Discussion
Thought i would get some peoples opinions on here rather than the ITR forum.
Had my DC2 for about 9 months now, took it on track for the first time at Brands this weekend which was great fun! However i was slightly underwhelmed, i think it might be partly down the tyres (Hankook RS2s) but it didnt feel quite as responsive and planted as i would have liked.
I was on track with loads of MX5s and i was struggling through druids and clearways to get the power down and keep up with some of them on corner exit. Through the quicker corners like paddock, it had a good feel and balance.
So, I love the engine and gearbox, the rawness the general grip and handling but im now leaning towards something RWD, in theory then the S2000 should fit the bill? However i have heard mixed views particularly around the steering feel. Would it actually be a step forward, should i start tweeking the teg?
What are peoples thoughts? anyone who's driven both care to comment?
Had my DC2 for about 9 months now, took it on track for the first time at Brands this weekend which was great fun! However i was slightly underwhelmed, i think it might be partly down the tyres (Hankook RS2s) but it didnt feel quite as responsive and planted as i would have liked.
I was on track with loads of MX5s and i was struggling through druids and clearways to get the power down and keep up with some of them on corner exit. Through the quicker corners like paddock, it had a good feel and balance.
So, I love the engine and gearbox, the rawness the general grip and handling but im now leaning towards something RWD, in theory then the S2000 should fit the bill? However i have heard mixed views particularly around the steering feel. Would it actually be a step forward, should i start tweeking the teg?
What are peoples thoughts? anyone who's driven both care to comment?
I'm not familiar with those particular tyres, but there are lots of tyres out there that will overheat on track and become almost useless.
My old ITR had a pair of Firestones on the front that I tried to kill at Croft. After 3 or 4 laps they would overheat and lose a huge amount of grip- as in one of the quickest cars on track that session to pretty much the slowest in slow corners within 2 laps.
Still didn't kill them, either...
My old ITR had a pair of Firestones on the front that I tried to kill at Croft. After 3 or 4 laps they would overheat and lose a huge amount of grip- as in one of the quickest cars on track that session to pretty much the slowest in slow corners within 2 laps.
Still didn't kill them, either...
The only tyre-related point is likely to be the sidewall stiffness, which then becomes a trade-off between pressure (for precision/immediacy) and temperature (for grip/longevity).
Not driven an MX-5 on track, but the diff on the 'teg SHOULD mean you can get the power down as early as they can (at least the diff-less ones). Can I ask how many trackdays you've done and how much tuition you've had, before I make any further suggestions?
Re: S2000 - tricky one...it's quicker, it's well-suited to circuit-work, and it's got the advantages of being rwd and being a (stiff) convertible. But you DON'T get as much feedback as in the ITR, and on-road you don't really feel like pushing to 10/10ths unless you've a fair-bit of space to catch it. So it depends if the car will be a road-car with occasional track-use or a genuine half-and-half...if mainly a road car I'd keep the 'teg (I did!
).
Not driven an MX-5 on track, but the diff on the 'teg SHOULD mean you can get the power down as early as they can (at least the diff-less ones). Can I ask how many trackdays you've done and how much tuition you've had, before I make any further suggestions?
Re: S2000 - tricky one...it's quicker, it's well-suited to circuit-work, and it's got the advantages of being rwd and being a (stiff) convertible. But you DON'T get as much feedback as in the ITR, and on-road you don't really feel like pushing to 10/10ths unless you've a fair-bit of space to catch it. So it depends if the car will be a road-car with occasional track-use or a genuine half-and-half...if mainly a road car I'd keep the 'teg (I did!
).I was led to believe the Hankooks were originally intended to be a trackday spec tyre so I'm a little surprised to hear the above tbh. I've only had one chance to test them on track and that was a wet/greasy Oulton last month so hardly a worthwhile test as they tyres never got warm enough to do any damage (this was on an EP3 CTR too btw).
That said, whenever I've run the RE010 (OEM spec tyre for ITR) on track they overheat alarmingly quickly, to the point where I just start "c0cking" about instead of trying to do nice laps. I'm not an aggresive driver fwiw...
Agree with Havoc on the comparison btw, I'll push the ITR far harder on the road than I would dare in S2000s (couple of mates with em who kindly let me drive theirs). Would love to try an S2000 on a track actually.
That said, whenever I've run the RE010 (OEM spec tyre for ITR) on track they overheat alarmingly quickly, to the point where I just start "c0cking" about instead of trying to do nice laps. I'm not an aggresive driver fwiw...
Agree with Havoc on the comparison btw, I'll push the ITR far harder on the road than I would dare in S2000s (couple of mates with em who kindly let me drive theirs). Would love to try an S2000 on a track actually.
Im not the most experienced trackdayer but without being too big headed i have done my fair share of (proper) karting so in theory i know what im doing! lol.
Saying that obviously the teg is FWD so is a somewhat new experience on the limit. when i say couldnt get the power down it wasnt spinning wheels etc, just the nose was starting to push wide on corner exit. I didnt want to just throw more lock at the situation, was having to be a bit more patient on the throttle.
WRT tyres, dont get me wrong they are good, but the car moves around on them a bit too much i think, too long to take a set in the corner, down to sidewall flex/pressures?
I would be using it for road work mostly, with the odd trackday. Sounds almost a compromise for the odd occasion when you can really get after it.
Saying that obviously the teg is FWD so is a somewhat new experience on the limit. when i say couldnt get the power down it wasnt spinning wheels etc, just the nose was starting to push wide on corner exit. I didnt want to just throw more lock at the situation, was having to be a bit more patient on the throttle.
WRT tyres, dont get me wrong they are good, but the car moves around on them a bit too much i think, too long to take a set in the corner, down to sidewall flex/pressures?
I would be using it for road work mostly, with the odd trackday. Sounds almost a compromise for the odd occasion when you can really get after it.
ady_GTi said:
WRT tyres, dont get me wrong they are good, but the car moves around on them a bit too much i think, too long to take a set in the corner, down to sidewall flex/pressures?
I would be using it for road work mostly, with the odd trackday. Sounds almost a compromise for the odd occasion when you can really get after it.
1) Probably is the sidewall flex, yes - had exactly the same when I went from S02's to T1-R's on the S2000. Hence my comment about the trade-off between responsiveness and grip/longevity - lower pressure = more grip and (to a degree) better tyre-wear, but higher-pressure = more responsiveness/precision. Traction out of corners won't be the sidewalls though, that'll (mainly) be the limits of grip - despite the diff and the great chassis, it IS still a fwd car.I would be using it for road work mostly, with the odd trackday. Sounds almost a compromise for the odd occasion when you can really get after it.
2) Stick with the ITR. An MX-5 is wonderful to drive, but the engine just can't compare...unless you go FI...and then you need to upgrade the rest of the package to cope. S2000 isn't as good on the road. (Quiet) Wet roundabouts it's fantastic fun, but B-roads I'll take the 'teg every time.
Tyres is a tricky subject now with the ITR...there's a whole sub-forum for them on itr-dc2.com. RS2's are rated quite highly EXCEPT for the sidewall stiffness...and you've found how that affects the car. I've just fitted some Hankook Ventus K110's (the V12 Evo) as a wet-weather set, and they're a lot better than the RE010's - more grip, more progression, and the sidewalls aren't TOO bad either...but I doubt that's a trackday tyre. Yoko are bringing out an AD08 that might suit the car next year...
I've just bought a MY00 S2k having previously owned a 250bhp mk1 MX5 turbo. A stock S2k with an aftermarket intake is as fast as the MX5 turbo but the mx5 is way better when it comes to handling. By all accounts the S2k is very capable, has wider rubber and a Torsen LSD, the problem is that it just doesn't communicate what is going on under the front wheels so it doesn't inspire confidence like the MX5 does.
That said, it is very fast, comfortable, has leather/ac, an electric roof and looks much better than either the ITR or MX5.
That said, it is very fast, comfortable, has leather/ac, an electric roof and looks much better than either the ITR or MX5.
maz8062 said:
I've just bought a MY00 S2k having previously owned a 250bhp mk1 MX5 turbo. A stock S2k with an aftermarket intake is as fast as the MX5 turbo but the mx5 is way better when it comes to handling. By all accounts the S2k is very capable, has wider rubber and a Torsen LSD, the problem is that it just doesn't communicate what is going on under the front wheels so it doesn't inspire confidence like the MX5 does.
That said, it is very fast, comfortable, has leather/ac, an electric roof and looks much better than either the ITR or MX5.
That said, it is very fast, comfortable, has leather/ac, an electric roof and looks much better than either the ITR or MX5.
- especially re: confidence(Although I'd say the MX-5 was way better at communicating and a little better-handling....S2000 very good if you have the cojones to trust it...)
The way to drive the S2000 quickly is to drive it 'from the rear' - (especially with braces fitted) you get a fair bit more feedback from the rear than you do from the front. However, this is a lot safer to do on-track than on-road, and was one of the reasons I didn't often push the S2000 above 8/10ths on the road...
havoc said:
- especially re: confidence(Although I'd say the MX-5 was way better at communicating and a little better-handling....S2000 very good if you have the cojones to trust it...)
The way to drive the S2000 quickly is to drive it 'from the rear' - (especially with braces fitted) you get a fair bit more feedback from the rear than you do from the front. However, this is a lot safer to do on-track than on-road, and was one of the reasons I didn't often push the S2000 above 8/10ths on the road...
Cheers
Edited by maz8062 on Tuesday 8th December 11:19
maz8062 said:
havoc said:
- especially re: confidence(Although I'd say the MX-5 was way better at communicating and a little better-handling....S2000 very good if you have the cojones to trust it...)
The way to drive the S2000 quickly is to drive it 'from the rear' - (especially with braces fitted) you get a fair bit more feedback from the rear than you do from the front. However, this is a lot safer to do on-track than on-road, and was one of the reasons I didn't often push the S2000 above 8/10ths on the road...
Otherwise experiment with tyre pressures...or go the whole hog and fit Nitrons, which tame the rear-end's propensity to "fidget/porpoise" under high-load cornering on uneven tarmac. (The braces reduce this but don't eliminate it).
BTW - I don't recommend driving the car 'from the rear' on public roads...it can still be a little snappy, even with braces and the right geo, and I don't want to be responsible for someone bending their P&J. I tended to drive it (in the dry) within its limits* unless I had a lot of road, at which point I occasionally tried to showboat, and (in the wet) I played around a little more where I had the space, because the limits were so much lower. Always when there were no other cars/people to get hurt if I cocked-up though...
* Driven smoothly you can still lose your license on almost any road in the country without troubling dry-weather grip.
havoc said:
ady_GTi said:
WRT tyres, dont get me wrong they are good, but the car moves around on them a bit too much i think, too long to take a set in the corner, down to sidewall flex/pressures?
I would be using it for road work mostly, with the odd trackday. Sounds almost a compromise for the odd occasion when you can really get after it.
Tyres is a tricky subject now with the ITR...there's a whole sub-forum for them on itr-dc2.com. RS2's are rated quite highly EXCEPT for the sidewall stiffness...and you've found how that affects the car. I've just fitted some Hankook Ventus K110's (the V12 Evo) as a wet-weather set, and they're a lot better than the RE010's - more grip, more progression, and the sidewalls aren't TOO bad either...but I doubt that's a trackday tyre. Yoko are bringing out an AD08 that might suit the car next year...I would be using it for road work mostly, with the odd trackday. Sounds almost a compromise for the odd occasion when you can really get after it.
So would you say the steering feel is an issue throughout all the S2000 revisions? Did they make it any better with the later suspension changes? I see you mentioned the braces, is there much else that can be done to improve the problem?
Just went out for a hoon in the teg, even in the cold and damp i felt totally confidant in the front end. Will be staying for a while, just interested in your opinion.
Just went out for a hoon in the teg, even in the cold and damp i felt totally confidant in the front end. Will be staying for a while, just interested in your opinion.
Only drove 2 '03 cars and an '04 car. Didn't notice much difference with the steering feel - IMHO geometry differences between cars could account for more difference in feel than the 'overall' difference between an '03 and an '04. Not sure about '06 and '08 revisions...IIRC they were more tuned to suspension settings, rather than geo, bushing, or other stuff such as king-pin inclination and EPS 'tuning'...
So I'd guess "yes" - all S2000's suffer from insufficient steering feel.
So I'd guess "yes" - all S2000's suffer from insufficient steering feel.
ady_GTi said:
So would you say the steering feel is an issue throughout all the S2000 revisions? Did they make it any better with the later suspension changes? I see you mentioned the braces, is there much else that can be done to improve the problem?
The later the model the better the chassis. Significant changes in '04, '06 and '08.I've tracked an MX5 (2004, 146bhp) and an S2000 (2006, standard).
MX5's lap time 1.55-1.57
S2000's lap time 1.47-1.50
MX5 could be driven consistently right at the limit, much harder to be consistent in the 'S', love the learning curve though.
cheddar said:
ady_GTi said:
So would you say the steering feel is an issue throughout all the S2000 revisions? Did they make it any better with the later suspension changes? I see you mentioned the braces, is there much else that can be done to improve the problem?
The later the model the better the chassis. Significant changes in '04, '06 and '08.MX5 could be driven consistently right at the limit, much harder to be consistent in the 'S', love the learning curve though.
2) Agree with that...S2000 feels more rewarding when you (finally) get it right, MX5 makes you feel the hero more easily, more of the time.
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1) Rubbish. NO changes to the chassis at all, only the spring and damper rates (not sure which years these happened - '02 and '04 for certain) and the geometry set-up (which any owner can do).
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+
Rear control arms lengthened, stiffer cross members, joints and bulkhead, revised steering rack ratio, thinner rear anti roll bar, larger (staggered) tyre size.
That's just for '04 and probably the most significant.
Other (lesser) changes took place, yes, mainly spring and damper rates that all had subtle but helpful influences on handling.
Did the steering become a talkative puppy with these evolutionary changes? No, nothing like, but the feel through the seat of the pants improved as did the drivers confidence to 'push on' on give and take roads.
cheddar said:
Rear control arms lengthened, stiffer cross members, joints and bulkhead, revised steering rack ratio, thinner rear anti roll bar, larger (staggered) tyre size.
That's just for '04 and probably the most significant.
Other (lesser) changes took place, yes, mainly spring and damper rates that all had subtle but helpful influences on handling.
Did the steering become a talkative puppy with these evolutionary changes? No, nothing like, but the feel through the seat of the pants improved as did the drivers confidence to 'push on' on give and take roads.
Re: tyres - the original S02's had a very 'square' shoulder to them which gave them effectively a 245 footprint anyway. Plus the RE's have less dry grip than the S02's, which were half-way to a track-day tyre.
Re: stiffer cross-members and bulkhead - anyone with an earlier car can buy and fit front- and rear cross-braces for ~£300 which will do at least the same amount.
Re: steering ratio - can't say as I noticed any difference when test-driving a few. Which way?
Re: rear ARB...that'll just increase the tendency to understeer and reduce body control...can't see that being a particularly good move...IMHO (and many on s2ki) Honda were trying to make the car 'safer' (sic) not more involving.
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