Trackday insurance- how stupid!
Discussion
I just have to laugh at it all really-
I get insurance sorted with a company that allows track mods (inc cage if I desire- which is a tricky one with many co's) and includes track insurance, price is good, so sort it last week- making sure I went through all the details carefully with the phone chimp & then wait for the documents to arrive.
Ok so its a cheap track slag so fully comp is not needed.
What I want however & the reason Ive bothered to try & sort insurance that allows track use rather than just not bother, is to know if I have a my fault accident the other parties car & any injuries I do to them or a passenger I may have is covered by insurance- just as it would be on the road.
So its lands on the mat & I flick through the paperwork today and oh how I laughed, perhaps the wrong spelling of my name should have given me a clue to what would follow!
To quote- Track days, what is NOT covered-
- Liability to others if I kill or injure them(inc damage to their property)
- Fire & theft
- Windscreen cover
- Personal injury
!! so not a lot covered then!
But now we reach the best bit- "the insured vehicle must be the only vehicle on the track"! ha ha WHAT!!
Oh and here come the cherry on top- "unless the driver is accompanied by a professional instructor"!!
oh yes what with the few £k of hiring a track for my exclusive use I normally have enough spare ££ to hire sodding Shumacher for the day!
So all in all well worth having their optional track day cover!
Be nice if they answered the phone so I could discuss this with them of course!
I get insurance sorted with a company that allows track mods (inc cage if I desire- which is a tricky one with many co's) and includes track insurance, price is good, so sort it last week- making sure I went through all the details carefully with the phone chimp & then wait for the documents to arrive.
Ok so its a cheap track slag so fully comp is not needed.
What I want however & the reason Ive bothered to try & sort insurance that allows track use rather than just not bother, is to know if I have a my fault accident the other parties car & any injuries I do to them or a passenger I may have is covered by insurance- just as it would be on the road.
So its lands on the mat & I flick through the paperwork today and oh how I laughed, perhaps the wrong spelling of my name should have given me a clue to what would follow!
To quote- Track days, what is NOT covered-
- Liability to others if I kill or injure them(inc damage to their property)
- Fire & theft
- Windscreen cover
- Personal injury
!! so not a lot covered then!
But now we reach the best bit- "the insured vehicle must be the only vehicle on the track"! ha ha WHAT!!
Oh and here come the cherry on top- "unless the driver is accompanied by a professional instructor"!!
oh yes what with the few £k of hiring a track for my exclusive use I normally have enough spare ££ to hire sodding Shumacher for the day!
So all in all well worth having their optional track day cover!
Be nice if they answered the phone so I could discuss this with them of course!
Does sound like they have totally messed up and your application was completed by a temp with all the listening skills of a politician, however to my knowledge, no track policy covers damage to other cars or liability in accidents.
All track insurance covers is if you stuff your motor into a wall and do more than the excesses in damage. If someone hits you, you can claim but only off your insurance, if you hit someone else then frankly its tough luck on both counts. Your both forking out.
If your doing track days where contact is likely then can I suggest you change track day organiser.
All track insurance covers is if you stuff your motor into a wall and do more than the excesses in damage. If someone hits you, you can claim but only off your insurance, if you hit someone else then frankly its tough luck on both counts. Your both forking out.
If your doing track days where contact is likely then can I suggest you change track day organiser.
unbelieveable I do agree with you Simon, but I don't think it's entirely the trackday organisers fault unless maybe they have put too many cars out, in most cases it's the drivers fault but thats why its called an 'accident', surely no one is going to drive their car into the tyre wall or into someone else deliberately............
The fact is, contact with another car is exceptionally unlikely (unless your driving like an idiot), your more likely to hit the wall, barrier etc
Out of interest iguana, who do you do track days with?
Simon- yeah fair enough thats always been my understanding & why most people dont bother with specific track insurance, but thats not what I was sold- "fully insured on trackdays just like on road" was the term, thing is tho if you are TP&T insurance and thus stuffing it unto a wall is not covered, then if it doesnt cover any injury or damage to anothers property or even injury to myself whats the point in having any kind of track insurance coz really other than allowing track mods there is no track insurance element?
Cayenne- no preference really (although if im honest cost is a big factor) other than avoiding like the plague those 'action' day type absolute carnage events like at Castle Coombe where you can just pay a few ££ & have ya 20 mins on track etc.
Think in the past ive used most of the main contenders, (tho never seem to have used RMA or Goldtrack, RMA don't think I'll ever do due to cost) but I've not done much track frollics for a few yrs, Easytrack & BAT seem well regarded & ive been to events by both of them in the past, tho not been with either this yr due to dates & circuits not matching requirements. Since car ready late this yr ive done Heritage/Evo(*) & still to come got Fastrak, some club organised sprints, & an independant day by a dealer for their customers.
Saxo- Let me speak to 'em 1st & see what they say about it, may well give greenlight a go if not.
(*) ahem EVO day, hmm well been to Brands GP with 'em twice now, once 2 yrs ago passengered with buddy who after the buzzing of cars in all groups inc Novices by instructors with passengers, swore he would never do another EVO day & hasnt, & 2 weeks ago I drove it & the large amount of Radicals with commited drivers again didnt make it the safest day I've ever been on.... Lots of unhappy drivers in the pits too. Perhaps no wonder (I hear) they have had to cancel a few events through lack of interest?
I mean if ya wanna get buzzed all day by banzi loons in much quicker wagons, the 'ring is only a few hrs away & the track time is cheaper
Dunno if other EVO days are quite as hectic?
Cayenne- no preference really (although if im honest cost is a big factor) other than avoiding like the plague those 'action' day type absolute carnage events like at Castle Coombe where you can just pay a few ££ & have ya 20 mins on track etc.
Think in the past ive used most of the main contenders, (tho never seem to have used RMA or Goldtrack, RMA don't think I'll ever do due to cost) but I've not done much track frollics for a few yrs, Easytrack & BAT seem well regarded & ive been to events by both of them in the past, tho not been with either this yr due to dates & circuits not matching requirements. Since car ready late this yr ive done Heritage/Evo(*) & still to come got Fastrak, some club organised sprints, & an independant day by a dealer for their customers.
Saxo- Let me speak to 'em 1st & see what they say about it, may well give greenlight a go if not.
(*) ahem EVO day, hmm well been to Brands GP with 'em twice now, once 2 yrs ago passengered with buddy who after the buzzing of cars in all groups inc Novices by instructors with passengers, swore he would never do another EVO day & hasnt, & 2 weeks ago I drove it & the large amount of Radicals with commited drivers again didnt make it the safest day I've ever been on.... Lots of unhappy drivers in the pits too. Perhaps no wonder (I hear) they have had to cancel a few events through lack of interest?
I mean if ya wanna get buzzed all day by banzi loons in much quicker wagons, the 'ring is only a few hrs away & the track time is cheaper
Dunno if other EVO days are quite as hectic?
I have never bothered with trackday insurance as the numbers don't add up for me.
It has been time for insurance renewal and the usual farcical dealings with Norwich Union. So if we ignore the use of incomprehensible forgein call centers and the fact that they have lost my thatcham alarm certificate twice and only being allowed 3 modificaions to the car, things got rather silly when it came to mentioning trackday cover. NU stated I would not be covered for trackdays, that they wouldn't cover me for trackdays with an extra premium per day. NU then stated they would not quote me for road use if I was going to do trackdays
, when I replied I wouldn't do any trackdays then, they still refused to quote on the basis that I might do a trackday.
I think it's time to sell my Avivia shares.
>> Edited by tony.t on Saturday 18th September 12:53
It has been time for insurance renewal and the usual farcical dealings with Norwich Union. So if we ignore the use of incomprehensible forgein call centers and the fact that they have lost my thatcham alarm certificate twice and only being allowed 3 modificaions to the car, things got rather silly when it came to mentioning trackday cover. NU stated I would not be covered for trackdays, that they wouldn't cover me for trackdays with an extra premium per day. NU then stated they would not quote me for road use if I was going to do trackdays
, when I replied I wouldn't do any trackdays then, they still refused to quote on the basis that I might do a trackday. I think it's time to sell my Avivia shares.
>> Edited by tony.t on Saturday 18th September 12:53
Tony, when did you speak to NU? I'm with NU Direct (are there 2 arms to NU?), have been for 2 years as they're cheap, and while they wouldn't cover me for trackdays back in April when i renewed, they didn't do anything more about it.
I'd be quite worried if an insurance company refused cover for that - firstly for you doing something which is specifically excluded anyway, so not their problem, and secondly (and far worse) refusing cover for something they feel you "might" do!!! On that basis, every Elise/Caterfield/... owner in the country could be refused insurance by anyone who doesn't do track-day cover!!!
Which I think/hope would be illegal. I'm guessing you just got a stroppy agent at NU - they're not really paid to think, are they?
I'd be quite worried if an insurance company refused cover for that - firstly for you doing something which is specifically excluded anyway, so not their problem, and secondly (and far worse) refusing cover for something they feel you "might" do!!! On that basis, every Elise/Caterfield/... owner in the country could be refused insurance by anyone who doesn't do track-day cover!!!
Which I think/hope would be illegal. I'm guessing you just got a stroppy agent at NU - they're not really paid to think, are they?
Havoc,
I have spoken to NU direct, at length, over the past two weeks. I have been with them for 4 years ( still am with other cars) and have various cars with them.
I agree that their descision to refuse to quote was perverse but they didn't quote me happy.
Part of the problem is that you deal with telephone sales operators who do nothing more than complete the online form for you; Anything out of the ordinary and they're flumoxed. They then refer to a " supervisor" who may or may not be helpful. In the past perseverence has managed to locate someone with half a brain but this time the insurance deadline beat me to it.
I went with Adrian Flux in the end who sorted out similar cover for less money inside 1 hour.
( I'm not interested in trackday cover as before, the numbers don't add up for me)
I have spoken to NU direct, at length, over the past two weeks. I have been with them for 4 years ( still am with other cars) and have various cars with them.
I agree that their descision to refuse to quote was perverse but they didn't quote me happy.
Part of the problem is that you deal with telephone sales operators who do nothing more than complete the online form for you; Anything out of the ordinary and they're flumoxed. They then refer to a " supervisor" who may or may not be helpful. In the past perseverence has managed to locate someone with half a brain but this time the insurance deadline beat me to it.
I went with Adrian Flux in the end who sorted out similar cover for less money inside 1 hour.
( I'm not interested in trackday cover as before, the numbers don't add up for me)
Hi iguana , just a few comments prompted by your posting and the various responses.
I used to be with NU , a 'club' policy via Nowell & Richards , for a Porsche 993 then a 996 that I used on occasional trackday. The cover for trackdays was for car damage with a big excess , about 5k , and they needed advance notification , no extra fee first time circa 1998 , subsequently there was an extra fee for the day which seemed to increase every year until in 2002 was not on offer....probably a sign that NU didn't like this market.
Then Melv told me about 'classic car' policy via Aon with RSA , at time I wanted to insure a Porsche 964RS for mainly track use. Still on that policy, still on notification of day, additional premium for day ( not much) and high excess. I've also fitted a cage !!!
I guess that I spend too much money on trackdays , the cars I use are expensive to run and repair , I dont fret about tyre wear, or the need for extra wheels and tyres,or the replacement of pads AND discs on frequent basis plus frequent mechanical bills, however like you I have a problem with 'expensive' trackdays, and I'd include the PCGB days in that category. Not logical really but suppose you try to save somewhere.
Bottom line, driving circuits is an expensive business and your pockets are never deep enough , and you need a state of mind that accidents probably will happen and insurance probably will not cover - not you nor the other guy. As you barrel into Old Hall / Island /Paddock Hill at 120ish... prior to braking... in the English autumn... you are playing roulette big time and its addictive....
I used to be with NU , a 'club' policy via Nowell & Richards , for a Porsche 993 then a 996 that I used on occasional trackday. The cover for trackdays was for car damage with a big excess , about 5k , and they needed advance notification , no extra fee first time circa 1998 , subsequently there was an extra fee for the day which seemed to increase every year until in 2002 was not on offer....probably a sign that NU didn't like this market.
Then Melv told me about 'classic car' policy via Aon with RSA , at time I wanted to insure a Porsche 964RS for mainly track use. Still on that policy, still on notification of day, additional premium for day ( not much) and high excess. I've also fitted a cage !!!
I guess that I spend too much money on trackdays , the cars I use are expensive to run and repair , I dont fret about tyre wear, or the need for extra wheels and tyres,or the replacement of pads AND discs on frequent basis plus frequent mechanical bills, however like you I have a problem with 'expensive' trackdays, and I'd include the PCGB days in that category. Not logical really but suppose you try to save somewhere.
Bottom line, driving circuits is an expensive business and your pockets are never deep enough , and you need a state of mind that accidents probably will happen and insurance probably will not cover - not you nor the other guy. As you barrel into Old Hall / Island /Paddock Hill at 120ish... prior to braking... in the English autumn... you are playing roulette big time and its addictive....
Tony - cheers for the details. Hope things are better with Anal Flux!!!
I only do a few track-days a year, so I pay for cover on an event basis with Competition Car Insurance (who've now been bought out...forget who by).
They provide any level of cover you want, but all with a 15% excess. For me it works out about £100 for £8k of cover with a £1,200 excess. Not the greatest, but it's big advantage is if I do have to make a claim, it won't affect my NCB!!! (Am paying over £1k p.a. as is with 6yrs NCB, so that's fairly important)
I only do a few track-days a year, so I pay for cover on an event basis with Competition Car Insurance (who've now been bought out...forget who by).
They provide any level of cover you want, but all with a 15% excess. For me it works out about £100 for £8k of cover with a £1,200 excess. Not the greatest, but it's big advantage is if I do have to make a claim, it won't affect my NCB!!! (Am paying over £1k p.a. as is with 6yrs NCB, so that's fairly important)
If you insure with competition car insurance a car, let's say worth £10k, then the premium is going to be £120 or so with £1500 excess.
If you have a big accident do they write the car off, give you the £8.5K and keep the salvage? I presume they do, or do they give you £8.5k and you keep the wreck?
If you have a big accident do they write the car off, give you the £8.5K and keep the salvage? I presume they do, or do they give you £8.5k and you keep the wreck?
This seems like such a grey area, I had a rather interesting experience earlier in the year with the cars then insurers. I rang them to add a modification to the car, the chap on the other end wanted to know why I was considering a roll cage.
I mistakenly mentioned that I attended the odd trackday (when I previously checked policy terms/conditions it simply stated you were'nt covered). The telephonist then points out that if I should partake in any track day my policy is null and void. Great ! I know have a new & more flexible policy.
After doing a little reaserch I have found that covering your car with a seperate track day policy is deemed by certain insurance companies to be illegal. This is because you are not allowed to run two insurance policys on one motor car at the same time.
I had always presumed that this ruleing only applied to conventional road cover. Anyone know what the correct legal position is with regards to this matter ?
I mistakenly mentioned that I attended the odd trackday (when I previously checked policy terms/conditions it simply stated you were'nt covered). The telephonist then points out that if I should partake in any track day my policy is null and void. Great ! I know have a new & more flexible policy.
After doing a little reaserch I have found that covering your car with a seperate track day policy is deemed by certain insurance companies to be illegal. This is because you are not allowed to run two insurance policys on one motor car at the same time.
I had always presumed that this ruleing only applied to conventional road cover. Anyone know what the correct legal position is with regards to this matter ?
interloper said:
After doing a little reaserch I have found that covering your car with a seperate track day policy is deemed by certain insurance companies to be illegal. This is because you are not allowed to run two insurance policys on one motor car at the same time.
I had always presumed that this ruleing only applied to conventional road cover. Anyone know what the correct legal position is with regards to this matter ?
Insurance companies are not allowed to post exclusions on the insurance certificate itself. Now they are legaly obliged to cover you for anywhere ( ie not just roads) where the public has access, which includes carparks et al. I wonder if they are getting cold feet over those who partake in trackdays with cars covered by a road policy because they know damn well that if there was a serious incident then they would be liable to pay out on the road insurance policy regardless of any exclusions contained within the accompanying schedule.
Tony,
Have you got anything concrete to back that up??? If so, it could be VERY useful for those of us paying £100s per year on track-day insurance!
Yours hopefully,
M.
As far as trackdays nullifying the whole policy goes, I can't see how they can??? If it's an activity excluded from the cover, then YOU take the risk, surely???
Have you got anything concrete to back that up??? If so, it could be VERY useful for those of us paying £100s per year on track-day insurance!
Yours hopefully,
M.
As far as trackdays nullifying the whole policy goes, I can't see how they can??? If it's an activity excluded from the cover, then YOU take the risk, surely???
Havoc,
The chances of you being able to claim for damage to your car or someone else car are less than zero because of the exclusion.
I was thinking more of a big personal injury claim. I suspect the road insurance may make the issuer liable if the track is considered a public place ( which is loosely defined as somewhere the public has accessas if it were a road). The insurer may be able to reclaim any money paid out from you through the courts because of the exclusion in the contract but if they have paid out £4 million in personal injury claim and your own personal wealth amounts to a few buttons the insurer is still looking at a big loss.
The chances of you being able to claim for damage to your car or someone else car are less than zero because of the exclusion.
I was thinking more of a big personal injury claim. I suspect the road insurance may make the issuer liable if the track is considered a public place ( which is loosely defined as somewhere the public has accessas if it were a road). The insurer may be able to reclaim any money paid out from you through the courts because of the exclusion in the contract but if they have paid out £4 million in personal injury claim and your own personal wealth amounts to a few buttons the insurer is still looking at a big loss.
Gassing Station | Track Days | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff