Nurburgring 2024
Discussion
He is a really nice guy and a superb driver, I first met him years ago when he went under the booster borris moniker.
I actually briefly appeared in his Chris Harris video last month unintentionally, I didn’t realise he was filming.
As it was TF the next day he invited me over to his new place to show me some stuff, I had an inkling he wanted to drive my car but as it turned out I ran out of time to go see him.
I’d let him drive my car but certainly not on TF. I’ve no idea if he insures himself or whatever on other peoples cars? I agree he’s way too fast for TF but more importantly he drives too fast for TF.
Whether or not he’s insured he has no idea of the mechanical safety of what he’s driving out there-as proven again today.
I’ve every respect for the amazing business he’s built himself around his channel, he clearly puts the effort in and deserves the success.
But years ago, I was so pleased when top gear went to see some taxi/part time race driver called Sabine and suddenly everyone knew about this wierd place in Germany I’d been banging on about for years.
Then I got a bit dismayed at how suddenly popular it had become.
After returning to the ring this year after 5 years away I way amazed it had actually got worse. The amount of tuned up British cars being driven full send with zero safety gear (no cages, harnesses or even helmets!) and more than likely zero insurance cover was scary.
I kind of feel like the YouTubers have been the common factor in making it so.
On a Friday evening we walked off the steaks from PK with a stroll through town and up to the Dorint to see friends.
It was like a car cruise all night with synchronised pop and bang maps until way past midnight.
Some kids in some 140i BMWs were doing continuous loops along the ring boulevard drifting it around each ends roundabout. For about three hours! No police, nowt.
I still love it but it’s a different place. I truly miss old TF. I wouldn’t drive it now unless I lucked into a midweek quiet summers night if they still exist. Those quiet late laps when the sun is getting low, you’re only at 8/10ths speed, you see a couple of bikers, maybe a local expert in an old golf or Megane and one dream supercar. Bliss.
Then over to Ed for some zuper plus and a crack in the car park.
I actually briefly appeared in his Chris Harris video last month unintentionally, I didn’t realise he was filming.
As it was TF the next day he invited me over to his new place to show me some stuff, I had an inkling he wanted to drive my car but as it turned out I ran out of time to go see him.
I’d let him drive my car but certainly not on TF. I’ve no idea if he insures himself or whatever on other peoples cars? I agree he’s way too fast for TF but more importantly he drives too fast for TF.
Whether or not he’s insured he has no idea of the mechanical safety of what he’s driving out there-as proven again today.
I’ve every respect for the amazing business he’s built himself around his channel, he clearly puts the effort in and deserves the success.
But years ago, I was so pleased when top gear went to see some taxi/part time race driver called Sabine and suddenly everyone knew about this wierd place in Germany I’d been banging on about for years.
Then I got a bit dismayed at how suddenly popular it had become.
After returning to the ring this year after 5 years away I way amazed it had actually got worse. The amount of tuned up British cars being driven full send with zero safety gear (no cages, harnesses or even helmets!) and more than likely zero insurance cover was scary.
I kind of feel like the YouTubers have been the common factor in making it so.
On a Friday evening we walked off the steaks from PK with a stroll through town and up to the Dorint to see friends.
It was like a car cruise all night with synchronised pop and bang maps until way past midnight.
Some kids in some 140i BMWs were doing continuous loops along the ring boulevard drifting it around each ends roundabout. For about three hours! No police, nowt.
I still love it but it’s a different place. I truly miss old TF. I wouldn’t drive it now unless I lucked into a midweek quiet summers night if they still exist. Those quiet late laps when the sun is getting low, you’re only at 8/10ths speed, you see a couple of bikers, maybe a local expert in an old golf or Megane and one dream supercar. Bliss.
Then over to Ed for some zuper plus and a crack in the car park.
It's certainly gone downhill. The best way I could describe it is that it's changed from being a "car guy" place to a bit of an Instagram destination for wideboys. There will still be car guys there of course but people cruising up and down for the sake of it? Why!?
I'm a post top gear Luddite going since 2006 I think TG was 2005 but certainly pre boulevard. There was a relaxed vibe around the area it was very very quiet at night the hotel bars would wind up by 10.30pm there was certainly no drifting about and poor behavior on the streets.
The old vibe is still there you just go to a trackday instead.
I'm not sure what the solution is. These visitors spend money and although they are a pain in the bum sometimes the Ring needs visitors. I'm staggered that Misha still has a media licence I just can't see how his content promotes the interests of the track in the right way.
I'm a post top gear Luddite going since 2006 I think TG was 2005 but certainly pre boulevard. There was a relaxed vibe around the area it was very very quiet at night the hotel bars would wind up by 10.30pm there was certainly no drifting about and poor behavior on the streets.
The old vibe is still there you just go to a trackday instead.
I'm not sure what the solution is. These visitors spend money and although they are a pain in the bum sometimes the Ring needs visitors. I'm staggered that Misha still has a media licence I just can't see how his content promotes the interests of the track in the right way.
fridaypassion said:
It's certainly gone downhill. The best way I could describe it is that it's changed from being a "car guy" place to a bit of an Instagram destination for wideboys. There will still be car guys there of course but people cruising up and down for the sake of it? Why!?
I'm a post top gear Luddite going since 2006 I think TG was 2005 but certainly pre boulevard. There was a relaxed vibe around the area it was very very quiet at night the hotel bars would wind up by 10.30pm there was certainly no drifting about and poor behavior on the streets.
The old vibe is still there you just go to a trackday instead.
I'm not sure what the solution is. These visitors spend money and although they are a pain in the bum sometimes the Ring needs visitors. I'm staggered that Misha still has a media licence I just can't see how his content promotes the interests of the track in the right way.
This is definitely true. I would say just go to DN days or whatever, but unless you're in something around the low 8's you might find the porsches with zero clue quite annoying/initimidating. Last year there were 5 of them written off I was at by mid afternoon, causing very long reds. I'm a post top gear Luddite going since 2006 I think TG was 2005 but certainly pre boulevard. There was a relaxed vibe around the area it was very very quiet at night the hotel bars would wind up by 10.30pm there was certainly no drifting about and poor behavior on the streets.
The old vibe is still there you just go to a trackday instead.
I'm not sure what the solution is. These visitors spend money and although they are a pain in the bum sometimes the Ring needs visitors. I'm staggered that Misha still has a media licence I just can't see how his content promotes the interests of the track in the right way.
jasonrobertson86 said:
This is definitely true. I would say just go to DN days or whatever, but unless you're in something around the low 8's you might find the porsches with zero clue quite annoying/initimidating. Last year there were 5 of them written off I was at by mid afternoon, causing very long reds.
Not quite true. There was actually one GT3 RS written off and the track was closed for about 50 minutes (this was the inly closure of the 2 day event) DN is definitely the way to do it for me these days! jasonrobertson86 said:
I don't think anything was proven. If the brakes failed, they would for any of us.
Yes that’s sort of what I was getting at. Obviously a failure is a failure for anyone driving but in my opinion only, Mischa at times drives at 10/10th without knowing the mechanical preparation of what he’s driving.jasonrobertson86 said:
This is definitely true. I would say just go to DN days or whatever, but unless you're in something around the low 8's you might find the porsches with zero clue quite annoying/initimidating. Last year there were 5 of them written off I was at by mid afternoon, causing very long reds.
Agreed on all points, I was actually there in my old GT3 that I’ve only bought this year. I was going intentionally slow, no flying laps and building up speed and trust in the car despite it getting a full check over at my local cup car team prior to leaving.When I last visited in the 997 RS I couldn’t believe the closing speeds of the 991 generation cars, now the 992 and cayman RS have moved the game on even further!
My old antiquated 996, despite some very trick parts is like an old Sunday driver out for a bimble-I might have to put a Panama hat and a box of tissues in the rear window for the next track day to warn others!
fridaypassion said:
Not quite true. There was actually one GT3 RS written off and the track was closed for about 50 minutes (this was the inly closure of the 2 day event) DN is definitely the way to do it for me these days!
Oh, I must be getting mixed up with an RSR Spa day last year with was porshe smashes aplenty or it was the other DN day last year. As mentioned above, the average speed has gone up a lot, often by people who couldn't drive a caterham around a track in the wet within 5 secs of a decent driver, I think the chances of more serious incidents will have incrreased. I'm both pleased and saddened to read the above posts.... Likewise I'd been a few times, all before the rise of social media, so over 10 years ago.
I also used to be quicker! The older I get, the faster I was!
But it seemed like being in a game of Forza Horizon, with tuned up everything, everywhere. Then the circuit seemed to be maximum attack from everyone - which I found a bit nuts! Given the lack of insurance, and that' it's "just a TF" day, it'd seem like I didn't get the memo.
It was always regarded as "treat it like a fast B road" as you never know what is round the corner...
So yeah, I was also in the old 997, taking a slow ride with the right hand indicator on the whole time
and I'm happy with that 
it feels like weekdays are the only hope...
I also used to be quicker! The older I get, the faster I was!
But it seemed like being in a game of Forza Horizon, with tuned up everything, everywhere. Then the circuit seemed to be maximum attack from everyone - which I found a bit nuts! Given the lack of insurance, and that' it's "just a TF" day, it'd seem like I didn't get the memo.
It was always regarded as "treat it like a fast B road" as you never know what is round the corner...
So yeah, I was also in the old 997, taking a slow ride with the right hand indicator on the whole time
and I'm happy with that it feels like weekdays are the only hope... Misha ended up sat on the barrier on the inside left after the kerb. Ain't going to end up there unless you were driving way too fast! Looks a pretty big accident here was lucky to walk away relatively unharmed.
I know he's blaming the car and incredibly the place that built it but was it the first lap the car had done? Why does it have to be him that's found a flaw? Not taking responsibility and blaming others is pretty narcissistic.
I know he's blaming the car and incredibly the place that built it but was it the first lap the car had done? Why does it have to be him that's found a flaw? Not taking responsibility and blaming others is pretty narcissistic.
I was there May 6th-10th this year and it was hectic. I've been almost every year for a decade, and it's getting harder to enjoy the place. Last year I actually got about 8 completely clear TF laps, enjoyed the hell out of it. That was in evening sessions.
This year the first evening was wet so we went for a session of the F1 track which was actually a blast, but even then there was a Mégane harrying a GT3 RS and a C8 corvette, getting way too close and generally looking like an accident about to happen.
Second evening was ok but busying up with arrivals for the full day.
The full day, German public holiday was just chaos. Didn't open until 10am for fog, 20 min queues to get on and off the track. Surprisingly few stoppages but on track it felt like you were constantly on the mirrors and on the defensive. Had a caged M3 nearly take a mates mx-5 out because he couldn't bear to lift up the drag to Karrusel. The M3 put 2 wheels off the track in getting by, nearly a moment.
And fwiw I agree re Misha. He's driving unproven machinery at maximum attack with the aim of making exciting content. He preaches respect of the track and others but doesn't demonstrate it. The proximity he drives to others, the way he approaches and overtakes, is more suited to race conditions than TF. He crashes enough that I don't think it's all for show, he really is on the ragged edge and as good as he may be he's not good enough to drive that aggressively with margin.
Sadly with increasing popularity I can't see how TF are sustainable. We've been going 10 years with 10-15 cars in our group and thankfully never had an incident, but the odds are increasingly against us and any collision is likely to be a Biggie because of increasing speeds and aggression of the place.
This year the first evening was wet so we went for a session of the F1 track which was actually a blast, but even then there was a Mégane harrying a GT3 RS and a C8 corvette, getting way too close and generally looking like an accident about to happen.
Second evening was ok but busying up with arrivals for the full day.
The full day, German public holiday was just chaos. Didn't open until 10am for fog, 20 min queues to get on and off the track. Surprisingly few stoppages but on track it felt like you were constantly on the mirrors and on the defensive. Had a caged M3 nearly take a mates mx-5 out because he couldn't bear to lift up the drag to Karrusel. The M3 put 2 wheels off the track in getting by, nearly a moment.
And fwiw I agree re Misha. He's driving unproven machinery at maximum attack with the aim of making exciting content. He preaches respect of the track and others but doesn't demonstrate it. The proximity he drives to others, the way he approaches and overtakes, is more suited to race conditions than TF. He crashes enough that I don't think it's all for show, he really is on the ragged edge and as good as he may be he's not good enough to drive that aggressively with margin.
Sadly with increasing popularity I can't see how TF are sustainable. We've been going 10 years with 10-15 cars in our group and thankfully never had an incident, but the odds are increasingly against us and any collision is likely to be a Biggie because of increasing speeds and aggression of the place.
Edited by WeirdNeville on Sunday 9th June 14:17
Really rather sad to hear all this 
I first went in 2002 and it felt like a secret club for car nuts, very special place and all the information on the net seemed to be centred on the Ben's Nurburgring.org site and the old ring groups (remember the m4....mad Swiss guy's m5 powered e30 m3).
I haven't been since about 2010 and so looks like TF is definitely not worth the hassle and I'll check out DN days, are there any others I should look into?
I first went in 2002 and it felt like a secret club for car nuts, very special place and all the information on the net seemed to be centred on the Ben's Nurburgring.org site and the old ring groups (remember the m4....mad Swiss guy's m5 powered e30 m3).
I haven't been since about 2010 and so looks like TF is definitely not worth the hassle and I'll check out DN days, are there any others I should look into?
cseven said:
Really rather sad to hear all this
I first went in 2002 and it felt like a secret club for car nuts, very special place and all the information on the net seemed to be centred on the Ben's Nurburgring.org site and the old ring groups (remember the m4....mad Swiss guy's m5 powered e30 m3).
I haven't been since about 2010 and so looks like TF is definitely not worth the hassle and I'll check out DN days, are there any others I should look into?
I think there are three well say four distinct periods for the Ring/TFI first went in 2002 and it felt like a secret club for car nuts, very special place and all the information on the net seemed to be centred on the Ben's Nurburgring.org site and the old ring groups (remember the m4....mad Swiss guy's m5 powered e30 m3).
I haven't been since about 2010 and so looks like TF is definitely not worth the hassle and I'll check out DN days, are there any others I should look into?
Pre internet
This must have been an absolute dream with the place to yourself for a few DM. The stuff of niche guide books. Yellowbird. Moustaches. Loafers.
The Ben Lovejoy Era
Internet is here but no social media, I read every word of Bens blogs I think my first visit might have been just after his last. This looks to have been a great era with most of the regular UK visitors knowing each other. Plenty of crashes in this time and fatalities for Bikers probably more than they are today.
The Dale Lomas Era
This is my era I remember Dale having the MX5 and RX8. This is post top gear so busy but never to the extent you see now with a 5 wide queue down the DH. Still just a racetrack next to a tiny village. Got to know Eddie and the Daniel family at Zur Burg as we were putting in at least one trip per year sometimes a couple. Would often meet people from the UK trackday scene which also seemed like a much smaller family back then. All was not perfect there were still some crazy drivers and I ended my TF career in 2017 following one too many near misses and almost got T boned in my lovely Cayman S twice. Handed my last two laps to a mate and the was that. BTG was always a great resource and I think Dale was a fantastic representative of the Brits out there. Nurburgring for grown ups.
The Misha era
Well whilst not directly a slur on Misha I have met him BTW nice chap but it's the culture. The insta/YouTube/showoff culture and the LFF fanboys coming over and frankly embarrassing us Brits. I really hope the German people know enough "normal" brits that they dont think we are all like these brap brap pop bang morons that drive like idiots on the village roads. Another thing that adds to the danger of the ring/TF/Driver inexperience is the Sims that give new drivers way too much confidence as they think they know the track. I remember once taking someone on a pax lap and he was telling me to go quicker round certain corners having never even driven a lap! It was his first trip to the Ring but he had 2000 virtual laps under his belt. He crashed his car driving like an idiot outside of the track on his first solo visit.
Trackdays are certainly recommended DN is a very high standard event with genuine low numbers. Circuitdays are a good alternative although they book slightly more cars on than they admit to. And by slightly I mean loads. Still a good company though and much quieter than TF.
The only thing I would say with trackdays is that you dont have the "buzz" of TF theres certainly a different feel about the place on TF days but that excitement there was is more drama and stupidness now I think! I would still visit the area when TF is on for a mooch around but I would never go out on track again.
Edited by fridaypassion on Sunday 9th June 11:39
fridaypassion said:
I think there are three well say four distinct periods for the Ring/TF
Agreed. We must have "overlapped" lol.
I started 2010 and stropped with COVID.
Had immense fun on TF and TDs there.
I was well aware of the TF risks and at the end of every visit I thought I got away with it so quit while you're ahead.
I started TDs too at the same time as a back up.
Not sure if and when I will go back but probably never on TF sadly. Too much to lose!
Cadwell Park is my back up now!
cseven said:
Really rather sad to hear all this
I first went in 2002 and it felt like a secret club for car nuts, very special place and all the information on the net seemed to be centred on the Ben's Nurburgring.org site and the old ring groups (remember the m4....mad Swiss guy's m5 powered e30 m3).
I haven't been since about 2010 and so looks like TF is definitely not worth the hassle and I'll check out DN days, are there any others I should look into?
Fabian Sigvart’s E30 M3 was powered by a genuine M1 Procar engine with about 470bhp. The fact that Fabian’s day job was being a BMW Test Driver was the added icing on the cake… I first went in 2002 and it felt like a secret club for car nuts, very special place and all the information on the net seemed to be centred on the Ben's Nurburgring.org site and the old ring groups (remember the m4....mad Swiss guy's m5 powered e30 m3).
I haven't been since about 2010 and so looks like TF is definitely not worth the hassle and I'll check out DN days, are there any others I should look into?
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