. Lap 4, the first 2 of which had been behind the pace car.
My plan had been at be at the back of the Q but, dawdle as I might when they called the session, about 12 cars behind me. Not sure how they all stopped, but they did. Warmed their brakes for them suppose.
Engine was still running and I was pointing the right way so I carried on. Strangely the cars behind were hanging well back ... !
I felt sorry for them so decided to pit just to check for anything untoward and see if I could work out some better tyre pressures.
Second day out I spun off on Craner Curves on a drying track (but very wet grass). Not sure why, may have put a back wheel on a damp patch. Craner didn't dry out all day even though the morning was damp rather than really wet. Handling was odd that day.
Across the infield a bit and then backwards across the track and onto the grass the other side just at the Old Hairpin braking point. Short of the kitty litter though, so restarted and continued. The marshall at Old Hairpin enjoyed it and one or two people who saw it on the monitor in race control.
>> Edited by LongQ on Wednesday 1st December 00:55
LongQ said:
I spun off on Craner Curves on a drying track
It only occurred to me on Sunday that on a drying track i.e. damp with a clearly visible dry line, you're going a lot faster & the amount of usable tarmac is reduced to 8 feet wide & demands more concentration that the fully wet track that you know is slippy all over.
Talking of which the biggest surprise was the amount of concentration required to stay on pace, my respect for professional racing drivers who bang out lap after lap within a few hundredths of each other has grown immeasurably
stuartcmorrison said:
I spun off on Craner Curves on a drying track
It only occurred to me on Sunday that on a drying track i.e. damp with a clearly visible dry line, you're going a lot faster & the amount of usable tarmac is reduced to 8 feet wide & demands more concentration that the fully wet track that you know is slippy all over.
Absolutely. Same on the roads of course, in certain conditions. Plus you get plenty of surface changes to liven things up should you inadvertently get close to the prevailing limits.
The odd thing was that in the Craner incident I was not really going that quick - being aware of the still drying nature of things and I don't reckon I was so far right that the damp section should have come into play. I think some other factor I had not considered came into play, provided a bit of oversteer and that was just enough to allow the o/s rear to hit the still rather damp parts. At that point one is a bit of a passenger.
The rest of the day was OK and the track stayed much the same. But the handling was, shall we say, erratic by comparison with the first visit in the dry on a very hot day. Having one brand new and one 130k mile used shocker on the rear may not have helped! And I was still experimenting with tyre pressures.
LongQ said:12 cars behind you!? Err, look in your mirrors occasionally?
Hmm. Spun off there (and back on) on my first trackday. Lap 4, the first 2 of which had been behind the pace car.
My plan had been at be at the back of the Q but, dawdle as I might when they called the session, about 12 cars behind me. Not sure how they all stopped, but they did. Warmed their brakes for them suppose.
As for tyre pressures... I suggest nothing is going to help if you have a 130,000 mile tyre mixed with a new one.
dannylt said:
As for tyre pressures... I suggest nothing is going to help if you have a 130,000 mile tyre mixed with a new one.
I think he was saying 130K used shocker not tyre. 130K on a tyre... I wish.
But you are always advised to change both shockers at the same time. There must have been a good reason for running a trackday with old and new shockers on the same axle. I can't think of one though.
Just because he was in a radical doesn't automatically mean to say he wasn't actually entitled to be in the novices section. He could have been an inexperienced driver in a friend's car.
The general guide is that if experienced drivers do for any reason go out in a novices section, they should respect the fact that the novices are entitled to keep their line & that novices don't have to dive out the way to let a faster car through. The faster car should wait to get past in a way which doesn't intimidate the slower car in any way or cause the slower car to take a line he/she wouldn't otherwise take.
Overtaking should only be by consent through the corners anyway, so if the Radical came up the inside as you were going through Schwanze & you didn't know about it, that sounds irresponsible & the guy ought to be told.
Having said that, it's perfectly possible for a Radical to get by a slower car which is staying on the correct line, either between Old Hairpin & Schwanze or between Schwanze & McCleans, without intimidating the slower car or causing them to deviate from the line. As with skiing, the person doing the overtaking is responsible for the move, not the person being overtaken.
I say again, slower drivers in a novices section are entitled to keep the line & shouldn't feel they have to dive out the way if the see a faster car behind. However, there's nothing to stop a slower car indicating to let the faster car by, who would then, by definition, have to go off line. Even in a novices section, you will get faster novices than others, faster cars than others etc & so long as everyone respects the rules & each other, everything should work fine.
The reverse is true of course, if somehow novices find themselves out in a session where faster cars are dominating (& yes, it does happen), then they should respect the faster cars' position & ensure that they are not holding anyone up.
If a car is suddenly behind you that wasn't there before, he's going faster than you - therefore indicate & let him by & then get on with your lap.
If people are inconsiderate or selfish, have a quiet word with them in the paddock afterwards & point out their ways. It may simply just be that no-one has ever advised them of the etiquette of track days, so give them a chance. As with many things in life, I've found a discrete, polite word at the right time works wonders. No-one wants to be embarrassed in front of "their mates" & if someone goes up to another in the paddock in an aggressive or abusive way, then maybe progress isn't going to be made.
However, if that doesn't work, then report your concerns to the organiser who should take action as necessary. Remember the entire track is on monitor in the control room & if there's a questionmark over bad driving, it's not difficult to check the reality.
The general guide is that if experienced drivers do for any reason go out in a novices section, they should respect the fact that the novices are entitled to keep their line & that novices don't have to dive out the way to let a faster car through. The faster car should wait to get past in a way which doesn't intimidate the slower car in any way or cause the slower car to take a line he/she wouldn't otherwise take.
Overtaking should only be by consent through the corners anyway, so if the Radical came up the inside as you were going through Schwanze & you didn't know about it, that sounds irresponsible & the guy ought to be told.
Having said that, it's perfectly possible for a Radical to get by a slower car which is staying on the correct line, either between Old Hairpin & Schwanze or between Schwanze & McCleans, without intimidating the slower car or causing them to deviate from the line. As with skiing, the person doing the overtaking is responsible for the move, not the person being overtaken.
I say again, slower drivers in a novices section are entitled to keep the line & shouldn't feel they have to dive out the way if the see a faster car behind. However, there's nothing to stop a slower car indicating to let the faster car by, who would then, by definition, have to go off line. Even in a novices section, you will get faster novices than others, faster cars than others etc & so long as everyone respects the rules & each other, everything should work fine.
The reverse is true of course, if somehow novices find themselves out in a session where faster cars are dominating (& yes, it does happen), then they should respect the faster cars' position & ensure that they are not holding anyone up.
If a car is suddenly behind you that wasn't there before, he's going faster than you - therefore indicate & let him by & then get on with your lap.
If people are inconsiderate or selfish, have a quiet word with them in the paddock afterwards & point out their ways. It may simply just be that no-one has ever advised them of the etiquette of track days, so give them a chance. As with many things in life, I've found a discrete, polite word at the right time works wonders. No-one wants to be embarrassed in front of "their mates" & if someone goes up to another in the paddock in an aggressive or abusive way, then maybe progress isn't going to be made.
However, if that doesn't work, then report your concerns to the organiser who should take action as necessary. Remember the entire track is on monitor in the control room & if there's a questionmark over bad driving, it's not difficult to check the reality.
55jnj said:I think the organisers prefer you talk to them first, rather than the person - it can be difficult to get your point across without it getting heated. Generally you'll find that several people have already complained.
However, if that doesn't work, then report your concerns to the organiser who should take action as necessary. Remember the entire track is on monitor in the control room & if there's a questionmark over bad driving, it's not difficult to check the reality.
Driving the SR3 I take special care not to intimidate other drivers at all, however they don't seem to be getting a great reputation it has to be said.
dannylt said:
12 cars behind you!? Err, look in your mirrors occasionally?
As for tyre pressures... I suggest nothing is going to help if you have a 130,000 mile tyre mixed with a new one.
Indeed, I did look in the mirrors and the plan was to move well out of the way and let them all pass on the straight that followed.
Remember this was lap 4. First 2 behind the pace car. One lap with everyone still warming themselves to the task and the guy in the Nova behind me and the 2 cars that followed him were not that fast. And I was not dropping back very much from the cars in front. So the whole stream was till settling in during the first unfettered lap and a half. Pity the slower cars were all at the front and the faster boys had all joined at the back. Not my choice, as I explained in the previous post.
Maybe, just maybe, if I had not been concerned about letting the people behind get past and not slowing them down too much and spoiling their fun, the spin might not have happened.
But then I see from your second comment that you were clearly speed reading the post and missed some important words, so I hope the explanation above is easier to read.
canam-phil said:
I think he was saying 130K used shocker not tyre. 130K on a tyre... I wish.
But you are always advised to change both shockers at the same time. There must have been a good reason for running a trackday with old and new shockers on the same axle. I can't think of one though.
Absolutely right.
The reason for the single shocker change only was that the shocks for that vehicle were only available from the dealer and they only had one. No time to order and fit another before the day.
Plus the shocks were electronically adjusted self levellers so, in theory, they could be fitted singly, which is, I assume, why the dealer only had one in stock.
The further factor was that the car was up for imminent replacement due to other reasons and I didn't feel the need to shell out and extra 140 quid for something I was about to dispose of and was worth less than a grand anyway.
In fact it was difficult to tell the difference unless you got very close to the limits of what it could achieve (in my hands at least) and I suspect that track temp and tyre pressures, plus my piloting, had more input than the shockers, though the possible imbalance may not have helped. At least the new one was on the most loaded side - n/s rear.
I had planned one more session in the car before it went in order to prove or disprove the theories to some extent - but the scheduled days I could make were all cancelled, due to lack of interest apparently, and the other factors forced my hand into making a change.
The day I find a tyre capable of 130k miles I will let all the drift club people know. Should be a perfect choice for reduced grip and cost savings!
AndrewD said:
There was a Dominos liveried SR3 at Spa earlier in the year..... he couldn't keep up with the other SR3s
So, he passed me like I was stood still then I find out he's slower than all the other SR3's.... & I thought I was living on the edge! Cheers AndrewD, I'll get me coat.
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