Excited for a new trackday year!
Discussion
arkitan said:
I think we are basically agreeing.
Most of my experience on track has been in mid engined cars and trail braking certainly helps. In front engined cars, that do tend to understeer anyway it helps but with the limitations described.
BTW, maintaining near 100% braking pressure up till the corner is most definitely not the way to trail brake. If you look at telemetry from experienced drivers, the brake pressure trace usually shows a brief peak (brief but longer than a stab) followed by a rapid bleed to a much lower level often 20-30%, freeing up available grip to be used as the front wheels turn into the corner, and then bleeding off totally at the apex and before applying throttle (unless you come from the A Senna school of driving that is...)
Something like the Trophi ai app that Driver 61 have just released on SIMs is fascinating as you can see how individual corners have different shapes of ideal braking pressure curves, and memorising the shapes of these curves as as important as learning the braking points and the driving line. There are curves for steering input and throttle but these are usually far easier to predict yourself. You can get totally absorbed by the technical analysis of what makes a good lap before very long! An opposite approach is just to practice and then analyse your laps. Usually you will find your telemetry has changed to mirror what the ai recommends which is reassuring. It's also a lot cheaper than going into the gravel trap in real life!
(ETA - telemetry coaches are usually not the fastest, there will always be individual drivers who can get more out of a lap, but they are a very good way to get in the ball park of a competent lap time that you can then build on. they also can't account for tyre wear and changing track conditions of course.)
I watched a lot of Driver61's earlier videos, but not so much the SIM stuff. It does help you think about how you drive the track. (Coincidently, I had a good chat with his dad, I was parked next to on a Mallory trackday.)Most of my experience on track has been in mid engined cars and trail braking certainly helps. In front engined cars, that do tend to understeer anyway it helps but with the limitations described.
BTW, maintaining near 100% braking pressure up till the corner is most definitely not the way to trail brake. If you look at telemetry from experienced drivers, the brake pressure trace usually shows a brief peak (brief but longer than a stab) followed by a rapid bleed to a much lower level often 20-30%, freeing up available grip to be used as the front wheels turn into the corner, and then bleeding off totally at the apex and before applying throttle (unless you come from the A Senna school of driving that is...)
Something like the Trophi ai app that Driver 61 have just released on SIMs is fascinating as you can see how individual corners have different shapes of ideal braking pressure curves, and memorising the shapes of these curves as as important as learning the braking points and the driving line. There are curves for steering input and throttle but these are usually far easier to predict yourself. You can get totally absorbed by the technical analysis of what makes a good lap before very long! An opposite approach is just to practice and then analyse your laps. Usually you will find your telemetry has changed to mirror what the ai recommends which is reassuring. It's also a lot cheaper than going into the gravel trap in real life!
(ETA - telemetry coaches are usually not the fastest, there will always be individual drivers who can get more out of a lap, but they are a very good way to get in the ball park of a competent lap time that you can then build on. they also can't account for tyre wear and changing track conditions of course.)
Edited by arkitan on Friday 26th January 11:11
Andy Walsh talks about the 'traction circle' in his Carlimits DVD. It's a way of describing how the tyre only has 100% grip, so if your applying 30% brake there is only 70% available for turning. (I can't explain it as well as he does.)
Yes, the thing that I always underestimate without telemetry is just how long you need to keep some brake pressure on.
When you do it properly, corners that were previously twitchy on the limit of you losing control suddenly become much more stable despite the fact that you care actually cornering faster.
It's black magic when you get it right and allows you to push harder and with more consistency lap after lap.
Someone explained it to me the the difference between a fast and a really fast driver is not how they use the power (because anyone can mash the throttle) but how effectively they allocate the grip. Jackie Stewart famously said that few drivers really understood how important it was to come off the brakes correctly (basically trail braking).
When you do it properly, corners that were previously twitchy on the limit of you losing control suddenly become much more stable despite the fact that you care actually cornering faster.
It's black magic when you get it right and allows you to push harder and with more consistency lap after lap.
Someone explained it to me the the difference between a fast and a really fast driver is not how they use the power (because anyone can mash the throttle) but how effectively they allocate the grip. Jackie Stewart famously said that few drivers really understood how important it was to come off the brakes correctly (basically trail braking).
Edited by arkitan on Friday 26th January 11:31
arkitan said:
...
BTW, maintaining near 100% braking pressure up till the corner is most definitely not the way to trail brake.
Maybe you misinterpreted 'corner' in that post. The inference was corner entry (i.e. 100% braking up to corner entry), not corner apex.BTW, maintaining near 100% braking pressure up till the corner is most definitely not the way to trail brake.
Obvs anyone trying to brake 100% into the apex will find themselves facing backwards before they get there
This is interesting stuff, thanks guys! Really need to practise more, might get some instruction sessions as it's somewhat counter intuitive to be braking and turning, even if you're coming off the brakes as you start applying turning. But as I say, I'm more used to front engined cars!
braddo said:
arkitan said:
...
BTW, maintaining near 100% braking pressure up till the corner is most definitely not the way to trail brake.
Maybe you misinterpreted 'corner' in that post. The inference was corner entry (i.e. 100% braking up to corner entry), not corner apex.BTW, maintaining near 100% braking pressure up till the corner is most definitely not the way to trail brake.
Obvs anyone trying to brake 100% into the apex will find themselves facing backwards before they get there
certainly car needs to be stable at point of introducing a turn and not fully loaded or front lifting up on too much brake release.
all this within just a few metres too
SpudLink said:
I watched a lot of Driver61's earlier videos, but not so much the SIM stuff. It does help you think about how you drive the track. (Coincidently, I had a good chat with his dad, I was parked next to on a Mallory trackday.)
Andy Walsh talks about the 'traction circle' in his Carlimits DVD. It's a way of describing how the tyre only has 100% grip, so if your applying 30% brake there is only 70% available for turning. (I can't explain it as well as he does.)
I've done an Andy Walsh day years ago. Very useful!Andy Walsh talks about the 'traction circle' in his Carlimits DVD. It's a way of describing how the tyre only has 100% grip, so if your applying 30% brake there is only 70% available for turning. (I can't explain it as well as he does.)
I'm sure he said, and I'm happy to be corrected, is that within limits, trail braking in a fwd car causes the front end to load up, and using the 100% grip analogy, actually increases the amount of ultimate grip available on the loaded tyre at that point which could be now 110% compared to the non trail braking grip.
I'm not sure if I explained that well at all.
Obviously the rear is unloaded therefore reducing the grip available there which makes it all about the balance through your braking modulation.
Anyway, this seems to be going a bit off topic but as someone going from fwd to mid engine I'm very interested in reading the posts and am looking forward to seeing how it actually works in practice in the new car.
Wh00sher said:
I've done an Andy Walsh day years ago. Very useful!
I'm sure he said, and I'm happy to be corrected, is that within limits, trail braking in a fwd car causes the front end to load up, and using the 100% grip analogy, actually increases the amount of ultimate grip available on the loaded tyre at that point which could be now 110% compared to the non trail braking grip.
I'm not sure if I explained that well at all.
Obviously the rear is unloaded therefore reducing the grip available there which makes it all about the balance through your braking modulation.
Anyway, this seems to be going a bit off topic but as someone going from fwd to mid engine I'm very interested in reading the posts and am looking forward to seeing how it actually works in practice in the new car.
given that Golf was a highly tailored glove fitted to you, how are you going to adjust to the new beast?I'm sure he said, and I'm happy to be corrected, is that within limits, trail braking in a fwd car causes the front end to load up, and using the 100% grip analogy, actually increases the amount of ultimate grip available on the loaded tyre at that point which could be now 110% compared to the non trail braking grip.
I'm not sure if I explained that well at all.
Obviously the rear is unloaded therefore reducing the grip available there which makes it all about the balance through your braking modulation.
Anyway, this seems to be going a bit off topic but as someone going from fwd to mid engine I'm very interested in reading the posts and am looking forward to seeing how it actually works in practice in the new car.
some professional guidance would clearly be useful. not lecturing, just curious. a 1-1 with Don Palmer or CAT?
braddo said:
arkitan said:
...
BTW, maintaining near 100% braking pressure up till the corner is most definitely not the way to trail brake.
Maybe you misinterpreted 'corner' in that post. The inference was corner entry (i.e. 100% braking up to corner entry), not corner apex.BTW, maintaining near 100% braking pressure up till the corner is most definitely not the way to trail brake.
Obvs anyone trying to brake 100% into the apex will find themselves facing backwards before they get there
Corners have an entry, apex and exit, unqualified use of the word implies the conglomerate of all these
Pedantic debates like this are why the internet was invented
Edited by arkitan on Friday 26th January 19:02
CABC said:
given that Golf was a highly tailored glove fitted to you, how are you going to adjust to the new beast?
some professional guidance would clearly be useful. not lecturing, just curious. a 1-1 with Don Palmer or CAT?
Oh definitely. I'm very comfortable in the Golf, when it's throwing it down and I'm on the wrong tyres and it's moving around a lot, I just grin and keep lapping.some professional guidance would clearly be useful. not lecturing, just curious. a 1-1 with Don Palmer or CAT?
That confidence in the car and being relaxed in bad conditions only comes after a lot of seat time for me.
That's why I posted in this thread, I'm excited about the new car and the learning that it will need.
Initially I'll drive it myself and get a feel for it but then definitely get some instruction to improve, but only when I am comfortable driving. I want to be able to relax which then frees up my mind to fully take on board what the instructor is saying.
first trackday of 2024 done, and all is right with the world! was a little apprehensive having a new (to me) car, and having not done a trackday for nearly a year, but it all came back to me no problem.
had a great day driving my car properly, revving it out the redline, and touching 127mph on the back straight at bedford which is a new record for me. even got a bit of tuition so have things to work on in the future.
already booked another day at donington in mid may, but now thinking of squeezing in snetterton before that, then maybe thruxton in july... man i'd forgot how much fun trackdays are, nothing beats hooning a car round a track, heel and toeing the downshifts, feeling the car grip up and slingshot out the bends. addictive fun.
had a great day driving my car properly, revving it out the redline, and touching 127mph on the back straight at bedford which is a new record for me. even got a bit of tuition so have things to work on in the future.
already booked another day at donington in mid may, but now thinking of squeezing in snetterton before that, then maybe thruxton in july... man i'd forgot how much fun trackdays are, nothing beats hooning a car round a track, heel and toeing the downshifts, feeling the car grip up and slingshot out the bends. addictive fun.
brillomaster said:
first trackday of 2024 done, and all is right with the world! was a little apprehensive having a new (to me) car, and having not done a trackday for nearly a year, but it all came back to me no problem.
had a great day driving my car properly, revving it out the redline, and touching 127mph on the back straight at bedford which is a new record for me. even got a bit of tuition so have things to work on in the future.
already booked another day at donington in mid may, but now thinking of squeezing in snetterton before that, then maybe thruxton in july... man i'd forgot how much fun trackdays are, nothing beats hooning a car round a track, heel and toeing the downshifts, feeling the car grip up and slingshot out the bends. addictive fun.
You can get pretty big speed on that back-straight giving a real test for the breaks. had a great day driving my car properly, revving it out the redline, and touching 127mph on the back straight at bedford which is a new record for me. even got a bit of tuition so have things to work on in the future.
already booked another day at donington in mid may, but now thinking of squeezing in snetterton before that, then maybe thruxton in july... man i'd forgot how much fun trackdays are, nothing beats hooning a car round a track, heel and toeing the downshifts, feeling the car grip up and slingshot out the bends. addictive fun.
I'm getting properly addicted too. Did Brands Hatch in Jan, doing Doinington this weekend and have Cadwell booked for April. Will probably do Bedford again later in the year, with a little more confidence to explore limits thanks to the run off areas.
I think its only really the cost of consumables that stops me doing this all the time.
theres definitely a reason why light cars make good track cars - caterhams and westfields have cheap tyres because they're only 13s, and they last for ages. similarly brake pads are cheap, and last ages too.
slightly counter intuitively, spending more on higher quality parts can work out better value in the long run - a set of standard brake pads might be £50 and last one trackday, but spend £200 on a set and they'll last an entire season no problem. as for tyres, they generally last ok as long as you arent understeering or oversteering too much. and in the wet, tyre wear is actually quite minimal.
slightly counter intuitively, spending more on higher quality parts can work out better value in the long run - a set of standard brake pads might be £50 and last one trackday, but spend £200 on a set and they'll last an entire season no problem. as for tyres, they generally last ok as long as you arent understeering or oversteering too much. and in the wet, tyre wear is actually quite minimal.
I'm looking forward to doing my first trackday in the GT86 I bought to replace my MR2 last year. I'd been doing trackdays in the mr2 since 2014, but fancied a change I ended up with a very low mileage facelift 86.
It's off to abbey motorsport this weekend to have the factory Brembo setup installed with PMU Club racer pads, alongside some TRD mounts and an oil cooler. Already binned off the standard wheels for some light weight advans with Cup2's on them so will be interesting to see how they do.
The suspension is going to remain standard as I'd like to see what it's like before I start changing stuff. Ironically I bought a set of KW V3's in the winter sale, but really they need some more supporting bits to get the most out of them.
It's a bit much but I want to make sure the car can stop, not get too hot and also to take out the slack from the drivetrain which even on the road is fairly noticeable. The TRD mounts seem to be the ideal solution as they are rubber but just a stiffer grade than the oem ones. I ran similar TRD engine mounts on the MR2 and they didn't really make the NVH worse on the road, so I'm hoping it will be the same in this case.
Haven't booked anything yet, but I'm going to go with my pal who has a BBR 200 Mapped NC MX5, which performance wise is pretty well matched for the 86. When I had the MR2 I'd always just blow by him because of the power difference of the turbo.
It's off to abbey motorsport this weekend to have the factory Brembo setup installed with PMU Club racer pads, alongside some TRD mounts and an oil cooler. Already binned off the standard wheels for some light weight advans with Cup2's on them so will be interesting to see how they do.
The suspension is going to remain standard as I'd like to see what it's like before I start changing stuff. Ironically I bought a set of KW V3's in the winter sale, but really they need some more supporting bits to get the most out of them.
It's a bit much but I want to make sure the car can stop, not get too hot and also to take out the slack from the drivetrain which even on the road is fairly noticeable. The TRD mounts seem to be the ideal solution as they are rubber but just a stiffer grade than the oem ones. I ran similar TRD engine mounts on the MR2 and they didn't really make the NVH worse on the road, so I'm hoping it will be the same in this case.
Haven't booked anything yet, but I'm going to go with my pal who has a BBR 200 Mapped NC MX5, which performance wise is pretty well matched for the 86. When I had the MR2 I'd always just blow by him because of the power difference of the turbo.
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