Cost of Living in Schwyz / Zug
Discussion
Hello
Anyone out there live in Schwyz or Zug? I'm looking at roles in these two areas. In terms of living a 'comfortable' life, any ideas on what would be a reasonable salary?
By 'comfortable life' I mean: 4 bed house, 160-200m2, top-end 3 series or similar and supporting wife and 2 kids (they will probably go to State school).
The roles I have been looking at have been in the 160k - 200k CHF range. Any idea what this would equate to net (there seems to be low tax rates in these Cantons)?
And also, would this be sufficient to live a 'comfortable' life (see above) in either of these areas?
Any comments / help / thoughts most welcome. I've also been looking on englishforums.ch, but would appreciate a PH view also!
cheers,
UV
Anyone out there live in Schwyz or Zug? I'm looking at roles in these two areas. In terms of living a 'comfortable' life, any ideas on what would be a reasonable salary?
By 'comfortable life' I mean: 4 bed house, 160-200m2, top-end 3 series or similar and supporting wife and 2 kids (they will probably go to State school).
The roles I have been looking at have been in the 160k - 200k CHF range. Any idea what this would equate to net (there seems to be low tax rates in these Cantons)?
And also, would this be sufficient to live a 'comfortable' life (see above) in either of these areas?
Any comments / help / thoughts most welcome. I've also been looking on englishforums.ch, but would appreciate a PH view also!
cheers,
UV
Hi there
Quite a few of us live in the Canton of Zug as it happens. I can give you my general views on life here but others will be better equiped to advise on tax - I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment and each Canton sets its own tax rate. Anyway, here goes... quality of life here is excellent - particularly if you like outdoors kind of stuff - winter sports, walking, etc. Zug is a very small canton but there are a lot of expats here due to the low tax rates which have encouraged many companies to move here. Something like 20% of the population is from overseas. Because so many companies are here, housing is a real headache. In fact you will be unlikely to find a house, the Swiss don't really do the house thing so you're more likely to find an apartment. I think it would be fair to estimate that a 4 bed, 200sq m apartment would cost anywhere from CHF 4,500 per month, often a lot more - with companies paying the rent, landlords can command big money. The good thing is that the standard of housing is generally quite high and well maintained. A quick look at http://www.comparis.ch/immobilien/intro.aspx will help you get an idea.
In terms of location, there are lots of nice places in the canton - Zug itself is expensive - the old town is beautifully picturesque but it comes at a price which generally excludes parking! There are lots of lovely villages in the surrounding area, with cheaper housing.
I hear that many local schools are very good - obviously if you 'go local' your children will need to pick up Swiss Deutsch - great in terms of making local friends and integrating, more difficult if they need help with school work if you don't speak German or SD - if you do then you have a massive advantage. Many if not most expats send their children to the local International Schools. We have one little boy at international kindergarten with which we are very happy.
The weekly shop is also considerably more expensive than the UK - for our family of 3 I spend on average between CHF 300 to CHF 400 per week though i'm sure there are people who manage to spend less than me!
Overall, we really like our life here. We have found the local people very friendly and welcoming. Some things are quite old fashioned, in farming areas it's a bit like to UK twenty years ago, it can be frustrating (shops in small towns shut from 12.00 to 1.30 and sometimes 2pm), but I've grown to appreciate the peace & quiet and the cow bells. Switzerland is clean and very well organised - i know some might think that it socially over controlled, but it does work very well with a real sense of community and social responsibility.
Hope this helps with your thought process. Let me know if you have any other Zug questions, i'm more than happy to try & help.
GillyD
Quite a few of us live in the Canton of Zug as it happens. I can give you my general views on life here but others will be better equiped to advise on tax - I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment and each Canton sets its own tax rate. Anyway, here goes... quality of life here is excellent - particularly if you like outdoors kind of stuff - winter sports, walking, etc. Zug is a very small canton but there are a lot of expats here due to the low tax rates which have encouraged many companies to move here. Something like 20% of the population is from overseas. Because so many companies are here, housing is a real headache. In fact you will be unlikely to find a house, the Swiss don't really do the house thing so you're more likely to find an apartment. I think it would be fair to estimate that a 4 bed, 200sq m apartment would cost anywhere from CHF 4,500 per month, often a lot more - with companies paying the rent, landlords can command big money. The good thing is that the standard of housing is generally quite high and well maintained. A quick look at http://www.comparis.ch/immobilien/intro.aspx will help you get an idea.
In terms of location, there are lots of nice places in the canton - Zug itself is expensive - the old town is beautifully picturesque but it comes at a price which generally excludes parking! There are lots of lovely villages in the surrounding area, with cheaper housing.
I hear that many local schools are very good - obviously if you 'go local' your children will need to pick up Swiss Deutsch - great in terms of making local friends and integrating, more difficult if they need help with school work if you don't speak German or SD - if you do then you have a massive advantage. Many if not most expats send their children to the local International Schools. We have one little boy at international kindergarten with which we are very happy.
The weekly shop is also considerably more expensive than the UK - for our family of 3 I spend on average between CHF 300 to CHF 400 per week though i'm sure there are people who manage to spend less than me!
Overall, we really like our life here. We have found the local people very friendly and welcoming. Some things are quite old fashioned, in farming areas it's a bit like to UK twenty years ago, it can be frustrating (shops in small towns shut from 12.00 to 1.30 and sometimes 2pm), but I've grown to appreciate the peace & quiet and the cow bells. Switzerland is clean and very well organised - i know some might think that it socially over controlled, but it does work very well with a real sense of community and social responsibility.
Hope this helps with your thought process. Let me know if you have any other Zug questions, i'm more than happy to try & help.
GillyD
If you are looking at jobs for that kind of money then you will be very comfortable here indeed. If you live near central London then prices are comparable but the quality of the food here, especially the meat is not up to par IMO.
Come over and try the place. I cannot speak for Zug (I'm just outside Bern in a local village) but people are nice enough if a little set in their ways.
Come over and try the place. I cannot speak for Zug (I'm just outside Bern in a local village) but people are nice enough if a little set in their ways.
GillyD said:
lots of useful stuff - thanks
Thanks GillyApart from rent (say 4000CHF) and month, and shopping (say 1500CHF) a month, are there any other 'large' costs that I should budget for?
For example, is there any insurance that you need to buy?
Finally, any idea on tax? Its seems to be around 15kCHF on 150K income - does that sound right?
Also, international schools seem to be around 24kCHF per child per year for primary school! Is this right?
UV
You have to have health insurance which you have to pay for and is compulsory, for the 3 of us (2 adults and 1 child) it comes to about 450chf a month, but you can decide on what level of excess you want on your policy which affects how much you pay. If you are working your employer is supposed to pay for (I think) accident insurance for you, but you must sort out basic health insurance.
Our son (9 years old) goes to the local village school, and although he didn't speak any german when he moved out here about 3 years ago he learnt very quickly and is pretty much fluent now. The schools here in Zurich provide German lessons for non german speaking children, but I don't know about the schools in Zug. Our son had 5 hours of german a week for the first year, and now has 2 hours a week, but his teacher says he copes very well as it is. Neither myself or my husband spoke german when we moved out here, I am taking lessons, but it can be quite hard helping our son with his homework.
Another website to have a look for housing is www.homegate.ch they tend to have a good range of housing on there, we found both of our houses on there.
Our son (9 years old) goes to the local village school, and although he didn't speak any german when he moved out here about 3 years ago he learnt very quickly and is pretty much fluent now. The schools here in Zurich provide German lessons for non german speaking children, but I don't know about the schools in Zug. Our son had 5 hours of german a week for the first year, and now has 2 hours a week, but his teacher says he copes very well as it is. Neither myself or my husband spoke german when we moved out here, I am taking lessons, but it can be quite hard helping our son with his homework.
Another website to have a look for housing is www.homegate.ch they tend to have a good range of housing on there, we found both of our houses on there.
Edited by baker77 on Thursday 29th January 16:32
Hi there,
I think you might need to budget a bit more for international schooling, may be closer to 7,000chf per term. I think the schools are a bit more than the internatioal nursery which our son attends. Maybe check out the following or give them a call:
http://www.iszl.ch/
http://www.montana-zug.ch/
If you're not tied for tax reasons to schooling in Zug there are other options in Zurich etc, but I'm not expert as I don't have a school age child.
I suspect that you might have to budget a bit more for housing too - you really need an agent on your side. Much of the good stuff goes before it ever gets on the internet.
You will need insurance too however, this was sorted out by my husband's company - i will get him to post when he's back from his travels. You will also need health insurance - again, ours is provided by the company - maybe someone else can advise on this as I don't know who the local providers are.
You should probably pack the family onto a plane and have a look around and get a feel for the place. We had two 'look see' trips before we arrived. Hopefully whichever company you decide to join will be able to help you with a lot of this stuff.
As before, let me know if you need any more info.
Gilly D
I think you might need to budget a bit more for international schooling, may be closer to 7,000chf per term. I think the schools are a bit more than the internatioal nursery which our son attends. Maybe check out the following or give them a call:
http://www.iszl.ch/
http://www.montana-zug.ch/
If you're not tied for tax reasons to schooling in Zug there are other options in Zurich etc, but I'm not expert as I don't have a school age child.
I suspect that you might have to budget a bit more for housing too - you really need an agent on your side. Much of the good stuff goes before it ever gets on the internet.
You will need insurance too however, this was sorted out by my husband's company - i will get him to post when he's back from his travels. You will also need health insurance - again, ours is provided by the company - maybe someone else can advise on this as I don't know who the local providers are.
You should probably pack the family onto a plane and have a look around and get a feel for the place. We had two 'look see' trips before we arrived. Hopefully whichever company you decide to join will be able to help you with a lot of this stuff.
As before, let me know if you need any more info.
Gilly D
Hi there
Yes, Cham is very nice - it's a reasonably large town with good shopping facilities, on the rail network, etc. The other interesting thing is that i understand that there is a new international school opening there. http://www.internationalschoolswitzerland.ch/ I have no feedback on it but it might be of interest. Cham isn't the most picturesque of towns, though the older part is pretty. Nice thing is that a lot of residential places are really near Zug lake which is beautiful. The only downside of being at lake level is that in the Autumn/winter, when the fog tends to roll in, you can be sitting in freezing fog for days on end whereas up in the mountains you can gloat at the fog bound below!
Anyway, places to look for lake/mountain views: Walchwil, Oberwil, parts of Cham. For Aegeri See: Unterageri, Oberageri, Morgarten. For more rustic views: Allenwinden, areas around Albis - you have to be careful not to go over into Zurich Canton around here - but it's very pretty. Neuheim - the old part of the town is nice but the main road looks unpromising due a a large cement works on the outskirts of town - only when someone I know moved there did i realise that it's actually quite a nice little village. Alosen is also nice but quite rural and a bit far from Zug.
Other areas to look at because they are cheaper but less picturesque are: Baar - some of the old bits are nice but i'ts where a lot of offices have opened up so it can feel a bit industrial in places, but does have convenience on side. Steinhausen - not pretty but lots of residential areas and close to the motorway. Rotkreuz - I understand there's a lot of housing but it's not that popular with the expat population - i know quite a few people who have moved out from there which isn't a great recommendation but i don't know it very well.
Walchwil, mentioned earlier is well worth a look - lots of new developement going on there. It's pretty but it's also steep - set on the mountainside in the shadow of The Rigi (local mountain which the Swiss are very proud of). Some people find the closeness of the mountain a bit overpowering, but there seems to be a big expat community there. If i think of anywhere else, i'll let you know. Zug is a tiny Canton - smallest in Switzerland i think - so the choice isn't huge.
Needless to say, the best thing is to take a couple of days to have a look around the area and get a feel for the place. Also worth spending some time in Zurich and Luzern as they are to two closest cities (both very beautiful) with international restaurants etc.
The other thing to think about is transport. Driving here is good - no traffic jams, the most frustrating thing that happens is getting stuck behind a tractor for 6km's. However, depending on where you decide to live, you may well need two cars or your other half will be a bit isolated. Public transport is good but the standing at a bus stop in mid winter at -5 doesn't have much going for it!
Hope this helps.
Best Gilly
Yes, Cham is very nice - it's a reasonably large town with good shopping facilities, on the rail network, etc. The other interesting thing is that i understand that there is a new international school opening there. http://www.internationalschoolswitzerland.ch/ I have no feedback on it but it might be of interest. Cham isn't the most picturesque of towns, though the older part is pretty. Nice thing is that a lot of residential places are really near Zug lake which is beautiful. The only downside of being at lake level is that in the Autumn/winter, when the fog tends to roll in, you can be sitting in freezing fog for days on end whereas up in the mountains you can gloat at the fog bound below!
Anyway, places to look for lake/mountain views: Walchwil, Oberwil, parts of Cham. For Aegeri See: Unterageri, Oberageri, Morgarten. For more rustic views: Allenwinden, areas around Albis - you have to be careful not to go over into Zurich Canton around here - but it's very pretty. Neuheim - the old part of the town is nice but the main road looks unpromising due a a large cement works on the outskirts of town - only when someone I know moved there did i realise that it's actually quite a nice little village. Alosen is also nice but quite rural and a bit far from Zug.
Other areas to look at because they are cheaper but less picturesque are: Baar - some of the old bits are nice but i'ts where a lot of offices have opened up so it can feel a bit industrial in places, but does have convenience on side. Steinhausen - not pretty but lots of residential areas and close to the motorway. Rotkreuz - I understand there's a lot of housing but it's not that popular with the expat population - i know quite a few people who have moved out from there which isn't a great recommendation but i don't know it very well.
Walchwil, mentioned earlier is well worth a look - lots of new developement going on there. It's pretty but it's also steep - set on the mountainside in the shadow of The Rigi (local mountain which the Swiss are very proud of). Some people find the closeness of the mountain a bit overpowering, but there seems to be a big expat community there. If i think of anywhere else, i'll let you know. Zug is a tiny Canton - smallest in Switzerland i think - so the choice isn't huge.
Needless to say, the best thing is to take a couple of days to have a look around the area and get a feel for the place. Also worth spending some time in Zurich and Luzern as they are to two closest cities (both very beautiful) with international restaurants etc.
The other thing to think about is transport. Driving here is good - no traffic jams, the most frustrating thing that happens is getting stuck behind a tractor for 6km's. However, depending on where you decide to live, you may well need two cars or your other half will be a bit isolated. Public transport is good but the standing at a bus stop in mid winter at -5 doesn't have much going for it!
Hope this helps.
Best Gilly
Hi Neil
Tax rates here are pretty low and do vary depending on where you live and your circumstances (eg. if your employer has achieved certain tax rulings with the canton). Tax is also levied at federal, cantonal and local level and the combination of all these applied to your income in effect. But I think you'd be pushed for it to be much above 20% in Zug and probably a lot less in my experience - best talk to the companies you're looking at. It gets more complicated when you start adding in pensions, share options and the like. There is plenty of general stuff on the web. One other thing to note, there is the wealth tax also, a small % of your total worldwide net assets (like 0.5-1%). Some companies agree to pay this up to certain limits. The nice flip side on wealth tax is no capital gains tax. If you get an expat deal then you're largely untroubled by the tax anyway, they usually tax equalise you so in effect you get paid as though you were paying UK tax but also with a cost of living adjustment.
Good luck - and let us know if you are over here at any point, we'd be happy to show you around.
There is another PHer on here who lives in Cham. He loves it, I think it is full of chavs like him
Best place is Oberaegeri!
Andrew
Tax rates here are pretty low and do vary depending on where you live and your circumstances (eg. if your employer has achieved certain tax rulings with the canton). Tax is also levied at federal, cantonal and local level and the combination of all these applied to your income in effect. But I think you'd be pushed for it to be much above 20% in Zug and probably a lot less in my experience - best talk to the companies you're looking at. It gets more complicated when you start adding in pensions, share options and the like. There is plenty of general stuff on the web. One other thing to note, there is the wealth tax also, a small % of your total worldwide net assets (like 0.5-1%). Some companies agree to pay this up to certain limits. The nice flip side on wealth tax is no capital gains tax. If you get an expat deal then you're largely untroubled by the tax anyway, they usually tax equalise you so in effect you get paid as though you were paying UK tax but also with a cost of living adjustment.
Good luck - and let us know if you are over here at any point, we'd be happy to show you around.
There is another PHer on here who lives in Cham. He loves it, I think it is full of chavs like him
Best place is Oberaegeri!
Andrew
Drop me a line if you fancy. If you're already over it might be a good idea to meet up with some recent expats. I moved to Switzerland last year. Lived in Zug originally on my own before the family moved over and now live in canton Zurich (Wadenswil), 15km from Zug. Yes tax is lower than UK, unless you had a Ltd company, but generally everything is more expensive. Rent is bl00dy expensive in Zug so i looked in canton zurich where rental is generally cheaper but, as another posted mentioned, cantonal tax is higher in zurich. We wanted a house rather than an apartment which reduced the number of opportunities. I have two kids (7 year old in 2nd grade and 4 year old in pre-K) at the International School of Zug & Lucern. Total school fees and add-ons work out about 30000CHF per child a year. Brought two cars over (XC90 and Chimaera) - XC90 was 4000CHF to convert to CH and Chimaera about 2000CHF. Then there is the winter tyres needed for snow. Car insurance was about 25% higher than the UK (more now pound has dropped). You'll also need the Compulsory Health insurance - costs us (two adults and 3 sprogs) 800CHF a month for a basic coverage.
If you can negotiate with your employer get these included in a relocation package. Note - you pay tax on any school fees paid by the company
If you can negotiate with your employer get these included in a relocation package. Note - you pay tax on any school fees paid by the company
All
Thanks for the help so far. I'll be looking in Zug or Schwyz and will probably aim to get the kids into the international school in Zug. I'm still going through the interview process for the job, so will know more in a couple of weeks.
So far, I'm budgeting around 4500CHF for rent (for a 4 bed house or flat, around 170sq ft), around 1600CHF for food per month, and 30k CHF per child for schooling as the main costs. It looks like my potential employer will pay insurance and contribute to the school fees, which is good.
If things go ahead, I'll look in Zug, Cham and the villages mentioned by Gilly... any other suggestions (especially) in Canton Schwyz most welcome.. I may well PM a few PHers to get the insiders view, when things move forward.
I checked on a tax calculator on one of the sites, and it looks like Zug and Schwyz have an income tax of around 10%, which seems fantastically low... is this correct?
One final question... my wife wants a dog as a precondition for the move! Any ideas if this will cause any problems?
thanks
Neil
Thanks for the help so far. I'll be looking in Zug or Schwyz and will probably aim to get the kids into the international school in Zug. I'm still going through the interview process for the job, so will know more in a couple of weeks.
So far, I'm budgeting around 4500CHF for rent (for a 4 bed house or flat, around 170sq ft), around 1600CHF for food per month, and 30k CHF per child for schooling as the main costs. It looks like my potential employer will pay insurance and contribute to the school fees, which is good.
If things go ahead, I'll look in Zug, Cham and the villages mentioned by Gilly... any other suggestions (especially) in Canton Schwyz most welcome.. I may well PM a few PHers to get the insiders view, when things move forward.
I checked on a tax calculator on one of the sites, and it looks like Zug and Schwyz have an income tax of around 10%, which seems fantastically low... is this correct?
One final question... my wife wants a dog as a precondition for the move! Any ideas if this will cause any problems?
thanks
Neil
Neil, on the dog front I assume you're considering getting it once moved as the costs to transport are quite high unless you do it yourself - which only adds to the stress of a family relocation. There are various rules and regs which vary canton by canton - Zug is quite liberal and I think you can have any dog you'd have in the UK and let it off the lead when walking in the hills etc. From memory I think the French cantons are more strict (always on lead, some breeds must pass an obedience test, etc). Adding to the argument to buy locally, some breed with docked tails etc are controlled, you must prove you've owned for a period (6 months?) prior to bringing in. There is a yahoo group Dogs-in-switzerland with some very knowledgeable people. Englishforum also a good source of info.
Your wife is wise to want a dog - the walking is brilliant and I know Gilly loves taking our mutt high up above the lake for breathtaking views every day. She meets lots of locals this way also.
Andrew
Your wife is wise to want a dog - the walking is brilliant and I know Gilly loves taking our mutt high up above the lake for breathtaking views every day. She meets lots of locals this way also.
Andrew
Just to add a bit of info to Andrew's on the dog front. If you do get a dog here in Switzerland, you have to undertake a certain number of hours of training with it. This has been Federal law since around September. If you do bring a dog from the UK, you wouldn't have to do the training (i don't think), but obviously you will need to sort out a pet passport. Upon arrival you must declare yourself at a local vet and get the dog registered on ANIS (animal identification service). Needless to say there is a dog tax but it's not that much money. From a housing perspective, like anywhere, some landlords are fine with dogs, others aren't. Some take kids, some don't. Some will take dogs but not kids - the variety is endless! You'll find a lot of info in Enlish Forum under the thread 'Federal Dog Control Legislation'
Best Gilly
Best Gilly
Based on 175k heres the tax rate your looking at (numbers are from here: http://tools.netcetera.ch/bin/tributtools/taxcomp-...
Einkommenssteuer Bund: = Income tax central govt (bund)
Einkommenssteuer Kanton: = Income tax county (Kanton)
Einkommenssteuer Gemeinde:= Income tax local govt / Town (Gemeinde)
Einkommenssteuer Kirche: = Church Tax (Kirche)
Vermögenssteuern: = Wealth Tax (Vermögen)
1. Wohngemeinde: Schwyz SZ
Die Einkommenssteuern für die Wohngemeinde Schwyz SZ betragen 19'477 CHF und setzen sich wie folgt zusammen:
Einkommenssteuer Bund: 5'702 CHF
Einkommenssteuer Kanton: 4'862 CHF
Einkommenssteuer Gemeinde: 8'913 CHF
Einkommenssteuer Kirche: 0 CHF
Vermögenssteuern: 0 CHF
2. Wohngemeinde: Zug ZG
Die Einkommenssteuern für die Wohngemeinde Zug ZG betragen 16'964 CHF und setzen sich wie folgt zusammen:
Einkommenssteuer Bund: 5'702 CHF
Einkommenssteuer Kanton: 6'304 CHF
Einkommenssteuer Gemeinde: 4'843 CHF
Einkommenssteuer Kirche: 0 CHF
Vermögenssteuern: 0 CHF
Another thing to bear in mind is when renting the usual rule in CH is that your Monthly rent cant exceed more than One Third of your income.
Einkommenssteuer Bund: = Income tax central govt (bund)
Einkommenssteuer Kanton: = Income tax county (Kanton)
Einkommenssteuer Gemeinde:= Income tax local govt / Town (Gemeinde)
Einkommenssteuer Kirche: = Church Tax (Kirche)
Vermögenssteuern: = Wealth Tax (Vermögen)
1. Wohngemeinde: Schwyz SZ
Die Einkommenssteuern für die Wohngemeinde Schwyz SZ betragen 19'477 CHF und setzen sich wie folgt zusammen:
Einkommenssteuer Bund: 5'702 CHF
Einkommenssteuer Kanton: 4'862 CHF
Einkommenssteuer Gemeinde: 8'913 CHF
Einkommenssteuer Kirche: 0 CHF
Vermögenssteuern: 0 CHF
2. Wohngemeinde: Zug ZG
Die Einkommenssteuern für die Wohngemeinde Zug ZG betragen 16'964 CHF und setzen sich wie folgt zusammen:
Einkommenssteuer Bund: 5'702 CHF
Einkommenssteuer Kanton: 6'304 CHF
Einkommenssteuer Gemeinde: 4'843 CHF
Einkommenssteuer Kirche: 0 CHF
Vermögenssteuern: 0 CHF
Another thing to bear in mind is when renting the usual rule in CH is that your Monthly rent cant exceed more than One Third of your income.
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