Discussion
Hans ...... do you double de-clutch whilst driving at the moment?
If not, then you should preferably learn how to do this firstly and become proficient to the extent it becomes a habit. THEN you can move on to braking at the same time as double de-clutching. It makes for a much smoother gear change whilst still achieving an aim of getting the engine to help with the braking for corners etc and being in the correct gear for accelerating through, or out of, that corner.
Do a search of Google for Heel and Toeing - I would guess there is loads of info on the net.
If not, then you should preferably learn how to do this firstly and become proficient to the extent it becomes a habit. THEN you can move on to braking at the same time as double de-clutching. It makes for a much smoother gear change whilst still achieving an aim of getting the engine to help with the braking for corners etc and being in the correct gear for accelerating through, or out of, that corner.
Do a search of Google for Heel and Toeing - I would guess there is loads of info on the net.
Heal and Toe..... nice if you can do it well... but not really that big a deal and not such a big deal on modern cars.
Its far more likely your going to increase your braking distance as a result due to reducing pressure on the brake peddle.
The good news is you can practice to your hearts content on public roads. all you need is a sports car and some good driving shoes....
The daddy of foot control..... Left foot braking
Its far more likely your going to increase your braking distance as a result due to reducing pressure on the brake peddle.
The good news is you can practice to your hearts content on public roads. all you need is a sports car and some good driving shoes....
The daddy of foot control..... Left foot braking
I have never seen a course that particularly specialises in teaching Heel and Toe...
But how you get good at it is doing it...practice everyday in your road driving.
As to "double-de-clutch" (which can be done with heel and toe as well) it really shouldn't be necessary with a modern gearbox - and will slow down the change unnecessarily. (McNab will disagree...but that's OK!)
And you *can* heel and toe whilst maintaining full downward pressure on the brake pedal - you just need to practice.
If you search the archives on here you will find numerous threads with info on how to do it best.
But how you get good at it is doing it...practice everyday in your road driving.
As to "double-de-clutch" (which can be done with heel and toe as well) it really shouldn't be necessary with a modern gearbox - and will slow down the change unnecessarily. (McNab will disagree...but that's OK!)
And you *can* heel and toe whilst maintaining full downward pressure on the brake pedal - you just need to practice.
If you search the archives on here you will find numerous threads with info on how to do it best.
It's becoming a very popular technique to teach in the drifting world which is really all about car control. As suggested learn double de clutch first, practice this then prcatice the h&t techniques then start putting them all together.
A well piloted car on a track is noticeably smoother from the passenger seat & its definately something worth learning.
I must admit I've never seen any technique info on it, just word of mouth & direct instruction.
A well piloted car on a track is noticeably smoother from the passenger seat & its definately something worth learning.
I must admit I've never seen any technique info on it, just word of mouth & direct instruction.
cptsideways said:
As suggested learn double de clutch first, practice this then prcatice the h&t techniques then start putting them all together.
Double declutching keeps cropping up when people are talking about heal and toe, but there's really no point doing it unless you need to (and with a modern box you only need to if your synchros are knackered). Heal and toe on the other hand is a very useful technique to match revs on down shifts, and matching revs is an essential skill if you drive a rear wheel drive car near the limit.
www.1stlotus.com can help you. Andrew Walsh will tailor any instruction to what you want. Sign up for his 2/4 person Airfield day at North Weald and he'll sort you out
Not airfield as such, but a day spent on a wide expanse of tarmac with different exercises and finishes with coned "circuit" No helmet required, nothing to hit and hence no insurance needed as its a driver training day
Not airfield as such, but a day spent on a wide expanse of tarmac with different exercises and finishes with coned "circuit" No helmet required, nothing to hit and hence no insurance needed as its a driver training day
You don't need a course to learn Heel & Toe. The only place you can practice it is on the road with no traffic behind you because you don't need speed to use it.
There are only 3 things that you need to remember when Heel & toeing.
1. Never compromise your braking because of H&T
2. The rev should always happen just before you engage the lower gear not after (as I so often see).
3. NEVER, EVER, RUSH IT
The technique comes from trial and error (all cars have different pedal distances and travel lengths).
If you want a break down of exactly how to do it and why feel free to mail me.
There are only 3 things that you need to remember when Heel & toeing.
1. Never compromise your braking because of H&T
2. The rev should always happen just before you engage the lower gear not after (as I so often see).
3. NEVER, EVER, RUSH IT
The technique comes from trial and error (all cars have different pedal distances and travel lengths).
If you want a break down of exactly how to do it and why feel free to mail me.
GreenV8S said:
As suggested learn double de clutch first, practice this then prcatice the h&t techniques then start putting them all together.
Double declutching keeps cropping up when people are talking about heal and toe, but there's really no point doing it unless you need to (and with a modern box you only need to if your synchros are knackered). Heal and toe on the other hand is a very useful technique to match revs on down shifts, and matching revs is an essential skill if you drive a rear wheel drive car near the limit.
Peter,
I'm very interested in what you say - especially having just witnessed what a good driver you are.
My initial post suggested learning how to double de-clutch initially. Correct me if I'm wrong (in previous cars I have been heel & toeing for some 30 years) but double de-clutching MATCHES the engine revs to the gear. Now we add the dimension of braking at the same time which we call heel & toeing. As you quite correctly state - it's very important for rear wheel drive cars but provides a far smoother drive in any manual car. Having said that - believe it or not, I also use a form of double de-clutching when I use the semi manual side of my Tiptronic gearbox on the Galant (even though I don't have a clutch - sound stupid doesn't it - I'll explain when we next meet).
It seems to me that trying to learn how to heel & toe would be simpler if one first learned how to double de-clutch proficiently - subsequently adding the dimension of braking at the same time would be much easier.
Or are we talking at cross purposes? Lol !
Richard
dubaiguy said:
Or are we talking at cross purposes? Lol !
Probably! To me, double declutching means declutching twice i.e. clutch down, into neutral, clutch up, blip throttle, clutch down, into new gear, clutch up.
The point of bringing the clutch up while you're in neutral during a double-declutch change is to spin up the gearbox internals so the new gear engages easily. If you have synchromesh, the synchro hubs do this anyway.
IMO the main aim is to match the engine revs during a down-shift, by blipping the throttle i.e. clutch down, blip throttle while selecting new gear, clutch up. This means the engine is at the right revs for the new gear so you are not dragging the engine up to speed on the clutch, which would cause lots of engine braking (a big
with rwd). Heel and toe is essentially the same except that you are braking at the same time. This means you are using the clutch, bake and throttle at the same time which is tricky with two feet, so the right foot has to work the brake and throttle at the same time. Traditionally you would brake with the ball of your foot and twist your foot over so you can press the throttle with your heel, hence the name. For some reason in the TVR seating position my knees and ankles don't flex far enough to do that comfortably so I roll my foot off the side of the brake and use the side of my foot to press the throttle, not literally heel-n-toe but the intent is the same.
Yes, we're in total agreement Peter!
I think quite a few drivers use a similar movement to yours - it all depends on the particular car. I had to get special pedals in one car so that I could actually reach each pedal at the same time as they were so far apart. Nowdays, of course, you can buy the extensions off the shelf (in any colour you wish including pink for some reason!)
Dick
I think quite a few drivers use a similar movement to yours - it all depends on the particular car. I had to get special pedals in one car so that I could actually reach each pedal at the same time as they were so far apart. Nowdays, of course, you can buy the extensions off the shelf (in any colour you wish including pink for some reason!)
Dick
Pedal positioning is critical for this ..... I've just changed my Griff's pedal to the Leven fully adjustable set so that I can continue to improve the feel in the Griff.
If the accelrator is placed to high then you can find yoursel fputting far too many revs through the car when changing down and this can be a complete nightmare.
This is something you can reasonably safely practice on the road. Perhaps not in rush hour traffic, but there are enough opportinuties to get the feel for this without being under track conditions. BUT REMEMBER to give yourself twice the space you would normally and make sure you are the only one around. As this can go wrong.
I employ the exact same method a Pete and find that it is sometimes very difficult to get a completely scientific amount of revs dialed in, as often it is a push with the right foot at best and rather then compromise the style, I change the pedal position to accomodate.
Double de clutching is a waste of time on track and you may as well just slow down .... imho.
In my limited experience heel & toeing has saved engine wear, time and big slides in to corners for me on track. Previously I would lock the rear wheels on the way in and spend the entry phase just trying to recover ....
Practise makes perfect though !
If the accelrator is placed to high then you can find yoursel fputting far too many revs through the car when changing down and this can be a complete nightmare.
This is something you can reasonably safely practice on the road. Perhaps not in rush hour traffic, but there are enough opportinuties to get the feel for this without being under track conditions. BUT REMEMBER to give yourself twice the space you would normally and make sure you are the only one around. As this can go wrong.
I employ the exact same method a Pete and find that it is sometimes very difficult to get a completely scientific amount of revs dialed in, as often it is a push with the right foot at best and rather then compromise the style, I change the pedal position to accomodate.
Double de clutching is a waste of time on track and you may as well just slow down .... imho.
In my limited experience heel & toeing has saved engine wear, time and big slides in to corners for me on track. Previously I would lock the rear wheels on the way in and spend the entry phase just trying to recover ....
Practise makes perfect though !
I totally agree with the comments about double declutching ... not necessary and not linked to heel n toe, only required if your synchros are dodgy. But, can anyone help me ... I have been H&T'n for years and in my Elise I use my toe on the brake and blip the throttle with my heel ... have I been absolutely doing it wrong all these years or is this just a personal preference????
>> Edited by stevie111s on Monday 27th September 08:56
>> Edited by stevie111s on Monday 27th September 08:56
GreenV8S said:
...so I roll my foot off the side of the brake and use the side of my foot to press the throttle, not literally heel-n-toe but the intent is the same.
That's exactly how I do it in my Porsche. The pedal arrangement is set up for doing it exactly that way. I also found that in an Elise (which I drove recently) the same style worked great.
i.e. Press brake pedal with "toe" (left hand side of right foot). Clutch in. Roll right foot around the right hand edge of the brake pedal so that the right hand side of the right foot depresses the accelerator. Match revs. Let clutch up. Finally release brake pedal smoothly and turn in to corner...
I'm a rank amateur at track driving but I reckon I have a half reasonable H&T technique. At least - most instructors say so - with the odd one saying "a little too much gas there - did you feel the car pull forward slightly?" Me: "Yes. I'll get it right on the next corner..."
You know when you are doing it right because the gearchange is virtually undetectable...
My top tip for initially getting to grips with H&T is to do it whilst stationary.
Have the engine running, with the car in neutral, and your foot (hard) on the brake. Practice blipping the throttle until you can hit whatever target revs you choose (with your foot still hard on the brake). Then add in the left foot control of the clutch in time.
Once you're happy, try it on the move but only on a quiet, clear road with plenty of space!
Have the engine running, with the car in neutral, and your foot (hard) on the brake. Practice blipping the throttle until you can hit whatever target revs you choose (with your foot still hard on the brake). Then add in the left foot control of the clutch in time.
Once you're happy, try it on the move but only on a quiet, clear road with plenty of space!
jeremyc said:Hard on the brake is important. The whole point is to brake as quickly as possible whilst retaining control of the car - therefore, find a position where you can stand on the middle pedal.
Have the engine running, with the car in neutral, and your foot (hard) on the brake.
If you are prepared to compromise the braking, you may as well just drag the clutch up slowly and match the revs that way, whilst concentrating on the job in hand (operating the middle pedal).
My toe isn't strong enough to max out the braking, hence using the ball of my foot - as many others have said.
Wow, that got a few responses. This all stared after a blast in a mini at Rockingham on Saturday (exellent fun, interesting infield) exposed a defficiency. I ll try the lotus course at North weald. I do double declutch, not allways on up changes in heavy traffic. HPC taught me the technique as it's part of there program. Heel and toes touchy subject for road based training. And I ve never felt it neccesary on Southern roads. Only tracks.
I feel relying on syncro mesh a no no. You can't syncronise road speeda and revs, surely straining a 'road' cars gearbox. This must be inconsistent, leading to (rear) wheel lock ups, corner entry problems. I'd like to master this technique as on a previous love, motor bikes, braking down changes relatively easy.
Side of foot onto throttle is the way to go. I am 6ft 3ins tall and have allways found leg position difficult. Thanks for the responses.
I feel relying on syncro mesh a no no. You can't syncronise road speeda and revs, surely straining a 'road' cars gearbox. This must be inconsistent, leading to (rear) wheel lock ups, corner entry problems. I'd like to master this technique as on a previous love, motor bikes, braking down changes relatively easy.
Side of foot onto throttle is the way to go. I am 6ft 3ins tall and have allways found leg position difficult. Thanks for the responses.
hans solo said:
I feel relying on syncro mesh a no no. You can't syncronise road speeda and revs, surely straining a 'road' cars gearbox. This must be inconsistent, leading to (rear) wheel lock ups, corner entry problems.
The job of the synchromesh is to match the speed of the gearbox internals to the road speed. It is designed to do this, using it in this way is not 'straining' the gearbox as such. What this doesn't do is match the engine revs to the road speed in the new gear, which you the driver should do using the throttle. You don't *have* to do this while you're braking, but by using the heel and toe technique it is possible to.
Double declutching is completely different and is unecessary unless your synchromesh doesnt work or you wish to avoid using it. I can't see why HPC would advocate NOT using the synchromesh, since using synchromesh makes gear changes faster and easier and requires less mental and physical effort from the driver at a critical time, which is something I would expect HPC to be in favour of.
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