Switzerland residency
Discussion
Looking for a bit of local insight if possible..
We’re currently French residents, we’ve been working on a long project that comes to an end shortly and we’ve always said we wouldnt stay in france for winters (rural france in winter is dead)
We’ve always wanted a lake house and have loved Switzerland and its people when we’ve travelled through, with the obvious tax benefits of certain cantons + capital gains being zero, this certainly has spiked out interest in building / renovating there.
spending 10 days in Luzern area as of next week and we noticed that this Canton has a particularly low tax, any prominent reason for this?
As an expat, how do you find it on the whole through winter? is the place still lively into the evening? is travelling to neighbouring countries normally fairly simple (covid aside)
Are there hidden taxes that we’re not seeing? also noted there are ‘over the age of 55’ restrictions for residency, my wife is but i’m not, is it based on the males age?
Any areas to avoid?
Bit of a ramble opener i know, sorry, just wanted to get a conversation started and its very early days on thoughts..
Any help appreciated
We’re currently French residents, we’ve been working on a long project that comes to an end shortly and we’ve always said we wouldnt stay in france for winters (rural france in winter is dead)
We’ve always wanted a lake house and have loved Switzerland and its people when we’ve travelled through, with the obvious tax benefits of certain cantons + capital gains being zero, this certainly has spiked out interest in building / renovating there.
spending 10 days in Luzern area as of next week and we noticed that this Canton has a particularly low tax, any prominent reason for this?
As an expat, how do you find it on the whole through winter? is the place still lively into the evening? is travelling to neighbouring countries normally fairly simple (covid aside)
Are there hidden taxes that we’re not seeing? also noted there are ‘over the age of 55’ restrictions for residency, my wife is but i’m not, is it based on the males age?
Any areas to avoid?
Bit of a ramble opener i know, sorry, just wanted to get a conversation started and its very early days on thoughts..
Any help appreciated
Edited by LeroyLoser on Thursday 14th October 11:28
Swiss taxation works at multiple levels with federal, cantonal, communal level taxes being the main three. The Cantons & Communes set their own levels of taxation according to their circumstances, so they do vary quite a lot. We do have taxes on property value gains, it's just not called capital gains according to the Swiss definition, see https://www.ch.ch/en/property-gains-tax/
LeroyLoser said:
Looking for a bit of local insight if possible..
We’re currently French residents, we’ve been working on a long project that comes to an end shortly and we’ve always said we wouldnt stay in france for winters (rural france in winter is dead)
We’ve always wanted a lake house and have loved Switzerland and its people when we’ve travelled through, with the obvious tax benefits of certain cantons + capital gains being zero, this certainly has spiked out interest in building / renovating there.
spending 10 days in Luzern area as of next week and we noticed that this Canton has a particularly low tax, any prominent reason for this?
As an expat, how do you find it on the whole through winter? is the place still lively into the evening? is travelling to neighbouring countries normally fairly simple (covid aside)
Are there hidden taxes that we’re not seeing? also noted there are ‘over the age of 55’ restrictions for residency, my wife is but i’m not, is it based on the males age?
Any areas to avoid?
Bit of a ramble opener i know, sorry, just wanted to get a conversation started and its very early days on thoughts..
Any help appreciated
Basel resident here, moved from the UK at the beginning of the year. A couple of points to note:We’re currently French residents, we’ve been working on a long project that comes to an end shortly and we’ve always said we wouldnt stay in france for winters (rural france in winter is dead)
We’ve always wanted a lake house and have loved Switzerland and its people when we’ve travelled through, with the obvious tax benefits of certain cantons + capital gains being zero, this certainly has spiked out interest in building / renovating there.
spending 10 days in Luzern area as of next week and we noticed that this Canton has a particularly low tax, any prominent reason for this?
As an expat, how do you find it on the whole through winter? is the place still lively into the evening? is travelling to neighbouring countries normally fairly simple (covid aside)
Are there hidden taxes that we’re not seeing? also noted there are ‘over the age of 55’ restrictions for residency, my wife is but i’m not, is it based on the males age?
Any areas to avoid?
Bit of a ramble opener i know, sorry, just wanted to get a conversation started and its very early days on thoughts..
Any help appreciated
Edited by LeroyLoser on Thursday 14th October 11:28
The general area of Luzern, Zug and Schwyz all have very low cantonal tax rates, but you also must consider additional taxes (such as gemeinde / community) to get the full picture.
Typically the cost of rental or property in low tax cantons is higher, not to the point of providing equilibrium across Switzerland but its another thing to consider.
Travel to neighbouring countries is very easy, on the train you'll notice no difference unless they conduct a random control check. It's never happened to me. Driving to France or Germany you could get checked occasionally, less so with the Italian crossing in my experience.
Cost of building a house is eye-wateringly expensive, its my understanding that 1M Fr doesn't go too far!
Luzern is generally busy most of the year, its a big touristic draw, Zug and Schwyz not so much, they can be positively bleak at times, but you'll always have the backdrop of the alps which never, ever get old looking at.
There aren't really any 'bad' areas, its all relative. For the area you're thinking of its easy access to the Gotthard, into Ticino and also not too far from Interlaken region.
Luzern isn‘t particularly low taxation, although I think some of the villages on the eastern side of the lake are (Meggis and Weggen for example). As mentioned Zug and (parts of) Schwyz are the main places with low income taxes, as well as Obwalden and Nidwalden, which are near Luzern. As mentioned you need to look at it on a village by village basis though. Schwyz is also interesting for zero gift and inheritance tax, but you have to be careful with the Napoleonic based inheritance priority (which you are probably aware of being French resident). Not sure whether the others are the same.
Do you have EU citizenship? If not, it isn‘t as easy to get residency. I gather from other threads that you wouldn‘t be working. You will have to be able to prove that you have the means to support yourself and never become a burden on the state - essentially that you are independently wealthy. Your idea of what that means and the Swiss definition may vary! If you do fall into that category, then certain cantons mainly on the French side will negotiate a tax rate with you - normally basing it on a multiple of your annual rent (or imputed rental value). If that‘s the case though, you need to be talking to a specialist, rather than canvassing opinion on PH
There is also the issue of social security. If you aren‘t working then the SS contributions are based on your wealth. Additionally, there is wealth tax, which is generally measured in pro-mille rather per cent. I wouldn’t worry about the capital gains on property mentioned in the second post. It‘s only an issue when you sell the property.
Getting out of the country is a doddle. Public transport lives up to its world famous reputation and Zurich airport is well connected by train and stereotypically efficient. Forget about budget airlines from there though and the range of long haul tourist destinations (particularly the Caribbean) is not great. Budget airlines fly from Basel and Geneva.
I certainly wouldn‘t buy in Switzerland until I was sure that I want to stay. Some people love it, some people hate it. Normally after 2 years you either want out or are in for the long term. That‘s when I would consider buying. I can‘t see you ever getting building land in a prime location and it would be hideously expensive if you could, as is building work. We‘ve been here 12 years and bought 4 years ago. Our plan is to sell up in 10 years and move to Spain for better weather, quality of life and purchasing power (even after tax it will be much higher).
A bit of a stream of consciousness post, but without knowing more details, it‘s hard to be more specific.
Do you have EU citizenship? If not, it isn‘t as easy to get residency. I gather from other threads that you wouldn‘t be working. You will have to be able to prove that you have the means to support yourself and never become a burden on the state - essentially that you are independently wealthy. Your idea of what that means and the Swiss definition may vary! If you do fall into that category, then certain cantons mainly on the French side will negotiate a tax rate with you - normally basing it on a multiple of your annual rent (or imputed rental value). If that‘s the case though, you need to be talking to a specialist, rather than canvassing opinion on PH
There is also the issue of social security. If you aren‘t working then the SS contributions are based on your wealth. Additionally, there is wealth tax, which is generally measured in pro-mille rather per cent. I wouldn’t worry about the capital gains on property mentioned in the second post. It‘s only an issue when you sell the property. Getting out of the country is a doddle. Public transport lives up to its world famous reputation and Zurich airport is well connected by train and stereotypically efficient. Forget about budget airlines from there though and the range of long haul tourist destinations (particularly the Caribbean) is not great. Budget airlines fly from Basel and Geneva.
I certainly wouldn‘t buy in Switzerland until I was sure that I want to stay. Some people love it, some people hate it. Normally after 2 years you either want out or are in for the long term. That‘s when I would consider buying. I can‘t see you ever getting building land in a prime location and it would be hideously expensive if you could, as is building work. We‘ve been here 12 years and bought 4 years ago. Our plan is to sell up in 10 years and move to Spain for better weather, quality of life and purchasing power (even after tax it will be much higher).
A bit of a stream of consciousness post, but without knowing more details, it‘s hard to be more specific.
Thanks guys, some very interesting info, i’ll respond properly when we’re settled..
we’re en route to Lucern currently, sitting in Beaune, wandering which route to take through swtitzerland? Any suggestions? or are they all pas pretty as each other…
Checking in to the Burgenstock so the south side of the lake, google maps is showing in on the A36 then drop down on A35
we’re en route to Lucern currently, sitting in Beaune, wandering which route to take through swtitzerland? Any suggestions? or are they all pas pretty as each other…
Checking in to the Burgenstock so the south side of the lake, google maps is showing in on the A36 then drop down on A35
Well, ended up on motorways getting in to Burgenstock, first impressions werent the best, not sure i was in very receptive mood that day after dinner celerbrations the night before so i’ll cut it some slack..
Motorways were horrid vs the trip across france on the A89, they were slow, 100 / 120 limits with a fair few cameras, nose to tail traffic but good driving characteristics from the swiss plated people, motorways themselves are quite claustrophobic as many are ‘dug in’ to hide them (as we understand it now)
A small observation from the outset and not that meaningful as when living here i doubt we’d use them much but first impressions are created by these small things and arrival at the bugenstock resort compounded the ‘lots of people’ scenario we encountered on the way in.
Going to venture out today in this glorious weather, go hiking, then ferry to Lucern for a walk around, maybe car venture later depending on how busy everything looks by foot earlier.
The views are stunning from the hotel and we’d definitely want decent lake views, mountain facing and afternoon sun, thats established.
mosquito activity seems low to nothing in the months we’d be here, from what we’ve read, thoughts on this away from the tourist areas? (Most likely we’ll plump for a non tourist area due to people numbers here)
Tax - thanks for your input on this, from what i understand, if we base it on the highest rate then you’re looking at 45% with no CG on non property related gains (which is our concern). 45% saves us in excess of 1m p.a in tax vs france, so over the 3 years we’re looking at it is very much worth it, in addition to this we dont even have to live in switzerland all the time due to the relaxed border controls, our place in France will remain our home in our hearts & where we’ll spend most of our time tbh.
Just need to get out ourselves out there now and get a feel for the real switzerland away from this americanised resort…
Sorry for spilling our findings in this way but its my way of feeling my way through wether or not this will work, any more input from you guys on where to and what to see is much appreciated
ETA: french tax residents but still Uk citizens
Motorways were horrid vs the trip across france on the A89, they were slow, 100 / 120 limits with a fair few cameras, nose to tail traffic but good driving characteristics from the swiss plated people, motorways themselves are quite claustrophobic as many are ‘dug in’ to hide them (as we understand it now)
A small observation from the outset and not that meaningful as when living here i doubt we’d use them much but first impressions are created by these small things and arrival at the bugenstock resort compounded the ‘lots of people’ scenario we encountered on the way in.
Going to venture out today in this glorious weather, go hiking, then ferry to Lucern for a walk around, maybe car venture later depending on how busy everything looks by foot earlier.
The views are stunning from the hotel and we’d definitely want decent lake views, mountain facing and afternoon sun, thats established.
mosquito activity seems low to nothing in the months we’d be here, from what we’ve read, thoughts on this away from the tourist areas? (Most likely we’ll plump for a non tourist area due to people numbers here)
Tax - thanks for your input on this, from what i understand, if we base it on the highest rate then you’re looking at 45% with no CG on non property related gains (which is our concern). 45% saves us in excess of 1m p.a in tax vs france, so over the 3 years we’re looking at it is very much worth it, in addition to this we dont even have to live in switzerland all the time due to the relaxed border controls, our place in France will remain our home in our hearts & where we’ll spend most of our time tbh.
Just need to get out ourselves out there now and get a feel for the real switzerland away from this americanised resort…
Sorry for spilling our findings in this way but its my way of feeling my way through wether or not this will work, any more input from you guys on where to and what to see is much appreciated
ETA: french tax residents but still Uk citizens
Edited by LeroyLoser on Sunday 24th October 08:33
LeroyLoser said:
Well, ended up on motorways getting in to Burgenstock, first impressions werent the best, not sure i was in very receptive mood that day after dinner celerbrations the night before so i’ll cut it some slack..
Motorways were horrid vs the trip across france on the A89, they were slow, 100 / 120 limits with a fair few cameras, nose to tail traffic but good driving characteristics from the swiss plated people, motorways themselves are quite claustrophobic as many are ‘dug in’ to hide them (as we understand it now)
A small observation from the outset and not that meaningful as when living here i doubt we’d use them much but first impressions are created by these small things and arrival at the bugenstock resort compounded the ‘lots of people’ scenario we encountered on the way in.
Going to venture out today in this glorious weather, go hiking, then ferry to Lucern for a walk around, maybe car venture later depending on how busy everything looks by foot earlier.
The views are stunning from the hotel and we’d definitely want decent lake views, mountain facing and afternoon sun, thats established.
mosquito activity seems low to nothing in the months we’d be here, from what we’ve read, thoughts on this away from the tourist areas? (Most likely we’ll plump for a non tourist area due to people numbers here)
Tax - thanks for your input on this, from what i understand, if we base it on the highest rate then you’re looking at 45% with no CG on non property related gains (which is our concern). 45% saves us in excess of 1m p.a in tax vs france, so over the 3 years we’re looking at it is very much worth it, in addition to this we dont even have to live in switzerland all the time due to the relaxed border controls, our place in France will remain our home in our hearts & where we’ll spend most of our time tbh.
Just need to get out ourselves out there now and get a feel for the real switzerland away from this americanised resort…
Sorry for spilling our findings in this way but its my way of feeling my way through wether or not this will work, any more input from you guys on where to and what to see is much appreciated
ETA: french tax residents but still Uk citizens
Luzern is the cheapest place in Switzerland for corporate tax, not personal tax. As said above the actual amount is on a Gemeinde by Gemeinde basis. Comparis has a calculator: https://en.comparis.ch/steuern/steuervergleich/def...Motorways were horrid vs the trip across france on the A89, they were slow, 100 / 120 limits with a fair few cameras, nose to tail traffic but good driving characteristics from the swiss plated people, motorways themselves are quite claustrophobic as many are ‘dug in’ to hide them (as we understand it now)
A small observation from the outset and not that meaningful as when living here i doubt we’d use them much but first impressions are created by these small things and arrival at the bugenstock resort compounded the ‘lots of people’ scenario we encountered on the way in.
Going to venture out today in this glorious weather, go hiking, then ferry to Lucern for a walk around, maybe car venture later depending on how busy everything looks by foot earlier.
The views are stunning from the hotel and we’d definitely want decent lake views, mountain facing and afternoon sun, thats established.
mosquito activity seems low to nothing in the months we’d be here, from what we’ve read, thoughts on this away from the tourist areas? (Most likely we’ll plump for a non tourist area due to people numbers here)
Tax - thanks for your input on this, from what i understand, if we base it on the highest rate then you’re looking at 45% with no CG on non property related gains (which is our concern). 45% saves us in excess of 1m p.a in tax vs france, so over the 3 years we’re looking at it is very much worth it, in addition to this we dont even have to live in switzerland all the time due to the relaxed border controls, our place in France will remain our home in our hearts & where we’ll spend most of our time tbh.
Just need to get out ourselves out there now and get a feel for the real switzerland away from this americanised resort…
Sorry for spilling our findings in this way but its my way of feeling my way through wether or not this will work, any more input from you guys on where to and what to see is much appreciated
ETA: french tax residents but still Uk citizens
Edited by LeroyLoser on Sunday 24th October 08:33
This all changes if you are at a level (and income) where you can qualify for a negotiated tax settlement. This is possible in the majority of cantons, but not Zurich for example. This will provide a tax calculation on income earned outside Switzerland and is a perfect option if you're not earning from Swiss sources. A bunch of friends have this but we don't typically talk taxes / income / wealth so I don't know the details. If your CG levels will result in a 1m p.a. saving my hunch is that this might be an option. Personally I would be speaking to an accounting firm or your bank about your options.
For a negotiated approach you'd become a Swiss citizen, though not a Swiss national (I presume UK national). However the benefit of this arrangement is that for European travel (eg number of consecutive days allowed a year) you then fall into Swiss rules, not UK rules which at least for my friends is a huge benefit as they can stay in their Spanish homes for an unlimited time.
The downside is that they will require you to spend a certain number of days in your Swiss address. My best friend here I think spends the ski season and much of the summer which fits his agreement.
Thanks
It is uggly talking of tax etc but easier with the anonymity of a forum rather than friends..
There will actually be a payroll set up in switzerland, so essentially employed by a swiss company.
We’re back in france now, we scouted and observed as best we could whilst in Lucern and en route via Geneva on way home.
It turns out we dont want where we live in switzerland (i think we will) to be dictated by the different taxes tbh, even at your highest rate we are much better off and we dont like the highest tax rate areas of Zurich and Geneva.
We fell for Lucern and Interlaken, not so keen on being bang on the lake but back away a little so as to get a bit of land for the dogs, plus.. being up in Burgenstock we did notice that allot of the cloud and fog sat around the lake and most of the town but being slightly up the hill meant you had sun quicker in the day, is this usual for autumn / winter? though we’ll most likely use the property july / august to get away from the heat of france, possibly a mute point in that case.
It is uggly talking of tax etc but easier with the anonymity of a forum rather than friends..
There will actually be a payroll set up in switzerland, so essentially employed by a swiss company.
We’re back in france now, we scouted and observed as best we could whilst in Lucern and en route via Geneva on way home.
It turns out we dont want where we live in switzerland (i think we will) to be dictated by the different taxes tbh, even at your highest rate we are much better off and we dont like the highest tax rate areas of Zurich and Geneva.
We fell for Lucern and Interlaken, not so keen on being bang on the lake but back away a little so as to get a bit of land for the dogs, plus.. being up in Burgenstock we did notice that allot of the cloud and fog sat around the lake and most of the town but being slightly up the hill meant you had sun quicker in the day, is this usual for autumn / winter? though we’ll most likely use the property july / august to get away from the heat of france, possibly a mute point in that case.
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