Aaaaand the hunt for a car is over!

[sc4589]

Sealed the deal yesterday on (surprisingly!) my mum's old car.

She bought it a while back not fully knowing what it was, and has since gone back to a 1.4.

Please say herro...





Got it for an absolute steal, obviously. Insurance isn't so bad but a lot worse than the other cars I was considering... weirdly. Not sure why. It's hardly going to set the world on fire!

Love the engine, sounds very very nice even before required performance mods. Very practical (I'm a gigging musician, need the space) and it's a great place to be- blackout dials, lovely leather seats, soft touch plastics...

Very happy.

[Glosphil]

I've also got a Type-S (55 reg and now on 57K miles), but not so shiny as yours. It's obviously not as fast as a Tyre-R but not so manic and much faster than the 1.6 .

Not many Civics in Franch and never saw a Type-S in over 2000 miles. Great fun with French drivers (Megans, Lugunas, 307s, etc.) who attempted to overtake me and then realised that I was pulling away from them.

[Glosphil]

"required performance mods". What performance mods do you intend to fit? 160hp from a non-turbo 2-litre that only revs to 6800rpm is pretty good. Peak power is at 6500rpm. Whatever you do will certainly increase your insurance premium!

[itsnotarace]

sc4589 said:

Love the engine, sounds very very nice even before required performance mods.

Don't bother - it would be a waste of money

[sc4589]

Glosphil said:

I've also got a Type-S (55 reg and now on 57K miles), but not so shiny as yours. It's obviously not as fast as a Tyre-R but not so manic and much faster than the 1.6 .

Not many Civics in Franch and never saw a Type-S in over 2000 miles. Great fun with French drivers (Megans, Lugunas, 307s, etc.) who attempted to overtake me and then realised that I was pulling away from them.

"required performance mods". What performance mods do you intend to fit? 160hp from a non-turbo 2-litre that only revs to 6800rpm is pretty good. Peak power is at 6500rpm. Whatever you do will certainly increase your insurance premium!

Yeah, it's been a very relaxing and swift drive so far. Mum used to own a Type R, same mistake, and that was a very annoyingly focussed car- always seemed to want to be going very fast, rock-hard ride, drank petrol...

I am happy with the power but simply would like to add a proper, functioning induction kit (not a cone shoved next to the block) and a proper remap. That's it. I want to keep it for as long as possible, and that's all I want to change! And not for a while... because of insurance.

So far, very happy though. it's happy to either hoon or pad along. Had 45mpg out of it so far!

[Glosphil]

sc4589 said:

Glosphil said:

I've also got a Type-S (55 reg and now on 57K miles), but not so shiny as yours. It's obviously not as fast as a Tyre-R but not so manic and much faster than the 1.6 .

Not many Civics in Franch and never saw a Type-S in over 2000 miles. Great fun with French drivers (Megans, Lugunas, 307s, etc.) who attempted to overtake me and then realised that I was pulling away from them.

"required performance mods". What performance mods do you intend to fit? 160hp from a non-turbo 2-litre that only revs to 6800rpm is pretty good. Peak power is at 6500rpm. Whatever you do will certainly increase your insurance premium!

Yeah, it's been a very relaxing and swift drive so far. Mum used to own a Type R, same mistake, and that was a very annoyingly focussed car- always seemed to want to be going very fast, rock-hard ride, drank petrol...

I am happy with the power but simply would like to add a proper, functioning induction kit (not a cone shoved next to the block) and a proper remap. That's it. I want to keep it for as long as possible, and that's all I want to change! And not for a while... because of insurance.

So far, very happy though. it's happy to either hoon or pad along. Had 45mpg out of it so far!

Are there any remaps available for that engine? If so, what is the claimed power/torque boost? Might be interested myself. As I am somewhat older than you my insurance premium is currently under £200/year. 45mpg??? I trust you don't believe the mpg readout - it's notoriously inaccurate. Full tank to full tank over 2000 miles around France I averaged 38.1mpg - no hooning but driving at the limit where possible and a bit over on motorways.

[sc4589]

Glosphil said:

sc4589 said:

Glosphil said:

I've also got a Type-S (55 reg and now on 57K miles), but not so shiny as yours. It's obviously not as fast as a Tyre-R but not so manic and much faster than the 1.6 .

Not many Civics in Franch and never saw a Type-S in over 2000 miles. Great fun with French drivers (Megans, Lugunas, 307s, etc.) who attempted to overtake me and then realised that I was pulling away from them.

"required performance mods". What performance mods do you intend to fit? 160hp from a non-turbo 2-litre that only revs to 6800rpm is pretty good. Peak power is at 6500rpm. Whatever you do will certainly increase your insurance premium!

Yeah, it's been a very relaxing and swift drive so far. Mum used to own a Type R, same mistake, and that was a very annoyingly focussed car- always seemed to want to be going very fast, rock-hard ride, drank petrol...

I am happy with the power but simply would like to add a proper, functioning induction kit (not a cone shoved next to the block) and a proper remap. That's it. I want to keep it for as long as possible, and that's all I want to change! And not for a while... because of insurance.

So far, very happy though. it's happy to either hoon or pad along. Had 45mpg out of it so far!

Are there any remaps available for that engine? If so, what is the claimed power/torque boost? Might be interested myself. As I am somewhat older than you my insurance premium is currently under £200/year. 45mpg??? I trust you don't believe the mpg readout - it's notoriously inaccurate. Full tank to full tank over 2000 miles around France I averaged 38.1mpg - no hooning but driving at the limit where possible and a bit over on motorways.

There are remaps available for any engine with an ECU- ideally you should never have it just flashed anyway. A true remap will involve the car being put on a rolling road, the torque curve and power delivery will be measured. The rev range will then have flatspots ironed out of it. I used to work with induction & remapping, and induction was only truly effective when a remap was added to the equation- otherwise you just burnt shedloads of fuel. Anyhow, a proper remap will release (potentially) another 8-10bhp if you're lucky. All engines are different, and should be remapped individually. With induction, it would be closer to 15-18bhp for both, but as the engine is already performing at quite a high output it may be difficult. My old 206, which had a 1.1 engine, went from 59bhp to 72bhp after both a remap and induction. These were rolling road results, tested at a facility in Watford. I've seen 206 GTis with 140ish bhp as standard go to 160-165 with just remap and induction. There's a lot of potential for the torque to be increased, as it's a fairly torque-light engine. My educated guess is that it should get close to, if not better than, the Type R's output of 146lb/ft.

So in summary: 8-10bhp from a mapping, and around 10-15lb/ft.

It all depends how well the engine was mapped originally- if it's done for different markets, a universal map will be applied. This means that the engine performs adequately in any environment. A remap will hone it for the environment it's usually in (providing you don't export the car to Kuala Lampur or something!).

The 45mpg was achieved by a lot of freewheeling and not going above 3,000rpm... it's now down to 31.4mpg after a very, very healthy hoon along the roads here!

I have noticed the mpg readout is completely off- a full tank lasts around 330 miles or so, which leads me to believe it's around the 30mpg mark... unsure of this. Any input greatly appreciated. What do you average out of yours??

[Glosphil]

Thanks for the info regarding re-maps. Doesn't seem worth the expense to me. The performance is adequate for me as it is.

Since I bought the car I have recorded every petrol purchase. In just under 4 years and covering 46K miles the car has averaged 32.2mpg. It does up to 10 journeys of under 10 miles plus a trip of 55 miles each week. Sometime very month or so it does at least one trip of 110 miles each way. Also during the year it will do one trip to France of 1500-2000 miles and another 5 or so in the UK of 250+ miles. Honda claim an overall fuel consumption of 37.7mpg. On the longer journeys, driving at the speed limits when possible, but using up to 6000rpm for overtaking when necessary, the mpg display will show 38-39mpg. I reckon that the mpg display overreads by around 10%, so longer trips in the UK (part motorway and part A-road) probably really yield about 35mpg.

My previous car, a 2002 Accord 2.0 VTEC (147bp?), over 35K miles and very similar driving gave 31.5mpg.

[Revs_Addiction]

Like the new car, but I've got to laugh at this bit:

sc4589 said:

Mum used to own a Type R, same mistake, and that was a very annoyingly focussed car- always seemed to want to be going very fast, rock-hard ride, drank petrol...

What on earth were you expecting from a Type-R ?! The fact that the 'R' stands for Racing should have given you a clue!

The EP3 Type-R was one of the less extreme members of the Type-R family, but it was always going to be 'focussd', and the most extreme hot-hatch of that era ! Great fun, but not an ideal, 'mum' car!

[sc4589]

Revs_Addiction said:

Like the new car, but I've got to laugh at this bit:

sc4589 said:

Mum used to own a Type R, same mistake, and that was a very annoyingly focussed car- always seemed to want to be going very fast, rock-hard ride, drank petrol...

What on earth were you expecting from a Type-R ?! The fact that the 'R' stands for Racing should have given you a clue!

The EP3 Type-R was one of the less extreme members of the Type-R family, but it was always going to be 'focussd', and the most extreme hot-hatch of that era ! Great fun, but not an ideal, 'mum' car!

It was mum's choice, not mine! This was meant to be the ideal balance between the 1.4 pov spec and Type R's raw nature, but still a bit too much. All we've had is Civics since around 2002, we seem to be slowly working our way through the model range!

So after the next house move, both 1.4s are going and we'll be heading for the 1.6 and 1.7 diesel camps... she'll be happy one day! Tempted just to keep them all and collect a museum of EP/EU/EV Civics...

Glosphil said:

Thanks for the info regarding re-maps. Doesn't seem worth the expense to me. The performance is adequate for me as it is.

Since I bought the car I have recorded every petrol purchase. In just under 4 years and covering 46K miles the car has averaged 32.2mpg. It does up to 10 journeys of under 10 miles plus a trip of 55 miles each week. Sometime very month or so it does at least one trip of 110 miles each way. Also during the year it will do one trip to France of 1500-2000 miles and another 5 or so in the UK of 250+ miles. Honda claim an overall fuel consumption of 37.7mpg. On the longer journeys, driving at the speed limits when possible, but using up to 6000rpm for overtaking when necessary, the mpg display will show 38-39mpg. I reckon that the mpg display overreads by around 10%, so longer trips in the UK (part motorway and part A-road) probably really yield about 35mpg.

My previous car, a 2002 Accord 2.0 VTEC (147bp?), over 35K miles and very similar driving gave 31.5mpg.

No worries. There's a lot more to it than bare power/torque figures. Remaps can tailor the engine to your exact driving taste if you so wish. Economy is noted to go up as well, and the power delivery tends to be a lot more noticeable. I'd say it's worth it... but that's just me.

Suspect you're right on the overreading. I'll keep careful note from now on. Love the engine though.

[Glosphil]

Forget the Civic 1.7 diesel - it's a horible old 100hp Isuzu engine that was once used in Astras and Cavaliers! Noisy at speed, partly due to low gearing (for a diesel). I tried one back in 2006 and remember being disappointed.

Edited by Glosphil on Sunday 22 August 13:13

[sc4589]

Glosphil said:

Forget the Civic 1.7 diesel - it's a horible old 100hp Isuzu engine that was once used in Astras and Cavaliers! Noisy at speed, partly due to low gearing (for a diesel). I tried one back in 2006 and remember being disappointed.

Edited by Glosphil on Sunday 22 August 13:13

Thanks for that. Wonder why they didn't put a nice diesel in? I know they're rare for Hondas... shame they didn't put the 2.2 CTDi in it!

[Glosphil]

sc4589 said:

Glosphil said:

Forget the Civic 1.7 diesel - it's a horible old 100hp Isuzu engine that was once used in Astras and Cavaliers! Noisy at speed, partly due to low gearing (for a diesel). I tried one back in 2006 and remember being disappointed.

Edited by Glosphil on Sunday 22 August 13:13

Thanks for that. Wonder why they didn't put a nice diesel in? I know they're rare for Hondas... shame they didn't put the 2.2 CTDi in it!

Don't think the 2.2 CTDi engine was available until the current model Civic was introduced?

[sc4589]

Glosphil said:

sc4589 said:

Glosphil said:

Forget the Civic 1.7 diesel - it's a horible old 100hp Isuzu engine that was once used in Astras and Cavaliers! Noisy at speed, partly due to low gearing (for a diesel). I tried one back in 2006 and remember being disappointed.

Edited by Glosphil on Sunday 22 August 13:13

Thanks for that. Wonder why they didn't put a nice diesel in? I know they're rare for Hondas... shame they didn't put the 2.2 CTDi in it!

Don't think the 2.2 CTDi engine was available until the current model Civic was introduced?

They could have easily put it in the 2004 updated lineup. I have the advert for Hate Something, Change Something on DVD from Honda (no word of a lie! ) and it dates from 2003... I think. I'll have to check it out. Got the Cog advert on DVD from them too... seems their efforts to steal a young Honda fan worked all those years ago!

Either way, could be a great retrofit project at some point.

[Glosphil]

sc4589 said:

Glosphil said:

sc4589 said:

Glosphil said:

Forget the Civic 1.7 diesel - it's a horible old 100hp Isuzu engine that was once used in Astras and Cavaliers! Noisy at speed, partly due to low gearing (for a diesel). I tried one back in 2006 and remember being disappointed.

Edited by Glosphil on Sunday 22 August 13:13

Thanks for that. Wonder why they didn't put a nice diesel in? I know they're rare for Hondas... shame they didn't put the 2.2 CTDi in it!

Don't think the 2.2 CTDi engine was available until the current model Civic was introduced?

They could have easily put it in the 2004 updated lineup. I have the advert for Hate Something, Change Something on DVD from Honda (no word of a lie! ) and it dates from 2003... I think. I'll have to check it out. Got the Cog advert on DVD from them too... seems their efforts to steal a young Honda fan worked all those years ago!

Either way, could be a great retrofit project at some point.

You're right. The Honda 2.2 diesel was introduced in the Accord in October 2003.

[Danny S]

Glosphil said:

Forget the Civic 1.7 diesel - it's a horible old 100hp Isuzu engine that was once used in Astras and Cavaliers! Noisy at speed, partly due to low gearing (for a diesel). I tried one back in 2006 and remember being disappointed.

Edited by Glosphil on Sunday 22 August 13:13

Hmm, but the Isuzu one used in Vauxhalls are 65-75bhp?

[Glosphil]

Danny S said:

Glosphil said:

Forget the Civic 1.7 diesel - it's a horible old 100hp Isuzu engine that was once used in Astras and Cavaliers! Noisy at speed, partly due to low gearing (for a diesel). I tried one back in 2006 and remember being disappointed.

Edited by Glosphil on Sunday 22 August 13:13

Hmm, but the Isuzu one used in Vauxhalls are 65-75bhp?

The 2005 Honda Civic brochure of which I have a copy claims for the 1.7i CTDi diesel:

100ps@4400rpm 162ftlb/2800rpm

[sc4589]

Glosphil said:

Danny S said:

Glosphil said:

Forget the Civic 1.7 diesel - it's a horible old 100hp Isuzu engine that was once used in Astras and Cavaliers! Noisy at speed, partly due to low gearing (for a diesel). I tried one back in 2006 and remember being disappointed.

Edited by Glosphil on Sunday 22 August 13:13

Hmm, but the Isuzu one used in Vauxhalls are 65-75bhp?

The 2005 Honda Civic brochure of which I have a copy claims for the 1.7i CTDi diesel:

100ps@4400rpm 162ftlb/2800rpm

I have that brochure too!

Also, when it was used in the Cavalier I swear it had 82bhp..?

Still enjoying the car... nearly bought a Civic Type R head for it off eBay a little while ago.

[Glosphil]

sc4589 said:

Glosphil said:

Danny S said:

Glosphil said:

Forget the Civic 1.7 diesel - it's a horible old 100hp Isuzu engine that was once used in Astras and Cavaliers! Noisy at speed, partly due to low gearing (for a diesel). I tried one back in 2006 and remember being disappointed.

Edited by Glosphil on Sunday 22 August 13:13

Hmm, but the Isuzu one used in Vauxhalls are 65-75bhp?

The 2005 Honda Civic brochure of which I have a copy claims for the 1.7i CTDi diesel:

100ps@4400rpm 162ftlb/2800rpm

I have that brochure too!

Also, when it was used in the Cavalier I swear it had 82bhp..?

Still enjoying the car... nearly bought a Civic Type R head for it off eBay a little while ago.

A Type-R head on a Type-S engine! What do you expect to gain by that?

[sc4589]

Glosphil said:

sc4589 said:

Glosphil said:

Danny S said:

Glosphil said:

Forget the Civic 1.7 diesel - it's a horible old 100hp Isuzu engine that was once used in Astras and Cavaliers! Noisy at speed, partly due to low gearing (for a diesel). I tried one back in 2006 and remember being disappointed.

Edited by Glosphil on Sunday 22 August 13:13

Hmm, but the Isuzu one used in Vauxhalls are 65-75bhp?

The 2005 Honda Civic brochure of which I have a copy claims for the 1.7i CTDi diesel:

100ps@4400rpm 162ftlb/2800rpm

I have that brochure too!

Also, when it was used in the Cavalier I swear it had 82bhp..?

Still enjoying the car... nearly bought a Civic Type R head for it off eBay a little while ago.

A Type-R head on a Type-S engine! What do you expect to gain by that?

I did a little background reading into the whole thing, and it's apparently around 25bhp... which would have been rather enjoyable. However, the K20A3 unit fitted to our cars doesn't really like being revved over 7,200rpm, which is entirely understandable. To get the full potential, I would have needed to have bought uprated pistons at the same time... which were 4x the cost of the CTR head. I'd also have needed a Hondata K-Pro ECU management system, which is a cool £700.

So, thinking about it, I'd rather keep it as it is... the car has a large enough turn of speed to keep me happy, and I really don't think it needs any more power... at the moment.

If I keep the car for a seriously long period of time, I'd think about putting the K24 bottom end from an Accord Type S up against a K20A2 head from the EP3 Type R to create around 210bhp and 170-180lb/ft of torque. All expensive stuff though, my expenditure would work out being something like this:

- K24 bottom end: £800-£1200
- CTR head: £500 (the one I found was £92... you can see why I was tempted)
- K-Pro: £700

Plus all the labour of fitting these new bits, the frustration of getting them to work properly... will be something to consider if I really think it's worth it. Which it's probably not.