Nurburgring 2024
Discussion
I find it utterly baffling how many people are lining up to let a stranger drive their car at 10/10ths (uninsured!). Perhaps this particular incident was a mechanical failure but he's had so many near-misses of his own doing that it was only a matter of time. The sense of entitlement in setting up a GoFundMe... what the actual fk. There's a massive discrepancy between the comments on his social media and those on independent pages - he must be constantly deleting anything negative. I'm going to the Ring at the end of the season but his attitude and the crowd its attracted, is really off-putting.
Best response I’ve seen to all of this:
you all complain drivings too dangerous / too fast in TF but when people build quicker cars and give me the keys I will drive them quickly.
I know I said previously I used to enjoy his vids but that attitude is crap and will get him or someone injured one of these days.
Nurburg local said:
There’s genuinely heartbreaking cases of illness and misfortune on GoFundMe. An influencer crashing someone’s spare track car due to overdriving it, then launching a GoFundMe for €200,000 is a sickening case of entitlement.
If anyone here funds that, you’re funding the problem. If he can’t afford to fix this, then he can’t afford to hit you/your car or some other civilian out there and cover the mechanical/medical damages the next time.
Bottomed out the dampers in the foxhole mistaking it for Bilstein’s marketing teams GT4 (both mechanically/electronically) didn’t gather it up, arrived at the top of the foxhole with road car ABS/ESP pulsing, mistook the hard pedal (abs actively pulsing) for lack of brakes, panicked, sent a civilian into the barrier, putting the car on its roof.
At some point the frequency of his crashes need calling out, let alone the fact they are only getting bigger due to the cars he’s been handed being faster/more powerful than before. He put his passenger in danger pushing that car to beyond its capability in the compression on the first flying lap with no concept of how it would react.
If he hits your car next time, hospitalising you, while having zero insurance cover would you be happy to sit there and wait for a GoFundMe to cover it?
If anyone here funds that, you’re funding the problem. If he can’t afford to fix this, then he can’t afford to hit you/your car or some other civilian out there and cover the mechanical/medical damages the next time.
Bottomed out the dampers in the foxhole mistaking it for Bilstein’s marketing teams GT4 (both mechanically/electronically) didn’t gather it up, arrived at the top of the foxhole with road car ABS/ESP pulsing, mistook the hard pedal (abs actively pulsing) for lack of brakes, panicked, sent a civilian into the barrier, putting the car on its roof.
At some point the frequency of his crashes need calling out, let alone the fact they are only getting bigger due to the cars he’s been handed being faster/more powerful than before. He put his passenger in danger pushing that car to beyond its capability in the compression on the first flying lap with no concept of how it would react.
If he hits your car next time, hospitalising you, while having zero insurance cover would you be happy to sit there and wait for a GoFundMe to cover it?
Nurburg Regular said:
I really can’t echo this enough. Even in the video he mentions the previous suspension set up it bottomed out ripping the sensor wire off and the new set up was worse - that’s the issue & what caused it? The driving. Bad way to find the issue sadly.
Nurburg Local said:
he mistakes the G82 M2 road car, for Bilstein’s GT4 car. At max compression they are worlds apart, both mechanically and electronically.
For a start all the rear arms are shorter on the GT4 car, to narrow the track width, allowing for more clearance at full compression. As such the tyre will not make contact with things at full compression, by design. The two have completely different roll centres, behaviours under bump steer etc, and that’s disregarding the fact that one is on road suspension, and the other is on full competition dampers literally spec’d for that compression.
Mechanically both cars will respond worlds apart at the same speed in that compression. Then there’s electronically. If you were to say bottom out the dampers and cause the car to get out of shape the next thing you need to do is gather it up going up the hill, because if it’s still out of shape at the top of the foxhole the hidden road car ABS/ESP is active, trying to save you. This pulsing of the abs pump gives the indication of a hard pedal. This could be mistaken for ‘no brakes’ if someone was panicking.
Those are all trademark freezes of Misha’s any time cars get out of shape in his video’s. He lacks the mechanical understanding in the first place to act and tbh, the ability to save it beyond that point when it goes wrong.
A real life version of this is him bottoming out the 992 Cup replica at Pflanzgarten. The damper bounce as they bottom out, the car gets completely out of shape but you’ll see the ESP light flashing and the car pulses. He sits there giving zero input into the save as the hidden ESP does the work. Porsches hidden ESP is waay ahead of BMW’s do, there’s only so many times the computers can save him from himself.
I note Misha has replied to the Nürburg group, a summary of his post:For a start all the rear arms are shorter on the GT4 car, to narrow the track width, allowing for more clearance at full compression. As such the tyre will not make contact with things at full compression, by design. The two have completely different roll centres, behaviours under bump steer etc, and that’s disregarding the fact that one is on road suspension, and the other is on full competition dampers literally spec’d for that compression.
Mechanically both cars will respond worlds apart at the same speed in that compression. Then there’s electronically. If you were to say bottom out the dampers and cause the car to get out of shape the next thing you need to do is gather it up going up the hill, because if it’s still out of shape at the top of the foxhole the hidden road car ABS/ESP is active, trying to save you. This pulsing of the abs pump gives the indication of a hard pedal. This could be mistaken for ‘no brakes’ if someone was panicking.
Those are all trademark freezes of Misha’s any time cars get out of shape in his video’s. He lacks the mechanical understanding in the first place to act and tbh, the ability to save it beyond that point when it goes wrong.
A real life version of this is him bottoming out the 992 Cup replica at Pflanzgarten. The damper bounce as they bottom out, the car gets completely out of shape but you’ll see the ESP light flashing and the car pulses. He sits there giving zero input into the save as the hidden ESP does the work. Porsches hidden ESP is waay ahead of BMW’s do, there’s only so many times the computers can save him from himself.
you all complain drivings too dangerous / too fast in TF but when people build quicker cars and give me the keys I will drive them quickly.
I know I said previously I used to enjoy his vids but that attitude is crap and will get him or someone injured one of these days.
What I find astonishing is people seem to think once he crashes your car he decides how and when the car is fixed??? Errr if you crashed my car the deal set beforehand is he pays you in 24 hrs the agreed value and its his issue what he does with the car...but maybe I'm just old fashioned.
The Nurburgring is home and source of income to a lot of professional drivers. These men and women rely on the place for employment as much as enjoyment.
I was lucky enough to get pax laps in an AMG A45 with Claus, who often does the commentary and guiding on the Ring bus tour. He’s been a driver instructor there for 20+ years, raced 5 times in the 24hours. That’s just one such individual. The breadth and depth of talent there is huge.
I think the local comments on ecsrobin’s post illustrate some of the genuine concerns and frustrations.
I was lucky enough to get pax laps in an AMG A45 with Claus, who often does the commentary and guiding on the Ring bus tour. He’s been a driver instructor there for 20+ years, raced 5 times in the 24hours. That’s just one such individual. The breadth and depth of talent there is huge.
I think the local comments on ecsrobin’s post illustrate some of the genuine concerns and frustrations.
I have just came back from there and drove TF every day/night, well not on Wed as it wasn’t open. I have done 40 laps this year probably 50% of which was TF.
I don’t hang around, but I don’t drive aggressively on people’s bumpers and I only overtake when i am as certain as I can be that the driver in front is aware.
The standard of driving I witnessed this trip was actually pretty good, most people were moving out the way of faster traffic and you can always tell what cars aren’t checking their mirrors.
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I don’t hang around, but I don’t drive aggressively on people’s bumpers and I only overtake when i am as certain as I can be that the driver in front is aware.
The standard of driving I witnessed this trip was actually pretty good, most people were moving out the way of faster traffic and you can always tell what cars aren’t checking their mirrors.
Am43 said:
I have just came back from there and drove TF every day/night, well not on Wed as it wasn’t open. I have done 40 laps this year probably 50% of which was TF.
I don’t hang around, but I don’t drive aggressively on people’s bumpers and I only overtake when i am as certain as I can be that the driver in front is aware.
The standard of driving I witnessed this trip was actually pretty good, most people were moving out the way of faster traffic and you can always tell what cars aren’t checking their mirrors.
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Great to hear. I think these days its much better to be in something like yours, which is capable of sub 8 without too much bother, so the closing speeds from mishas on a full time attack lap in TF aren't so high.I don’t hang around, but I don’t drive aggressively on people’s bumpers and I only overtake when i am as certain as I can be that the driver in front is aware.
The standard of driving I witnessed this trip was actually pretty good, most people were moving out the way of faster traffic and you can always tell what cars aren’t checking their mirrors.
Am43 said:
Lovely car and I'm really pleased people can still enjoy TF-as I've said before it's one of the most amazing things you can do in a car.But (and please don't think this is me being pissy-I'm really not), by the above photos you're running a British registered car with no helmets. What's your risk assessment on that considering if you were part of a big accident (or caused one yourself by dropping fluid) I presume you wouldn't be insured plus the personal risks of no head protection?
Great to hear there's some good laps testily be had.
PRO5T said:
Lovely car and I'm really pleased people can still enjoy TF-as I've said before it's one of the most amazing things you can do in a car.
But (and please don't think this is me being pissy-I'm really not), by the above photos you're running a British registered car with no helmets. What's your risk assessment on that considering if you were part of a big accident (or caused one yourself by dropping fluid) I presume you wouldn't be insured plus the personal risks of no head protection?
Great to hear there's some good laps testily be had.
I assume the risk assessment is most likely 'hope it doesn't happen' and do what you can within reason to avoid it. No head protection is the same as driving fast on a B road, a risk many of us 'car enthusiasts' take. At least you know someone isn't coming towards you on the other side of the road!But (and please don't think this is me being pissy-I'm really not), by the above photos you're running a British registered car with no helmets. What's your risk assessment on that considering if you were part of a big accident (or caused one yourself by dropping fluid) I presume you wouldn't be insured plus the personal risks of no head protection?
Great to hear there's some good laps testily be had.
PRO5T said:
Lovely car and I'm really pleased people can still enjoy TF-as I've said before it's one of the most amazing things you can do in a car.
But (and please don't think this is me being pissy-I'm really not), by the above photos you're running a British registered car with no helmets. What's your risk assessment on that considering if you were part of a big accident (or caused one yourself by dropping fluid) I presume you wouldn't be insured plus the personal risks of no head protection?
Great to hear there's some good laps testily be had.
Have you ever looked into helmets on TF, I did a while ago and it was basically damned if you do damned if you don’t due to not being able to run Hans and because the cars have airbags. There was a good report I read but can’t find it at the moment. But (and please don't think this is me being pissy-I'm really not), by the above photos you're running a British registered car with no helmets. What's your risk assessment on that considering if you were part of a big accident (or caused one yourself by dropping fluid) I presume you wouldn't be insured plus the personal risks of no head protection?
Great to hear there's some good laps testily be had.
Edited by ecsrobin on Sunday 16th June 21:28
PRO5T said:
Am43 said:
Lovely car and I'm really pleased people can still enjoy TF-as I've said before it's one of the most amazing things you can do in a car.But (and please don't think this is me being pissy-I'm really not), by the above photos you're running a British registered car with no helmets. What's your risk assessment on that considering if you were part of a big accident (or caused one yourself by dropping fluid) I presume you wouldn't be insured plus the personal risks of no head protection?
Great to hear there's some good laps testily be had.
I actsully had that conversation before any laps, I was more concious of the passenger being comfortable with it than I was but there is always risk, I have a half cage and harnesses all airbags still installed.
As mentioned above, I also feel damned if you do and damned If you don’t. There isn’t really a right answer, and as you are aware some do, but from what I have seen most do not wear a helmet on TF, the ones who do wear a helmet are generally fully caged cars for obvious reasons.
There are that many foreign ( non German ) registered cars on track nowadays I’m not sure anyone is really covered the way they think they are. All I can do for myself is be as cautious as possible and maintain the car the best I can.
Every day pre track I actually jack the car, remove all wheels, check all tyres/suspension components and brakes, check all fluids etc.
I’m an engineer and my brain won’t just allow any less, not that it would stop a coolant hose bursting or a catastrophic failure of a component, I have built a very nice well specced car and I would like to keep it that way.
As you mentioned, it is an amazing place and it’s something I feel may not be around forever for pubic use
Edited by Am43 on Sunday 16th June 23:21
ecsrobin said:
Have you ever looked into helmets on TF, I did a while ago and it was basically damned if you do damned if you don’t due to not being able to run Hans and because the cars have airbags. There was a good report I read but can’t find it at the moment.
On a slight tangent.. I once did a rough head count on a premium trackday at the ring. Of those drivers in caged cars running harnesses obviously wearing helmets, if I remember right it was less than 1 in 10 were wearing a hans or any other type of neck restraint when wearing a motorsport helmet with Hans posts. Edited by ecsrobin on Sunday 16th June 21:28
I was a bit surprised at the amount of money spent on the car and upgrades but the occupants head/neck interface counts for not a lot.
Dale Earnhardt paid the price for dissing a simple safety device.
doogalman said:
ecsrobin said:
Have you ever looked into helmets on TF, I did a while ago and it was basically damned if you do damned if you don’t due to not being able to run Hans and because the cars have airbags. There was a good report I read but can’t find it at the moment.
On a slight tangent.. I once did a rough head count on a premium trackday at the ring. Of those drivers in caged cars running harnesses obviously wearing helmets, if I remember right it was less than 1 in 10 were wearing a hans or any other type of neck restraint when wearing a motorsport helmet with Hans posts. Edited by ecsrobin on Sunday 16th June 21:28
I was a bit surprised at the amount of money spent on the car and upgrades but the occupants head/neck interface counts for not a lot.
Dale Earnhardt paid the price for dissing a simple safety device.
I have to admit, I am one of those full kit w
kers who doesn't wear Hans. Decent car, bucket seats, full cage, 6-point harnesses, helmet with Hans attachments points, but no Hans...PRO5T said:
Am43 said:
Lovely car and I'm really pleased people can still enjoy TF-as I've said before it's one of the most amazing things you can do in a car.But (and please don't think this is me being pissy-I'm really not), by the above photos you're running a British registered car with no helmets. What's your risk assessment on that considering if you were part of a big accident (or caused one yourself by dropping fluid) I presume you wouldn't be insured plus the personal risks of no head protection?
Great to hear there's some good laps testily be had.
But it's one of the reasons I very quickly switched to doing most of my laps on trackdays.
However! TF is so fun, the Wild West atmosphere and the sheer absurdity of it all is something to be savoured.
So... Me and a mate bought a RHD Clio RS car on German plates and German insurance. So fully insured for 3rd party liability on TF.
Looking forward to getting it out later this year.
Also doing a Trackday in the GT4 in August with OldTimer GP, 2nd year doing it with them. Really nice day, no heroes, minimal Brits
Digga said:
I was at the Daytona 500 when The Initmidator won the event for the first time and I know what happened to him there just a couple of years later.
I have to admit, I am one of those full kit wkers who doesn't wear Hans. Decent car, bucket seats, full cage, 6-point harnesses, helmet with Hans attachments points, but no Hans...
I'm a fond believer in HANS. I had a 70mph+ crash with another car during a race and I had an ever-so-slightly stiff shoulder for one day and that was it. Some of my friends have had 120mph+ crashes and have suffered equally mild symptoms. The kinds of crashes that can prove fatal without HANs can start from as low as 45mph and so I think they are well worth the cost and the mild inconvenience in terms of reduced head motion (which I assume is the reason they are banned during TF).I have to admit, I am one of those full kit w
kers who doesn't wear Hans. Decent car, bucket seats, full cage, 6-point harnesses, helmet with Hans attachments points, but no Hans...Obviously it is a personal choice but if you have the ability to run a HANs (proper harnesses etc) I think that it may be worth considering. I think mine was about £200 so not even the cost of decent brake pads.
honda_exige said:
Let's be honest, everyone's risk assessment is the same, they hope it doesn't happen to them, which was my risk assessment too.
But it's one of the reasons I very quickly switched to doing most of my laps on trackdays.
However! TF is so fun, the Wild West atmosphere and the sheer absurdity of it all is something to be savoured.
So... Me and a mate bought a RHD Clio RS car on German plates and German insurance. So fully insured for 3rd party liability on TF.
Looking forward to getting it out later this year.
Also doing a Trackday in the GT4 in August with OldTimer GP, 2nd year doing it with them. Really nice day, no heroes, minimal Brits
With a bit of hindsight I should have started with a German M4, I also looked at registering my car in Germany, but with brexit it’s a little more complicated, I may end up down one of these routes still.But it's one of the reasons I very quickly switched to doing most of my laps on trackdays.
However! TF is so fun, the Wild West atmosphere and the sheer absurdity of it all is something to be savoured.
So... Me and a mate bought a RHD Clio RS car on German plates and German insurance. So fully insured for 3rd party liability on TF.
Looking forward to getting it out later this year.
Also doing a Trackday in the GT4 in August with OldTimer GP, 2nd year doing it with them. Really nice day, no heroes, minimal Brits
Track days are a lot better, I completely agree, your comments about TF are also spot on, having a few laps in the evening with friends then going for dinner is great.
I have just had a look at the OldTimer GP track day, haven’t heard of that one actually. Handy to know
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