Civic EP3 or ITR DC2
Discussion
Hi there this is my first post and was just after some information and thoughts on the two cars .
My Fiat coupe 20V Turbo Plus ( car is running 260 BHP & 265 LB/FT ) is for sale as i need something better on mpg as i have changed jobs and am doing more miles now .
After having an Accord type R for a few years i was thinking Something Honda again as i loved my ATR.
The two cars in question are on my short list along with a Leon Cupra R 225 ( Sorry
) and have a few questions about the two Honders.
I am after something as a daily drive and will be using the car for going to and from work on some nice B roads .
I like the CTR EP3 for an all-rounder but the one thing that i would like to know about the two cars is how different is the V-Tec change over between the two cars as in my old ATR the H22 engine had a very noticeable and aggressive change over that was amazing . After reading some information on the two i understand that the ITR DC2 is much the same as the ATR in its change over but how different is the EP3 Civic with its I-V-Tec ?
Also would a DC2 be to raw for a day to day car ?
Many Thanks for any information
Alan
My Fiat coupe 20V Turbo Plus ( car is running 260 BHP & 265 LB/FT ) is for sale as i need something better on mpg as i have changed jobs and am doing more miles now .
After having an Accord type R for a few years i was thinking Something Honda again as i loved my ATR.
The two cars in question are on my short list along with a Leon Cupra R 225 ( Sorry
) and have a few questions about the two Honders.I am after something as a daily drive and will be using the car for going to and from work on some nice B roads .
I like the CTR EP3 for an all-rounder but the one thing that i would like to know about the two cars is how different is the V-Tec change over between the two cars as in my old ATR the H22 engine had a very noticeable and aggressive change over that was amazing . After reading some information on the two i understand that the ITR DC2 is much the same as the ATR in its change over but how different is the EP3 Civic with its I-V-Tec ?
Also would a DC2 be to raw for a day to day car ?
Many Thanks for any information
Alan
When comparing standard cars, the change over on a DC2 is much more aggresive than it is on an EP3.
I run my DC2 as a daily and have for 3.5 years. I do around 45 miles a day using a mixture of different roads (including motorways) and just love it. I don't find it too raw at all but like anything, there are plenty of people that would do.
IMO the ATR will feel more like a DC2 than it will an EP3. Neither will feel much like your Fiat, but the LCR won't be far off and is easily mappable to the power of your current car.
I run my DC2 as a daily and have for 3.5 years. I do around 45 miles a day using a mixture of different roads (including motorways) and just love it. I don't find it too raw at all but like anything, there are plenty of people that would do.
IMO the ATR will feel more like a DC2 than it will an EP3. Neither will feel much like your Fiat, but the LCR won't be far off and is easily mappable to the power of your current car.
kaveney said:
After reading some information on the two i understand that the ITR DC2 is much the same as the ATR in its change over but how different is the EP3 Civic with its I-V-Tec ?
Sorry if this is a bit of a left-field idea but how about booking a test drive of each?
Welcome to the forums
I take it is much more smooth change over in the Civic EP3 then ?
I know that the two Honders are going to be nothing like the Coupe with little low down torque and all the power at hi revs. Just not sure i want a Dull 1.8T Vag engine ?
Alan
I know that the two Honders are going to be nothing like the Coupe with little low down torque and all the power at hi revs. Just not sure i want a Dull 1.8T Vag engine ?
Alan
Dave_ITR said:
When comparing standard cars, the change over on a DC2 is much more aggresive than it is on an EP3.
I run my DC2 as a daily and have for 3.5 years. I do around 45 miles a day using a mixture of different roads (including motorways) and just love it. I don't find it too raw at all but like anything, there are plenty of people that would do.
IMO the ATR will feel more like a DC2 than it will an EP3. Neither will feel much like your Fiat, but the LCR won't be far off and is easily mappable to the power of your current car.
I run my DC2 as a daily and have for 3.5 years. I do around 45 miles a day using a mixture of different roads (including motorways) and just love it. I don't find it too raw at all but like anything, there are plenty of people that would do.
IMO the ATR will feel more like a DC2 than it will an EP3. Neither will feel much like your Fiat, but the LCR won't be far off and is easily mappable to the power of your current car.
kaveney said:
I take it is much more smooth change over in the Civic EP3 then ?
The EP3 VTEC changeover "kick" is mapped in deliberately. The "kick" is actually a drop in power and torque, I am not sure why this is a favourable thing? A lot of people prefer aftermarket ECU solutions to get rid of it altogether.
The EP3 is a great all-rounder, but it is much more civilised than the DC2. The DC2 is raw and noisey but fantastic when shown a good road. As mentioned, it can get a little tiresome on long journeys at 70mph+.
If you're after a rewarding drive, then the Integra is the clear winner. But as an every day, practical proposition then the EP3 might be more suitable and it still has a cracking engine and gearbox. Having said that, I've been using a DC2 daily for a few months and it is actually more than capable in that regard, but the EP3 will be a bit easier to get kids in and out of, better for shopping, etc, if you need it to do that kind of thing.
Expect direct and accurate but light, numb steering in the EP3 (a real disappointment when I've driven them), and a car that's far less less playful than the Integra. But it's still a great car as long as you find a non-chavved one.
It's been said that the Accord Type R feels like a big Integra Type R, so if you're used to the ATR and liked it, and you can do without the extra few practicality points, I'd go for the DC2. Mine still makes me grin like an idiot and you don't need to be doing Warp Factor 9 for it to do so. The B-series engine in the DC2 has more character than the K-series in the EP3 - I had a DC5 with the K20a and it's a superb lump, but the B18 feels more like a living, breathing thing.
If you're after a rewarding drive, then the Integra is the clear winner. But as an every day, practical proposition then the EP3 might be more suitable and it still has a cracking engine and gearbox. Having said that, I've been using a DC2 daily for a few months and it is actually more than capable in that regard, but the EP3 will be a bit easier to get kids in and out of, better for shopping, etc, if you need it to do that kind of thing.
Expect direct and accurate but light, numb steering in the EP3 (a real disappointment when I've driven them), and a car that's far less less playful than the Integra. But it's still a great car as long as you find a non-chavved one.
It's been said that the Accord Type R feels like a big Integra Type R, so if you're used to the ATR and liked it, and you can do without the extra few practicality points, I'd go for the DC2. Mine still makes me grin like an idiot and you don't need to be doing Warp Factor 9 for it to do so. The B-series engine in the DC2 has more character than the K-series in the EP3 - I had a DC5 with the K20a and it's a superb lump, but the B18 feels more like a living, breathing thing.
The one thing that might put me off the DC2 is how different is the engine to the Civic 1.8 VTI-S as i have had the Civic VTI-S it was a total let down coming from the Accord type R the V-tec changeover was very poor and was two stage i think V-tec coming in @ 4000 rpm and then a throttle butterfly open in the inlet manifold @ 6250 rpm . Is the ITR engine the same in its working ?
Alan
Alan
Old Gregg said:
The EP3 is a great all-rounder, but it is much more civilised than the DC2. The DC2 is raw and noisey but fantastic when shown a good road. As mentioned, it can get a little tiresome on long journeys at 70mph+.
If you're after a rewarding drive, then the Integra is the clear winner. But as an every day, practical proposition then the EP3 might be more suitable and it still has a cracking engine and gearbox. Having said that, I've been using a DC2 daily for a few months and it is actually more than capable in that regard, but the EP3 will be a bit easier to get kids in and out of, better for shopping, etc, if you need it to do that kind of thing.
Expect direct and accurate but light, numb steering in the EP3 (a real disappointment when I've driven them), and a car that's far less less playful than the Integra. But it's still a great car as long as you find a non-chavved one.
It's been said that the Accord Type R feels like a big Integra Type R, so if you're used to the ATR and liked it, and you can do without the extra few practicality points, I'd go for the DC2. Mine still makes me grin like an idiot and you don't need to be doing Warp Factor 9 for it to do so. The B-series engine in the DC2 has more character than the K-series in the EP3 - I had a DC5 with the K20a and it's a superb lump, but the B18 feels more like a living, breathing thing.
If you're after a rewarding drive, then the Integra is the clear winner. But as an every day, practical proposition then the EP3 might be more suitable and it still has a cracking engine and gearbox. Having said that, I've been using a DC2 daily for a few months and it is actually more than capable in that regard, but the EP3 will be a bit easier to get kids in and out of, better for shopping, etc, if you need it to do that kind of thing.
Expect direct and accurate but light, numb steering in the EP3 (a real disappointment when I've driven them), and a car that's far less less playful than the Integra. But it's still a great car as long as you find a non-chavved one.
It's been said that the Accord Type R feels like a big Integra Type R, so if you're used to the ATR and liked it, and you can do without the extra few practicality points, I'd go for the DC2. Mine still makes me grin like an idiot and you don't need to be doing Warp Factor 9 for it to do so. The B-series engine in the DC2 has more character than the K-series in the EP3 - I had a DC5 with the K20a and it's a superb lump, but the B18 feels more like a living, breathing thing.
How do you mean ithought it was the second cam coming in ???
itsnotarace said:
The EP3 VTEC changeover "kick" is mapped in deliberately.
The "kick" is actually a drop in power and torque, I am not sure why this is a favourable thing? A lot of people prefer aftermarket ECU solutions to get rid of it altogether.
The "kick" is actually a drop in power and torque, I am not sure why this is a favourable thing? A lot of people prefer aftermarket ECU solutions to get rid of it altogether.
You can easily remap the EP3 to remove the VTEC kick when the cam rotates into high lift profile, so you just get better acceleration.
The "kick", as I mentioned earlier, was programmed in on purpose by Honda engineers to mimic the behaviour of the B series engines in the K20's. The K20 is a far more advanced engine.
The "kick", as I mentioned earlier, was programmed in on purpose by Honda engineers to mimic the behaviour of the B series engines in the K20's. The K20 is a far more advanced engine.
I have run a DC2 as my daily driver for 7 years. It has been fun, cheap to run and reliable. And I am still not bored of it.
The EP3 is more practical and faster in a straight line, but the DC2 is more fun.
I also ran a Fiat Coupe 20V Turbo from new. It was more comfortable and faster than the DC2, but the Honda is much more involving. On a track, the DC2 would leave the Coupe for dead.
The EP3 is more practical and faster in a straight line, but the DC2 is more fun.
I also ran a Fiat Coupe 20V Turbo from new. It was more comfortable and faster than the DC2, but the Honda is much more involving. On a track, the DC2 would leave the Coupe for dead.
kaveney said:
How do you mean ithought it was the second cam coming in ???
If you do a really good job of designing and setting up a variable valve timing system, the change over will be imperceptible - it's a matter of stitching two torque curves together as seamlessly as possible. If you don't, and you leave the changeover a bit rough, or if your marketing folks decide that it's good for punters to feel the changeover and have you put a little squiggle in the torque curve at the changeover point, then the change will be perceptible. The sudden change in torque will make the car feel quicker and more exciting, but it won't actually be quicker.Look at the green line just under 6000 rpm and see the little squiggle in the torque curve?
Totally different to your Civic 1.8 VTI-S mate, much more agressive, on par with the H series in the ATR if not more so
I'v had an EP3 then sold it for a DC2, then sold this for another DC2. I would say unless you're a health and safety freak, go for the DC2. It's just so much more involving/ rewarding to drive, looks better (IMO) and better fuel economy than the EP3.
Sounds like you need a passenger ride in one. Where are you? I'll take you out if you are around the Surrey/ Hants area
Lewis
I'v had an EP3 then sold it for a DC2, then sold this for another DC2. I would say unless you're a health and safety freak, go for the DC2. It's just so much more involving/ rewarding to drive, looks better (IMO) and better fuel economy than the EP3.
Sounds like you need a passenger ride in one. Where are you? I'll take you out if you are around the Surrey/ Hants area
Lewis
Thanks im in West sussex Barnham so a bit far but i will get a test drive of all the 3 before i make my mind up .
The aggressive change on the Accord type R was the thing that sold me on that and the lack of this on the Civic EP3 might be a dissepiment like the 1.8 VTI-S
Alan
The aggressive change on the Accord type R was the thing that sold me on that and the lack of this on the Civic EP3 might be a dissepiment like the 1.8 VTI-S
Alan
Lewtyper said:
Totally different to your Civic 1.8 VTI-S mate, much more agressive, on par with the H series in the ATR if not more so
I'v had an EP3 then sold it for a DC2, then sold this for another DC2. I would say unless you're a health and safety freak, go for the DC2. It's just so much more involving/ rewarding to drive, looks better (IMO) and better fuel economy than the EP3.
Sounds like you need a passenger ride in one. Where are you? I'll take you out if you are around the Surrey/ Hants area
Lewis
I'v had an EP3 then sold it for a DC2, then sold this for another DC2. I would say unless you're a health and safety freak, go for the DC2. It's just so much more involving/ rewarding to drive, looks better (IMO) and better fuel economy than the EP3.
Sounds like you need a passenger ride in one. Where are you? I'll take you out if you are around the Surrey/ Hants area
Lewis
itsnotarace said:
The EP3 is getting long in the tooth, but the DC2 is a 20 year old car now and it feels like it. An EP3 with an LSD is every bit as fun to drive as a DC2.
It absolutely is not. The EP3 is reasonable fun, very grippy, but not in the same league as the DC2 for ability and feedback. The suspension is hamfisted by comparison- over stiff for UK roads, over wheeled and over tyred, whilst the electric steering is not a patch on the Integra's system for talkativity.
Take both cars around a track and especially a bumpy B road, and you will find both very similar in pace. In the Integra you will feel like you're in a living machine, being given sensory input from ever contact point you have with the car. The road will flow at 2 tenths or 10 tenths and the purity of everything, from the done-before-you-thought-about-it throttle response to the way the small, well damped wheels deal with unexpected imperfections in the road, is what makes you realise this was not just a parts bin special designed by marketing teams.
In the EP3, the rawness isn't from purity of mechanical symphony; it's about the way Honda took the standard car, and bolted as quickly and cheaply as possible enough statistics to make the thing insanely marketable at its price. Whilst it's fun compared to its competitors, that as much down to the poor state of them than the excellence of it. The engine has a mass-production feel to it without any of the aural or right-foot-joy feel to it of the B Series efforts (including the early B16 versions, for that matter), the over-stiff setup means you're not experiencing any feel of enjoying the envelope of abilities without going far faster on the road than you ever should and the whole thing just feels contrived by comparison with the older car.
That is why the DC2 will forever be a front wheel drive legend, and the EP3 will be remembered as the Saxo VTR of its generation.
A limited slip diff does not fix the car.
I have driven both extensively thanks. The DC2 is incredibly dated.
And try and find one that a) hasn't been molested and b) has less than 100,000 miles on the clock
The DC2 is a good car, not denying that - but you are looking back through rose tinted specs
PS hi fellow ex-CTRO mod
And try and find one that a) hasn't been molested and b) has less than 100,000 miles on the clock
The DC2 is a good car, not denying that - but you are looking back through rose tinted specs
PS hi fellow ex-CTRO mod
Edited by itsnotarace on Thursday 14th April 15:42
itsnotarace said:
I have driven both extensively thanks. The DC2 is incredibly dated.
And try and find one that a) hasn't been molested and b) has less than 100,000 miles on the clock
The DC2 is a good car, not denying that - but you are looking back through rose tinted specs
PS hi fellow ex-CTRO mod
Don't forget I ran my EP3 for 125,000 miles and spent rather a lot of time in various modded ones, before moving on to the more 'dated' Integra, which as a driving tool was everything the Civic was not. If only I hadn't driven mine like a prick, beyond the limit on the road, I'd still be enjoying it now. It's actually testament to the Integra that despite the 90 degree yaw angle that day, it was totally recoverable without a hint of tank slapper about it- in the Civic the accident would have happened 40 metres earlier.And try and find one that a) hasn't been molested and b) has less than 100,000 miles on the clock
The DC2 is a good car, not denying that - but you are looking back through rose tinted specs
PS hi fellow ex-CTRO mod
Edited by itsnotarace on Thursday 14th April 15:42
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